Flinters: Sulphurous for prime, Sulphur Free for Main Charge?

[flmason]

Hi All,
  I've read a fair BP mixture of 80% KNO3 + 20% Charcoal (by weight) gives decent performance in percussion guns, but often fails to ignite in flinters. Further that sulphur brings the ignition temp. down 100C or so and makes flinters reliable.

Was wondering if one could stretch one's sulphur supply by say, using sulphur just to make priming and using the 80/20 mix at the main charge?

Anyone know anything?

(Have to admit, I'm as fascinated with powder making as the actual guns, though, someday, I ever get a decent workshop again, will have to try making a lock or two.)

[coyotejoe]

While it may be "fascinating" I strongly advise against making blackpowder at home. I seems simple enough but with hundreds of years of acquired experience and all the very best precautions in place powder plants still blow up now and then, usually with the cause of the explosion remaining unknown. Even if you manage to avoid disaster your home brewed powder will likely be very inferior to the commercial product. Even ignoring the danger, the end product just won't be worth the time, effort and expense.

[flmason]

While it may be "fascinating" I strongly advise against making blackpowder at home. I seems simple enough but with hundreds of years of acquired experience and all the very best precautions in place powder plants still blow up now and then, usually with the cause of the explosion remaining unknown. Even if you manage to avoid disaster your home brewed powder will likely be very inferior to the commercial product. Even ignoring the danger, the end product just won't be worth the time, effort and expense.

Seems a fair admonition. Yet at the same time I run into literature that makes is sound like a rather everyday thing for a fireworks technician to do. So I feel as though there's a mixed message floating around in cyber space.

Know anything about obtaining appropriate pyrotechnical training?

[necchi]

Hi All,
  I've read a fair BP mixture of 80% KNO3 + 20% Charcoal

It's 75-15-10, boy.

You read this link;

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=173889.0

Then you read ALL 21 downloads on this link;

http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm


Then you come back and I'll tell ya what you think you need to know. Bill Knight is a world renouned expert that has even shared here years back..
You wanna learn about powder? Then get yourself schooled proper. You read all those downloads.  You get that much reading done I'll ga-run-tee you won't be pissin around burning macaroni

[flmason]

Hi All,
  I've read a fair BP mixture of 80% KNO3 + 20% Charcoal

It's 75-15-10, boy.

You read this link;

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=173889.0

Then you read ALL 21 downloads on this link;

http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm


Then you come back and I'll tell ya what you think you need to know. Bill Knight is a world renouned expert that has even shared here years back..
You wanna learn about powder? Then get yourself schooled proper. You read all those downloads.  You get that much reading done I'll ga-run-tee you won't be pissin around burning macaroni

80%/20% is an accepted mixture for *sulphur-less* black powder.

I have read through a bit of, "Preparatory Manual for Black Powder and Pyrotechnics". It's not as though I've done no research, LOL! FWIW I already downloaded Knights .pdf files weeks ago.

And I'm not a "boy", BTW. I'm old enough to be a grandfather.

And if I want to screw around with wheat based charcoal, I'll do it. May not work worth diddly though, LOL!

You're gonna start giving me "boy" crap I really don't need to hear it.

For Christ Sake, vulcanized rubber was invented in a kitchen oven.

[necchi]

sorry, your quearies just simply reminded me of a juvinile recently infatuated with the Anarchists Cookbook.
They've been making Black powder for 4000 years, there's not much you can do, It's like trying to re-invent the wheel.

I thought maybe you where interested in a quality end product, you'll get no more guff from me. My apologieze.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Just keep the amounts down enough that ifn' things go awry you don't take anyone with you.

Just do a risk-benefit analysis and decern for yourself if the benefits outweigh the risks.  Some people don't think the benefits involved in hunting outweigh the risks of gettin' shot.  Same people might think it's worth driving through the dark side of town to take in the Opera though. 

[flmason]

sorry, your quearies just simply reminded me of a juvinile recently infatuated with the Anarchists Cookbook.
They've been making Black powder for 4000 years, there's not much you can do, It's like trying to re-invent the wheel.

