Author Topic: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested  (Read 1660 times)

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« on: September 27, 2009, 06:18:13 AM »
Finally found some at the Outdoor World in Charlotte, bought both bottles they had in stock (at $12 a bottle I was mighty happy too).

NOw I'm looking for 45-70 load data for the 458 150 gr Collar Button, anyone got data?
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2009, 10:34:02 AM »
Fill the case to the base of the seated bullet without compression; this is the max load.
70% of that (in grains) is the starting load.
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Offline gendoc

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 11:21:02 AM »
i am really concerned with the accuracy of that light of a projectile
in a handi 45/70 with its givin twist rate...
i have tried 200-250 with poor results with numerous powders and charges
accuracy came together around 300gr
i have not tried any heavier than that.
i like speed and accuracy to hunt....
i'm not much of a paper puncher except for site'n in
please post your results,
 thanks
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

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burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »
I've used these for a year on rabbits with 15 gr Pyrodex under cornmeal.  About 1" at 50 yards. Case clean-up is a pain though.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline slimak707

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2009, 05:16:49 PM »
i use 12 grains of trail boss on a 405 grain lead cast in my handi rifle. it shoots 1.25" at 100 yards repeatedly with a very very light recoil. i can go back to the burm and recover most of the bullets. very good paper punching load. i havent got a chance to shoot the buffalo classic yet, and havent tried any other projectile weights yet either.

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? loads tested
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2009, 11:43:05 AM »
Out of a 32" barreled H&R Buffalo Classic:

16.5 gr gives a velocity of 1600 fps +/- 20.

10.1 gr gives a vleocity of 1195 fps +/- 5.

Might try lower loads some time, but the 10.1 produced a 50 yard offhand 3 shot group that was an upside down Mickey Mouse, the bottom two a little closer and it would be a cloverleaf. This is higher velocity, but better grouping than my old pyrodex load. 1600 fps load shot more of a pattern than a group, didn't even bother trying to measure.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline peternap

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 02:28:55 AM »
Interesting workup Kevin.
I've enjoyed using Trail Boss but have put it on the back shelf now and am using it for lighter loads only.

I decided to try to work up a hunting load in my 45/70 Guid Gun and it is a pleasant, accurate powder. I used loading information from IMR. IMR had told me TrailBoss was safe in ANY cartridge if you measured the seating depth of the bullet and subtracted it from the depth of the case. Weigh that amount of powder and that is your Maximun load. Deduct 10% and that's your starting load. I did that and worked up with no pressure signs.

I got good groups at 100 yards even with  17 grains.



I had cast 405 grain bullets hard using WW and 2% tin.

While discussing the load on castboolit, one member reminded me that TB wa as fast or a tad faster powder than Unique and I was pushing the limit for the GG.

Your load of Trail Boss is probably above the milder levels suitable for most rifles. It's a relatively large volume of fast burning powder (your charge is noticeably above manual recommended loads) under a relatively heavy bullet. Depending upon how it's used, Trail Boss approximates the burning range of Red Dot on the fast side to Herco on the slow side.

The amount you're using is quite generous, and if it is indeed producing 1500 fps (which I rather doubt) pressures would be very high to get that "estimated" velocity. FWIW, 16 grains Unique gets 1260 fps with a 405 grain Lee bullet in my 22 inch Marlin and that's not really a Trapdoor load either, as it's producing above the level of pressure safe for that type of rifle. Your stubby Guide Gun barrel would get less than this.

I know you've got a stronger built Guide Gun, but the load likely isn't as mild as you think.

I'd say IMR's estimate is rather off, and I'd also counsel some amount of caution, in the sense that you're operating well above the advised levels in the Hodgdon manual, which gives 25,600 CUP with 13 grains of Trail Boss under a 405 grain bullet to obtain 1007 fps. So you can see why I very much doubt 1500 fps with 17 grains, and also why I say that you're operating on the rather high side. FWIW, 13 grains Red Dot gets 1120 fps in my 22 inch barrel, and is a close approximation of the Hodgdon load levels and velocity.

I don't think 17 grains is necessarily well advised, let alone 18. I suppose there's some room to go above the 25,600 CUP level of the 13 grain load, but given that the pressure limit of the Marlin is around 40,000 CUP, and you're 31 percent above the 13 grain charge with 17 grains, and 38 percent above that with 18, you're skating very close to the edge, if not over. 31 and 38 percent more powder will give more than 31 to 38 percent more pressure as the pressure levels of fast powders rise disproportionately to the amount they're increased.

If you really want 1500 fps, Trail Boss isn't gonna get you there safely. Given its proximity in burn rate to other fast powders, I'd suggest not leaning on the powder measure too much. The gun probably isn't gonna blow up, but a low pressure plinker load it ain't.





Since I still hadn't hit the magic 1500 FPS point, I switched back to 4198 and kept the TB for target and plinking loads. It's a shame too because it is a nice clean powder.

Offline peternap

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 03:21:50 AM »
 ,

Offline BBF

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 08:33:02 AM »
I've got some of these 150 gr bullets on order and have only seen the drawing of them. Where is the grease groove on those?
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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 02:12:03 PM »
Looks like this, grease in the rim. Kinda looks like a air rifle pellet.
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline tykempster

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 02:58:15 PM »
I wish someone had a cheap mold with these bullets, I'd try them for sure!

Offline BrianB

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70?
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 03:43:18 PM »
Fill the case to the base of the seated bullet without compression; this is the max load.
70% of that (in grains) is the starting load.

How bulky is Trail Boss? I've never used it, but now I'm curious.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 03:46:39 PM »
Quote
I wish someone had a cheap mold with these bullets, I'd try them for sure!

Ty, you can get some to try here:

http://www.westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html
Deo duce, ferro comitante
With God as my leader and my sword as my companion

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2009, 11:05:08 AM »
If he's carrying a singleshot, don't expect a warning shot!

Offline mtmarfield

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 09:39:14 AM »
   Greetings!

   Some few years back, Lyman made a special run of the old #457130 {See image in previous post}; I believe that I paid $50 for the two that I have. Call Lyman; I'd bet that they still have some on hand.
   I haven't tried mine for "Gallery Loads" yet, but I've cast a few, and they look very good; I believe that it would make a fine .44 Cap&Ball projectile, as well.

               Be Well!

                                    M.T.Marfield

Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2009, 04:18:30 PM »
You'd have to size it down a LOT for a 44.
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Offline BBF

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 05:18:27 PM »
I just had to open the box of those I got from Western bullets and found that they are all greased up.
 MAN !! are they ever small :o when compared to any "normal" weight bullets for that caliber!

I won't do any loading until I get back to Canada in the Spring and see what sort of groups I can get out of my two Handi's
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Offline mtmarfield

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Re: Trailboss and the 150 gr CB for 45-70? - loads tested
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 04:22:12 PM »
   Greetings!

   kevinsmith5, using a .450" Lube/Sizer Die, press the slug in until the front driving band gets to the top of the Die; lube with BP Lube, and push it back out. This sizes the base band just enough to just slip into the chamber of your C&B .44 Revolver, and the larger driving band can be forced down onto the BP charge.
   This is really nothing more than turning the #457130 "Collar Button" Bullet into a 'Maxi-Ball'. It weighs just a bit lighter than a RBall, and has a Very Big lube groove. You C&B Revolver shooters should look into this!

   Be Well!

                  M.T.Marfield