Life-size replica ordnance displays at USNA museum

[cannonmn]

See what you think.  Be honest.

[KABAR2]

 

See what you think.  Be honest.
 



 

Well, I'd say since he is laying the gun on target it's already loaded...... so this gun crew needs more training!  who told the
powder monkey to expose a cartridge like that while the gun is about to be fired?

I would talk to the outfit that outfitted this ship...... those little hooks on the rope will be straighten out when the cannon recoils......
who thought up the cheeks on the mount? how do you dismount the gun if the mount is dammaged and has to be replaced?
who thought up the elevation screw?




what period is this supposed to be? and what references are they using for their carriage design?  Disney? pirates of the Caribbean? 

[dan610324]

isnt it lovely when creative artists without any knowledge will try to recreate something they shouldnt do 

my vote is for pirates of the caribbean, or maybe Disney ?? mmmm , not sure 

[cannonmn]

The "carronade" as it is called in the museum signage looks a lot like the incorrect examples formerly displayed by USS CONSTITUTION in Boston.  Those were created as part of a 1920's restoration.  If I'm not mistaken, the drawings of that item were part of the drawing package sold by mail by the CONSTITUTION museum, and more recently sold in CD form.

I'd like to hear a comment from someone who has those drawings or CD, since I don't think I have it in my files.

[KABAR2]

What's sad is the Navy must have period cannon and carriages that could have been used in the display

they would have been correct and cost the taxpayer far less than the Hollywood cannon they ended up with.

[RocklockI]

imo that is a nice carriage . maybe not for such a large gun .

it needs some iron strapping on the edges . and some on the side too .

[Cannoneer]

When you stop to consider the words that precede the word museum, namely "The United States Naval Academy," it seems to me that it is especially disappointing that the curator and/or the curatorial staff of this establishment do not hold themselves to a higher standard when trying to achieve historical accuracy in their displays; or is it the case that this museum has a very small staff, working with very limited funds? I admire the figures used in these dioramas, and know that these were not cheap to produce, but I personally would rather do without the figures, and have those saved funds redirected towards making the ordnance and tackle more realistic.
I suppose that in the final analysis, these displays are better than nothing; thousands of visitors will enjoy viewing them, without ever wondering about their historical inaccuracies.   

[cannonmn]

The museum just got done with a $17M makeover.  The building was gutted and basically rebuilt.  The displays were left to a contractor, since the museum no longer has an "exhibits" division.  My class was one of five or six classes which shared the $17M bill.  I'm basically pleased with the overall improvement, but exceptions like this are disappointing.  I did a slideshow really quickly to give the Company of Military Historians a glimpse of the new displays.  I'll put the link to it here-there are cannons in it so I guess it would be permissible to post here, but it is a bit sword-heavy since the CMH folks seem to like those thiings.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums46/?action=view&current=174cc2f4.pbw

[GGaskill]

I have the CD-ROM previously offered by the NHC and it has several long guns (two 24 pounders and an 18 pounder) and a 32 pounder "carronade" with trunnions.  The plans were made in the late '20's and '30's as part of the ship's restoration at that time.  The NHC has stated that the armament on the ship since about 1900 has been reproductions, so that if you want a gun that looks like those "on the Constitution", then these are what you have seen, notwithstanding the fact that they are not necessarily appropriate for any specific era of the ship.

[Zulu]

Are these iron barrels? Resin? Fiberglass?
Zulu

[Cannoneer]

Zulu,

My guess would be that the tubes are fiberglass.

[cannonmn]

They are some very light composite material, my first thought was "plastic" but then there's plastic and Plastic, plastic, and etc.

[Double D]

I sent the following email with these two photo's attached to USNA Museum.

Subject: Display at USNA Museum

 

I have been told that the two attached pictures are of a display at the USNA Museum.  Can you verify that and tell me what they are supposed to represent?