I thought maybe you where interested in a quality end product, you'll get no more guff from me. My apologieze.

Oh no worries. Let me apologize. I realized this a.m. that maybe you don't know the context I'm working in. Several "thought experiments" if you will. So let me elaborate.

1) The point of this thread was basically - "If I created sulphur free powder, with it's attendant higher ignition temp. (and less smoke) can it be used in a flintlock primed with lower ignition temperature sulphurous powder?"

Two reasons for this. a) extend sulphur supply. b) Flinters don't need percussion caps. Hence one less thing to have to purchase in a primative situation. I.e. I can make flints.

2) Next up... "Can one walk into any grocery store and somehow, through knowledge of basic chemistry, etc. create a usable black powder for said flinter?"  The burned macaroni was an accident that lit a light bulb, that's all. I also charred up some Bounty Paper Towels and cardboard today as well and put it in some plastic containers for future testing. Heck if 2 lbs of pasta or a roll or two of paper towels will let me make a few pounds of usable powder right in my kitchen, great!   If not, well I hear Edison went through thousands of filaments before his bulb worked.   Worst case, I can mix the crappy charcoal with beeswax and naptha and use it for shoe polish, right, LOL!

3) Beyond that... "If I was to end up in a survival situation with just my clothes, how do I survive?"

So just some of the questions I've been reasearching.

I'm certainly interested in a quality product as well. So don't fee "blown off". On paper it just looked like you were on the attack for some reason, and I felt like, "What's I say? I'm just engaging in some research?"

So anyway, no doubt, if I had access to investment bankers I could just do a factory process properly and sell the results. Heck if I even had a decent workshop these days, I could do better. But that's not the situation I find myself in. So yes, I an "pissing around" some, but hopefully in a way where I learn a few things.

[flmason]

Just keep the amounts down enough that ifn' things go awry you don't take anyone with you.

Just do a risk-benefit analysis and decern for yourself if the benefits outweigh the risks.  Some people don't think the benefits involved in hunting outweigh the risks of gettin' shot.  Same people might think it's worth driving through the dark side of town to take in the Opera though. 

LOL! I hear that.

Yes, I agree. I worked in a power transistor plant decades ago. Worked with many strong chemicals. Even with proper procedures I ended up with small hydroflouric acid burns here and there. So I couldn't agree more. Even the idea of grinding KNO3 in a mortar worries me some. Finding a safe alternative to dry corning is a prime concern on my mind, for example.

Safety concerns are also why I'm focused on flinters here. I'm not really willing to play with priming compounds. Too scary for me with what I have available.

Anyway, I'm not up for getting hurt. I'm basically just looking to see if there's a practical, if improvised, method of making a usable black powder without getting hurt.

In a true, "Only the shirt on my back scenario" I'm quite sure a bow is about as elaborate as I could get, and even if I did manage to make decent cordage for the string, I tend to think I'd be eating a lot of plants, LOL! I've also read, and agree, that maybe trapping and snaring is a better way to provide in said situation, since traps work 24x7.

Anyway, bottom line. I'm not interested in mishaps even if I'm engaging in some experimentation with charcoals as mentioned in the other thread. (I mean clearly, everywhere you look you find, "Charcoal briquettes suck, willow rules!" Just wondering what else that's commonly available might be acceptable. For example, I've found that art stores often, at ridiculous prices, have willow charcoal for drawing.)



P.S. Thanks everyone for being concerned about the safety and quality aspects. Sorry if I wasn't clearer in the original posting.

[flmason]

Hey All,
   I think the main question here got lost...

Does using regular black powder for the prime, and a harder to ignite powder for the main charge work? (Say even Pyrodex or 777 rather than some sulphurless concoction of my own for the main charge.)

Motivation? Maybe less smoke or less fouling.

[Trapper-Jack]

It will work.  I've had good success with using a couple grains of black priming powder down the barrel first followed by a regular charge of Pyrodex.  Primed the pan with black powder and it will go off just as well as if I was using straight black powder.  Accuracy was good and with a long string of shots, the fouling was softer.