What the government says you can't do with your TC pistol or rifle.

[expeditionx]

To the ATF Id have to say
"Shall Not be Infringed"

How about those words in gold engraving on the barrel of this eighteen-inch barreled Uberti SAA.revolver?

[Keith L]

lets keep it on topic guys.  This is a TC forum

[bulletnose]

OK~~ Let's get a little more precise about this. Doe's anyone have a serial number chart of frames to be able to know for sure whether that frame was sold as a Contender or a Carbine???

[expeditionx]

I don't know why there seems to be people confused on this issue about the differences.
There is but two categories A. Receivers that never have wore a stock  being original bare frames or pistols

                                      B. Receivers that have been stocked rifles or shotguns (long guns)


According to the 1930's Federal NFA law that applies in all states of the US, making a pistol from a rifle (category B) is illegal unless you have a paid and received a Federal tax stamp for such activity. What defines category B ? Any frame or pistol that has ever been stocked whether by the manufacturer, gun smith, owner, or anyone.
This is the main definition that the DOJ is upholding and it has never been challenged in court. Contrary to popular belief, the TC Supreme Court Case did not change this.
Again, the only thing that matters is if it has EVER had a stock installed. This issue alone is the determining factor when big brother decides to make an example of someone
and send them to prison. It will not matter that you registered it with your local city PD. It will not matter that it was bought as whatever. The one issue that will burn you is
has this receiver ever wore a stock and if it has why is there a rifle barrel less than 16 inches on there if in fact you do not have a Federal Tax Stamp. I think that is pretty clear.
I happen to talk to someone in law enforcement recently and was told that a number of people get caught every year with short barrel long guns.

[expeditionx]

Change might be in the making.
 
http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/8/2/batfe-ruling-2011-4-pistol-to-a-rifle-and-back-to-a-pistol
 
 
 
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

[Grumulkin]

It appears the BATFE has become a bit more sensible.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

[Slowpoke Slim]

Wow,

Finally. I can't believe it. The ATF actually did something that makes sense.

I'm not sure I can get over the shock of it all...

[martineta]

Excellent News!  Thanks for the update.  I have multiple contender and encore frames and its been a pain keeping straight what barrels went with which frame, (not that I tried very hard).  I can now legally toss those worries away!

[shot1]

So if I stumbled through the legal jargon correctly did it say this? It is OK to use a rifle stock on a Contender/Encore with a barrel 16" or longer and then remove the rifle stock and you can put a pistol grip back on and use a barrel shorter than 16" and you will not be breaking the law?

[Junior1942]

I'd like an interpretation by dukkillr.

[Grumulkin]

What it says is:


1.  If your T/C Encore or Contender was originally assembled/sold as a pistol you can legally convert it to a long gun and then back again to a pistol.


2.  You still cannot mount a rifle barrel of less than 16 inch length on a rifle stock without registering it as an SBR (short barreled rifle).  Also, as noted in the document, there is a total length restriction.

[Ladobe]

Thanks for the update Grumulkin.   Nice to see that the BATF has finally caught up with what most folks do anyway.   
 
Your post ought to be made a sticky on both TC forums...

[expeditionx]

Before I wrote that letter now stickied it seemed like everyone thought what they now made legal by ruling was generally already legal.
It seems like that letter  triggered a host of other new letters on other gun boards like AR15.com
I think it caught some major attention and maybe some manufacturers lobbied the government or something like that may have happened.
Rulings like that are usually based on some cause effect relationship. I'm glad some good came from it.
 
 

[Incitatus]

OK, I'm the new guy here, but not new to the Contender world, so I don't want to stir the pot.

Here is how I handle my government's inability to make and enforce rational, logical, common sense rules, laws, case law and interpratations.

My contender frames were bought as "frame only" on 4473's.(or D to D bound book entry) and later booked into my "private collection" (same way I buy 1911/clone frames and bare rifle actions)  My carry/storage case holds 2 frames, 5 short (less than 16 inches) barrel's and 4 "carbine" length barrels, along with several "pistol" grip/forend sets, a shoulder stock and 2 "rifle" forends. (one factory wood and one custom aluminum with bipod) The frames and barrels are stored "bare" (no grips or forends attached).
 

When I get to the range or hunt site, I assemble what I want to shoot and change barrels around as conditions warrent. When I'm done with the task at hand, I disassemble, clean and stow all the parts. By the time I close the case and load it in the truck, I honestly can't tell you which barrel got put on which frame, nor do I care. 'cause neither can a LEO or BATFE Agent.