Here is the response I go this morning:

Mr. Dickens,

 

The first picture represents an English 18-pounder culverin, 8ft-6in long, on a wooden carriage.  We needed a gun that would have been carried on the lower deck of an English 2- or 3-decker in about the year 1650 that would still fit our limited exhibit space.  That seemed to be the best solution.  The carriage admittedly looks odd, though it was copied from a manuscript drawing at the Bodleian Library, Oxford, that shows an English gun and carriage from about 1660, which is close to the date of the entire diorama of men eating and drinking among the guns on the gun deck.  See Adrian Caruana, The History of English Sea Ordnance, v. 1 (Rotherfield, England: Jean Boudriot Publications, 1994), pp. 71, 178-9.  The tackle is admittedly much too lightweight; we’ll fix it in the near future.

 

Your second picture shows a replica of a British 32-pounder carronade on a ship’s quarterdeck from c. 1800.  For sources we turned to a pair of real carronades on display just in front of Preble Hall on the USNA Museum grounds, plus numerous secondary sources like Brian Lavery’s Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War.  We also corresponded with members of the staff of HMS Trincomalee in Hartlepool, England, which is itself armed with replica carronades of about the type and size we were after.  In this instance, the end product wasn’t as close to the originals as we might have wanted, and again the tackle is all out of proportion.  Nor is the gun fitted with a firelock.  We’ve had a replica firelock on order for months and months; when it finally arrives we’ll fit it to the gun, and place its lanyard in the hands of the gun captain mannequin.  I should add that the museum’s ship model curator and I recently went to England, and while there we took the opportunity to travel to Portsmouth where we crawled all over Victory.  We paid special attention to her guns and the manner in which they’re stowed, and came back armed with numerous photographs.  So we know the shortcomings of our guns, particularly the carronade/carriage.

 

We recognize that both of our guns contain errors, as do the carriages, though that isn’t for lack of trying or desire on our part to get things right.  Quite the contrary.  Now that the construction is finished and the gallery open to the public, we’ll attend to shortcomings such as those you noted on the guns/carriages/tackle/fittings.  If you have suggestions, we would welcome them.

 

Best regards,

 

Grant Walker

U.S. Naval Academy Museum

118 Maryland Avenue

Annapolis, MD  21402

Tel: (410) 293-5261

The analyst in me says from reading this Email, that USNA Museum is well aware of what we have discussed here...Lurkers maybe?

[thelionspaw]

Is it just my eyes or is the "Powder MonKey" an attempt at equal opportunity political correctness? Also, they sure look like nuns seated at the table.

[cannonmn]

Thanks for taking the time to inquire, which worked better than my attempt.  I mentioned the issues to the Director's assistant, who said she'd mention it to the director, but she had no feedback for me at the time.  I offered to send an email but they discouraged me from doing that, as if it might irritate the director or something, who knows. 

But you got a good answer, now let's see if they ever cut the inauthentic trunnion off of that gunade, and adust the carriage design accordingly.  I'm not holding my breath, but I do hope it happens. 

[KABAR2]

Mr. Dickens,

 Your second picture shows a replica of a British 32-pounder carronade on a ship’s quarterdeck from c. 1800.  For sources we turned to a pair of real carronades on display just in front of Preble Hall on the USNA Museum grounds,

Best regards,

Grant Walker

U.S. Naval Academy Museum

118 Maryland Avenue

Annapolis, MD  21402

Tel: (410) 293-5261

Cannonmn,

Do you have any photo's of the "Carronaids" in front of Preble Hall ? do they look anything like the "cannon" they are using?

[Double D]

Here is the response I just sent to the email:

Mr. Walker,

Thank you for response.  I must say I am at loss for words. 

I am planning a trip to the east coast next spring.  I do modeling of muzzle loading naval artillery.  I was considering visiting USNA Museum to take some pictures for use in my future projects.  I was hoping for  original or authentic replicas and not fantasy displays.   I am deeply disappointed and will look else where for my research.

[GGaskill]

DD,
      That seems a little more negative than their response warrants.  Certainly appropriate if they don't correct things but if their reply truly represents their intentions, then we should cut them a little slack until they have had a reasonable opportunity to repent their sins.

[Victor3]

I suppose that in the final analysis, these displays are better than nothing; thousands of visitors will enjoy viewing them, without ever wondering about their historical inaccuracies.   

 I find it interesting how we tend to highlight flaws while viewing things through our personal filters.

