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Offline LaOtto222

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Guns for Deer
« on: September 27, 2009, 01:48:57 AM »
What are you going to use this year for Deer during gun season? I haven't decided yet. I have a 357 Max, 44 Mag Handi and 44 Mag Marlin 1894 ready to go. I also have an 12 gauge Ithaca Deer Slayer w/20" barrel, but I do not think I will use it, this year.
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Offline Forestclimber

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2009, 03:14:39 AM »
You need a muzzleloader.
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 03:16:33 AM »
 My opening day anti deer line up, looks somthing like this.
I will be toting my old faithful Moss 500, also My T/C Contender 14" bull .357 max. My boy is planning on carrying the H&R 44. Daughter said she is hunting this year, probably toting my boys Mossy 20.

 Muzzle loader Knight Disc will come out later in the season. ;)

Lonny
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 04:44:27 AM »
.45LC Handi with 225gr Barnes XPB at 1860fps is my "go to" deer gun!  It never fails to produce meat.

This could change if I have time and a little luck.  Time to put together a load for the .357 Maxi Handi and/or luck fitting the .500 S&W Handi barrel to one of my receivers. Then,of course, I would need time to develop a load for it too.

All this in 2 weeks along with a newborn baby I haven't seen for 6 weeks. ::) I just better stick to the .45LC this year. ;)  My baby is too cute to take too much time away from once I return home. :)

Thanks, Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
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Offline Hank in Indiana

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2009, 05:04:50 AM »
1895 Marlin 45-70 loaded with 45-50 cartridge. 45 caliber, 300 gr JHP, in a case 1.625" long, 1 min accuracy avg vel 1450 fps.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2009, 06:14:54 AM »
Quote from: Hank in Indiana on September 27, 2009, 05:04:50 AM
1895 Marlin 45-70 loaded with 45-50 cartridge. 45 caliber, 300 gr JHP, in a case 1.625" long, 1 min accuracy avg vel 1450 fps.

I'm not any kinda expert so, I'd recommend you check with the Indiana DNR to see if it's legal to use a firearm chambered in an illegal chambering such as the 45-70 which is specifically stated as illegal even tho the cartridge you are using in it may be legal. The same would hold true if you were carrying a 460S&W loaded with 454 Casull ammo.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf

Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt.

Violation Penalties
Any person who takes a deer in violation
of any regulation will be penalized $500 in
addition to any other penalty under the law.
Equipment such as guns and vehicles used
in violation of fish and wildlife laws may be
seized for evidence, and upon conviction,
confiscated at the discretion of the court.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-huntguide_lowres.pdf
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2009, 11:49:10 AM »
 Dinny let me help ya here, I will take the 357 off your hands. One less you have to worry about.

 Also as far as the 45-70 goes, i agree. Should check with the DNR. CYA is the best policy here.


Lonny
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 11:56:46 AM »
Quote from: Lon371 on September 27, 2009, 11:49:10 AM
Dinny let me help ya here, I will take the 357 off your hands. One less you have to worry about.
Lonny

Doubtful, very doubtful. You would have better luck talking my mother out of her .357mag Handi. ;) Nahh still very doubtful.  :D

Thanks, Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Hank in Indiana

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 12:30:27 PM »
I'm not shooting a 45-70 cartridge. I know that it is illegal. The case length is .480" to long. That is why I'm not hunting with a 45-70. The gun is not defined in the statute as all of the guns are capable of firing an illegal cartridge. A 357 mag can fire a 38 special, illegal. A 44 mag can fire a 44 Russian, illegal. A 45 LC can fire a 45schofield, illegal. A shotgun can fire buckshot, illegal. That is why the weapon is not defined by state law, only the cartridge. My cartridge complies with the statute in every aspect. The DNR doesn't interpret the statute the prosecuter in the county where you hunt does.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2009, 12:38:27 PM »
Quote from: Hank in Indiana on September 27, 2009, 12:30:27 PM
I'm not shooting a 45-70 cartridge. I know that it is illegal. The case length is .480" to long. That is why I'm not hunting with a 45-70. The gun is not defined in the statute as all of the guns are capable of firing an illegal cartridge. A 357 mag can fire a 38 special, illegal. A 44 mag can fire a 44 Russian, illegal. A 45 LC can fire a 45schofield, illegal. A shotgun can fire buckshot, illegal. That is why the weapon is not defined by state law, only the cartridge. My cartridge complies with the statute in every aspect. The DNR doesn't interpret the statute the prosecuter in the county where you hunt does.