I agree, some smart alec LEO, BATFE Agent, or overzelous prosecuter could stir up a fuss, but the elements of a crime simply do not exist in any proveable way.

 BTW, when I get my "schedualed" invasions or even a "coffee visit", my Contender case never even gets a look, they seem to worry more over spelling errors in my bound book and the sequence numbers on my repair hang tag claim stubs...

Works for me, YMMV. Paul.

I don't think that the issue was what was or was not strictly legal.  Or what could be proven or disproved or what common sense is.  I think that the issue is that once you are arrested for a felony firearms law violation you are hosed.  Most people simply do not have the funds to defend in order to "prove their point".  Once you are in the legal system, you have lost.  And the real point is that the the charge could really be bogus, it does not matter.  By the time they are done you might very well think that they are doing you a favor by offering a plea bargin.  By the time you get around to explaining how you cleverly registered the receivers one way and how thing are all mixed up and so on, you'll be in the hole $50k in retainers and looking at having the next 3 years of your life being taken up with lawyers.

just my 2p.

[Incitatus]

I don't know why there seems to be people confused on this issue about the differences.
There is but two categories A. Receivers that never have wore a stock  being original bare frames or pistols

                                      B. Receivers that have been stocked rifles or shotguns (long guns)


According to the 1930's Federal NFA law that applies in all states of the US, making a pistol from a rifle (category B) is illegal unless you have a paid and received a Federal tax stamp for such activity. What defines category B ? Any frame or pistol that has ever been stocked whether by the manufacturer, gun smith, owner, or anyone.
This is the main definition that the DOJ is upholding and it has never been challenged in court. Contrary to popular belief, the TC Supreme Court Case did not change this.
Again, the only thing that matters is if it has EVER had a stock installed. This issue alone is the determining factor when big brother decides to make an example of someone
and send them to prison. It will not matter that you registered it with your local city PD. It will not matter that it was bought as whatever. The one issue that will burn you is
has this receiver ever wore a stock and if it has why is there a rifle barrel less than 16 inches on there if in fact you do not have a Federal Tax Stamp. I think that is pretty clear.
I happen to talk to someone in law enforcement recently and was told that a number of people get caught every year with short barrel long guns.

Would this cover virtually every Luger that was ever made?

[expeditionx]

I don't know why there seems to be people confused on this issue about the differences.
There is but two categories A. Receivers that never have wore a stock  being original bare frames or pistols

                                      B. Receivers that have been stocked rifles or shotguns (long guns)


According to the 1930's Federal NFA law that applies in all states of the US, making a pistol from a rifle (category B) is illegal unless you have a paid and received a Federal tax stamp for such activity. What defines category B ? Any frame or pistol that has ever been stocked whether by the manufacturer, gun smith, owner, or anyone.
This is the main definition that the DOJ is upholding and it has never been challenged in court. Contrary to popular belief, the TC Supreme Court Case did not change this.
Again, the only thing that matters is if it has EVER had a stock installed. This issue alone is the determining factor when big brother decides to make an example of someone
and send them to prison. It will not matter that you registered it with your local city PD. It will not matter that it was bought as whatever. The one issue that will burn you is
has this receiver ever wore a stock and if it has why is there a rifle barrel less than 16 inches on there if in fact you do not have a Federal Tax Stamp. I think that is pretty clear.
I happen to talk to someone in law enforcement recently and was told that a number of people get caught every year with short barrel long guns.

Would this cover virtually every Luger that was ever made?

There have been a few exceptions to the rule in previous rulings I came across by doing some searching.  I can't remember if Lugers did or didn't but if they were cleared for import then I would imagine they would have ok from the start. That would be a near impossible case to pin on someone due to the fact that it was imported and sold as a pistol whether or not it had previously been stocked in some foreign armory.
 
And now it would no longer apply anyway because   http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
Something got stirred up enough in the past year to turn the wheels in the federal gun regulation machine.
There is a few stock adaptor manufactures that had everything to lose if things didn't get straightened out in their favor.
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
 
 

[Incitatus]

Read that earlier today.  It is still a no no to have a stocked receiver with a barrel of less than 16 inches though. 

[45-70.gov]

Read that earlier today.  It is still a no no to have a stocked receiver with a barrel of less than 16 inches though.

that has  NEVER been in qustion


just can you have a barrel under 16 inches
after  a shoulder stock  has  EVER been attached??


the letter of the law  says  NO

[Incitatus]

Read that earlier today.  It is still a no no to have a stocked receiver with a barrel of less than 16 inches though.

that has  NEVER been in qustion


just can you have a barrel under 16 inches
after  a shoulder stock  has  EVER been attached??


the letter of the law  says  NO

Actually, the letter of the latest law says "yes".