 Imagine a forum on historical clothing, looking at pictures of this display with a member saying "Look at that powder primate's phony shoes. Preposterous! At least they did a good job on those mortars."

[cannonmn]

Here's one of two very similar carronades on the museum's front steps.  I don't think they studied these too closely if they didn't notice any differences between that and their replica.

One question I had for the museum was why they don't put a sign up stating that these two weapons came from the first (I think) USN vessel named CYANE,

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/c16/cyane-i.htm

 I found that out from the National Archives documents I posted which had that information.  I provided that information to the museum about 25 years ago. 

To me, that's what museums should be best at, taking real objects they have and telling people their significance.  They missed a bet with the two real carronades, but they just re-opened in August, under some pressure to re-open when they knew things weren't completely finished, so I'll give them 6 mos. or so before I bring it up again.  Then if no progress, I'll just write up a suggested sign text.

[KABAR2]

I took a guess that the Museum could not build the displays themselves that would take hiring talent........

and with a small budget that would never do...... it is best to outsource and spread the wealth............

So they are relying on a commercial enterprise for historical accuracy I have done a search and there are very few

outfits that do actual museum displays this one has my vote click on the link and click on Charles Towne Landing exibit

click on the forth image,  you will find simular figures being displayed as in the ones shown here.

I am sending off a email to them to see if they did these displays I'll let you know the results.......


http://www.studiodisplays.com/museums.html


Cannonmn,

It's a pitty the outfit that did these displays did not ask to pull a mold off one of the carronaids the navy owns, it would have been so much easier than creating the

P.O.S. they now display.

[KABAR2]

Another little detail.........



the hanging table may have been used but I wonder weather there would be room on board to stow benches for the crew

to sit on?  More likely they would be sitting on their sea chests or any crates used for stowage.  ships of that era where cramped

another detail the figures are all rather well attired for the class of seaman, and well shod also......  I would hope they are at least

eating salt pork or beef and hard tack.

just one more possible inaccuracy to add to the list.

[Double D]

Yes in deed it is very negative. We here on the Internet are constantly criticized for the spreading of unfounded and uncreditable information. We are told to refer to the experts for the correct or right information.  It's even a rule on this forum, we do not allow interpretation of the law here, we refer you to the appropriate agency-The Experts.

Well, our hobby is cannons and we look to the Experts for correct interpretation, and I would expect that the Museum Staff at USNA would be-should be considered experts.  When an email such as this one is sent out in response to a question, it is taken as the word of an expert.

The references given in the email tell us where they got their interpretation. A quick look at the Virtual Detail Website of the  HMS Trincomalee can only make you wonder if they really did any research. There is little resemblance. Took me less than a minute to determine that.

I spent 5 years working for the government at the Headquarters level.  I know how these projects work. Somewhere along the line plans were presented and a conceptual drawing should have been part of the package.  Right there if properly reviewed, the brakes should have been put on.

Unfortunately this has all earmarks of some SES's pet project handed off to the DOD's equivalent of a harried GS13 for management.  The GS had a budget and a deadline and a dozen other projects on their desk. The GS put the proposal together using the reference listed and let it for bid by contractors.  The contractor came up with the concept and the GS who thinks career track first, checked that it was within budget and would meet the deadline and then  put it on the SES's desk where it was rubber stamped. 

Sometimes it is revisionist history taking place and is only because of public out cry that it is stopped.  The Smithsonian's Enola Gay project of a few years ago is a good example of this.   

I don't think this is the case in this display.  I'm sorry after the 5 years spent at HQ, as a GS13, I am biased in my opinion on this. Spell bias , C-Y-N-I-C-A-L.  I didn't make a very good bureaucrat.

I think this display is representative of the "Beltway think", don't upset the boss’s apple cart.

I think that this quote best sums up the tenor of this thread.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

Us Rank Amateurs aren't fooled.  This should have been done right the first time, without the need to spend more money to correct it later.

[Zulu]

I am in no way defending the display but I promise you this.  Somewhere there is a 10 year old who looked at this display with eyes as big as cannonballs.  He will be one of the new generation of artillerymen.  Think how we all started.  I had a piece of pipe leaned against my homemade fort wall that I pretended to slay Yankees with.  Now I pretend with wooden guns.
Zulu