  I'm glad you got the low-down on it, because I didn't know myself. I have always been of the mindset that the ammo has to match the gun and likewise with no exceptions authorized. Sure would hate to see a fellow GBO buddy having any problems stemming from something we could have helped with. :(  What kinda friends would we be then?  ???

Thanks, Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2009, 12:56:30 PM »
Forestclimber - I owned a T/C Renegade 54 caliber a lot of years ago. That was long before sabot bullets and Pyrodex. To me, it was a royal pain. To get it to shoot decently, I had to put in a tightly patched ball, so tight I had a very difficult time getting it down the barrel. After shooting it a few times, it was time to clean it up, now it WAS a real pain in the a**. That burnt FFg powder went every where :o Even when it shot it's best, I could out shoot it with my Ithaca deer slayer. It went bye-bye. Every time I consider getting another BP rifle, I just think back to those bad old times and the thought quickly leaves me. If you or others enjoy shooting the old timey rifles (that are really new), more power to ya - just not for me. I might consider a Savage ML-10 and shoot modern powder in it. Though I have not checked with the IDNR to see if that would be legal or not. Just do not give me any thing with corrosive powder in it - I would rather be shooting as cleaning ;)

Hank in Indiana - I would also check with the IDNR - I think they would frown on a rifle head stamped case, I do not care how short it is. I believe they say it needs to be a pistol case of not more than 1.605" or 1.625" in length (not sure on that)....You can do as you wish - it will not be me that has to pay a fine, so that is up to you to figure out. There are plenty of cases that fit the bill, 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 445 Super Mag, 357 Mag, 357 Maximum, 500 S&W to name a few. I have never shot a 500 S&W, but my understanding is; it will let you know when it goes off in a big way. If that is not enough to knock a deer flat or Elk for that matter, then I sure do not want to meet up with him in the woods. ;D  
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Offline schoolmaster

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2009, 01:23:06 PM »
There are some guys here in Indiana that are taking a 25 caliber wsm case I believe and shortening and necking up to 35 caliber for a bolt action repeating rifle. So I don't see why the short 45-70 wouldn't be OK. I saw a massive revolver that shot the 45-70 round and TC has single shot pistols for it so it is a pistol round. Just one I wouldn't want to shoot. My number one choice for deer hunting this year is my Savage muzzleloader with a .45 cal Pac Nor barrel. It is a tack driver at 200 yards.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2009, 01:36:37 PM »
Quote from: schoolmaster on September 27, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
There are some guys here in Indiana that are taking a 25 caliber wsm case I believe and shortening and necking up to 35 caliber for a bolt action repeating rifle. So I don't see why the short 45-70 wouldn't be OK. I saw a massive revolver that shot the 45-70 round and TC has single shot pistols for it so it is a pistol round. Just one I wouldn't want to shoot. My number one choice for deer hunting this year is my Savage muzzleloader with a .45 cal Pac Nor barrel. It is a tack driver at 200 yards.

Is this the one you speak of?  The .358 Indy? Interesting, but requires a rebarrel. 

http://wildcatintel.com/blog/?cat=7 Scroll down to mid-page.

Thanks, Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 01:49:33 PM »
 If they allow the .358 Indy, I know what my next rifle will be ;) Those bullets will be smoking if they match the .358 winchester. 2200 to 2700 fps wow



Lonny
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 02:18:05 PM »
Quote from: Lon371 on September 27, 2009, 01:49:33 PM
If they allow the .358 Indy, I know what my next rifle will be ;) Those bullets will be smoking if they match the .358 winchester. 2200 to 2700 fps wow Lonny
 
  It has to be rebarrelled on a WSSM rifle action.  That will cost ya!

~Dinny
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline schoolmaster

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 03:51:50 PM »
The cartridge I am refering to is the .358 BFG.  Just type in BFG cartridge and you can get on their website. They make several different calibers on the wsm and wssm cartridge case. It is an expensive proposition but they get 180 grain bullets at about 2600 f/s.
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 07:46:58 PM »
 BFG would be nice if it was realistic ::). That is not for the common man price wise. If I did have that to blow on a new barrel, dies, casings, There is no way I would haul that out to the woods to hunt with. That kind of pricing is why I like my Mossy's and H&R and Contenders. If I needed long range, I work harder with my Knight disc.

Lonny
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 01:38:38 AM »
I stand corrected - Any case that is not over 1.625" or under 1.16" long is going to work. They made the law vauge enough to let wildcat cases into the mix. I am sure that was not thier intent, but with wording like

"Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches."            ...It throws a lot of possibilities out there, if you want to go through the bother and expense.

of course it is titled

"Rifles with pistol cartridges"    ...I guess if you make the case short enough, it is a pistol case.