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

What the letter of the law actually says is that if you have a Contender with a 10" barrel and assemble it as a rifle with a 16"  barrel, it is a violation if you put the shoulder stock on BEFORE you remove the short barrel.  If you put the stock on and then remove the 10" barrel and install the 16" barrel you have, however briefly, created a short barreled rifle and that requires registration.

[45-70.gov]

''the letter of the law''


i was refering to the actual wording....not  ''a letter'' from the law


there have been exceptins
examples  are........rifled barrel over 50 cal  is a destructive divice   .....12 slug gun??
annother  example is  is  577 t-rex......exempted


this  is an interesting thread  for sure
i have been  questioning this   long before we even had computers
i am very familier  with this law.....for a long  time

[Incitatus]

''the letter of the law''


i was refering to the actual wording....not  ''a letter'' from the law


there have been exceptins
examples  are........rifled barrel over 50 cal  is a destructive divice   .....12 slug gun??
annother  example is  is  577 t-rex......exempted


this  is an interesting thread  for sure
i have been  questioning this   long before we even had computers
i am very familier  with this law.....for a long  time

 

Just be damn careful.  We can't go having the ranks of good guys depleted.

[Bigeasy]

This recent letter of policy change may be helpful to some.
 
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
Larry

[45-70.gov]

This recent letter of policy change may be helpful to some.
 
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
Larry

don't even  own a stock...even  unassembled...unless you own a long barrel
[install the barrel first....incase they are watching]


they  just want it so complicated  many will just be afraid to own anything
just  look at the  now gone  ''assault weapons  law''

[Incitatus]

This recent letter of policy change may be helpful to some.
 
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
 
Larry

don't even  own a stock...even  unassembled...unless you own a long barrel[install the barrel first....incase they are watching]

they  just want it so complicated  many will just be afraid to own anything
just  look at the  now gone  ''assault weapons  law''

I think that sums it up.

[SHOOTALL]

Back when shooting IMHSA I had several Contender frames and all were purchased as handguns to avoid problems . They were listed on the fed form as such. As a side note here when buying a lower reciever for an AR the same is done , you buy either as rifle or handgun. The rifle lowers are as low as $60.00 while the same one ( brand) for a handgun runs over $200.00 . I have been told they come from the factory with the ser # listed as rifle or handgun.

[Huntz]

What it says is:


1.  If your T/C Encore or Contender was originally assembled/sold as a pistol you can legally convert it to a long gun and then back again to a pistol.


2.  You still cannot mount a rifle barrel of less than 16 inch length on a rifle stock without registering it as an SBR (short barreled rifle).  Also, as noted in the document, there is a total length restriction.

  If I read this right you can not use a Rifle Frame for a Pistol.   Correct or no?

[expeditionx]

What it says is:


1.  If your T/C Encore or Contender was originally assembled/sold as a pistol you can legally convert it to a long gun and then back again to a pistol.


2.  You still cannot mount a rifle barrel of less than 16 inch length on a rifle stock without registering it as an SBR (short barreled rifle).  Also, as noted in the document, there is a total length restriction.

  If I read this right you can not use a Rifle Frame for a Pistol.   Correct or no?

That is exactly the what the ATF still says about rifles.
The new change only involves frames originally recorded as pistols by TC.
 
I seen where midwayusa had to make a legal statement about this very issue.
 
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=512027

 
Notes on T/CŪ Barrel Length and Rifle/Pistol Configuration:

 
 

• It is possible to purchase the T/CŪ Encore and Contender in a rifle or pistol configuration
   
• Since this is the case, it shall be the responsibility of the consumer to comply with all Federal, State and Local laws regarding barrel length and configuration
   
• It is a violation of Federal Law to use handgun parts, including barrel and/or pistol grip, on an Encore/Contender originally sold as a rifle
• For more information, see: The Gun Control Act of 1968 U.S.C. Title 18, Chapter 44
  
   

[CV66Slim]

Found an interesting description of an Encore frame on an auction site:


Description for Item # 246530481
Like New Encore Stainless Frame with custom hammer extension. No Reserve, bought two of these, only need one. Frame can be converted into a pistol or a rifle, just add barrel, and stock. Highest price gets the gun.

[Austin from NC]

What if you just buy a frame then what?

       Austin

[tcencore3006]

Austin,
The FFL you buy it from has to put down what it is sold as.  Either it is a pistol frame or a rifle frame.  They might sell you just a frame but it is designated as either a pistol or rifle.