I will still stick with the "traditional" cases - I do not think a deer is going to know the difference between a hot loaded 44 Mag or 45 Colt and a 358 Indy. Rarely, is a deer shot over 100 yards around here so I see no advantage.

A 45-70 cut down should work and if it functions in a lever action, why not? I just do not see much advantage of it over say a 500 S&W or a 445 Super mag unless you already have the rifle and do not have to purchase another - making a deer rifle on the cheap.

Good Luck to all and Good Hunting
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Offline theoldarcher

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 04:47:19 AM »
.50 Cal. T/C for the black powder opener in December.

Arch
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Offline Hank in Indiana

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2009, 01:17:26 AM »
Yesterday I got to play with a new Ruger 77-44 stainless. It was short, light, and felt really nice. My only concerns are the many negative reports on the accuracy. The price was $535. I was tempted.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2009, 02:04:28 AM »
Quote from: Hank in Indiana on September 30, 2009, 01:17:26 AM
Yesterday I got to play with a new Ruger 77-44 stainless. It was short, light, and felt really nice. My only concerns are the many negative reports on the accuracy. The price was $535. I was tempted.

Hank,
  FWIW, I think they may have "fixed" the new Ruger 77-44.  Here's a link to a review that shows decent accuracy, certainly capable of killing deer.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-77-44.htm

I have always had a thing for those rifles. It's a real plus that the triggers can be replaced with any aftermarket 77-22 trigger. One slight drawback is the length restriction for reloads, it has a rotary magazine.  It shouldn't be a problem unless you're loading the heaviest bullets. If I didn't already have a semi-auto Ruger 44, I would buy one of the new 77-44s.

Thanks, Dinny(from Iraq)
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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2009, 04:12:07 AM »
This year my plan is to hunt the firearms season with my old trusty Puma 92 44mag, then the muzzleloader season with my encore 209x50.  This year I really really want to get another deer just for the meat.
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Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2009, 12:22:36 PM »
While generally not as accurate as a Remington or a Savage rifle; Ruger has come a long way with their accuracy. A large part of this is when they started to make their own hammer forged barrels. Before that they were buying their barrels from many different manufactures with mixed results.
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Offline mwilson

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2009, 03:28:04 PM »
im taken my 629. sons using his new ruger hunter.
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Offline Dinny

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2009, 08:09:23 PM »
Quote from: mwilson on September 30, 2009, 03:28:04 PM
im taken my 629. sons using his new ruger hunter.

That Ruger looks like it's a shooter!!! :o BTW, the Smith is no slump itself. ;)


Thanks, Dinny



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Handi Family: 357 Max, 45 LC, 45-70, 300 BLK, 50 cal Huntsman, and 348 Win.

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day that my child may have peace"
Thomas Paine

Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2009, 09:46:57 PM »
 Thanks guys. You are now getting me in trouble. Time to go window shopping. I was kind of thinking of the Puma .44, now I need to see the Ruger. Since Dinny wont give up his .357 :D, and would like to have a rifle. If I get in trouble, I am blame you alll! LOL

Lonny
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Offline teddy12b

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2009, 02:38:55 AM »
Quote from: Lon371 on September 30, 2009, 09:46:57 PM
Thanks guys. You are now getting me in trouble. Time to go window shopping. I was kind of thinking of the Puma .44, now I need to see the Ruger. Since Dinny wont give up his .357 :D, and would like to have a rifle. If I get in trouble, I am blame you alll! LOL

Lonny

If you or anyone else is considering a Puma 92 check out Budsgunshop.com!  They have an amazing deal going on right now and I hoep they still have it after the first of the year.  Under $350 brand new shipped to your FFL.  How can you argue with that?

/295/page/1/sort/5a]http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_cat_search.php/cated/40/ITATR_list[2]/295/page/1/sort/5a
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Offline Lon371

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2009, 11:49:26 AM »
 Maybe I am overlooking it, I see nothing 44 under $300.

Lonny
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Offline Old Syko

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2009, 03:12:47 PM »
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Offline mwilson

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Re: Guns for Deer
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2009, 02:31:23 PM »
Quote from: Dinny on September 30, 2009, 08:09:23 PM
Quote from: mwilson on September 30, 2009, 03:28:04 PM
im taken my 629. sons using his new ruger hunter.

That Ruger looks like it's a shooter!!! :o BTW, the Smith is no slump itself. ;)


Thanks, Dinny
 we shot 5 different loads in both guns. the smith did not seem to care what it shot. smallest group was 1.4 biggest was 2.25 for 6 shots at 50yards. ruger was picky. 4 loads went over 3" the last was the one in pick. it went 1.12 for 5 shots.




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