Author Topic: What the government says you can't do with your TC pistol or rifle. (Read 38367 times)

expeditionx · « **on:** September 30, 2009, 02:48:21 PM »

I sent out a letter to othe BATF asking for clearification
of the following

Question 1. Would it be a violation of the law to change a
Contender pistol (purchased originally as a pistol from the
manufacturer in 1995) from a pistol configuration to a
rifle configuration (with a shoulder stock and 18 inch barrel)
and then back to a pistol configuration
(no stock and 10 inch barrel)?

Question 2. Would it be a violation of the law to change a
Contender rifle (purchased originally as a rifle from the
manufacturer in 1995) from a rifle configuration
(shoulder stock and 18 inch barrel) to a
pistol configuration (no shoulder stock and 10 inch barrel)?

Question 3. My 3rd question relates to the Contender pistol and carbine kit
specifically addressed in the 1992 U.S. Supreme Court case United States v. Thompson/Center Arms. Would it be a violation of the law to
assemble the this specific kit as a rifle (shoulder stock and barrel
over 16 inches) and then to later reconfigure this same rifle into
a pistol configuration (no shoulder stock and barrel shorter
than 16 inches)?

Question 4. Would it be a violation of the law to change an
Encore pistol (purchased originally as a pistol from the
manufacturer in 2005) from a pistol configuration to a
rifle configuration (with a shoulder stock and 18 inch barrel)
and then back to a pistol configuration
(no stock and 10 inch barrel)?

Question 5. Would it be a violation of the law to change an
Encore rifle (purchased originally as a rifle from the
manufacturer in 2005) from a rifle configuration
(shoulder stock and 18 inch barrel) to a
pistol configuration (no shoulder stock and 10 inch barrel)?

Their reply came today:

expeditionx · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2009, 02:53:58 PM »

A TC rifle can't legally be converted to a pistol.

Placing a buttstock on an original TC pistol (any pistol yes even a contender)
makes it a rifle and it cannot be made legally into a pistol again.
No going back.

There you have it.
"Once a rifle, always a rifle"

Tommyt · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2009, 03:21:56 PM »

expeditionx · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2009, 03:24:39 PM »

Quote from: Tommyt on September 30, 2009, 03:21:56 PM

I think where back to Square One
Interpretation of the KIT

Thanks
For Posting
Tommyt

No sir. A kit refers to a specific set once sold by TC.
The letter distinctly points that out.

A contender pistol or carbine is not a kit.

expeditionx · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2009, 03:46:58 PM »

To even get a multi purpose kit to market it would need to be approved by

the same department tht wrote this reply letter. I don't even know of any besides

the one TC used to sell. If someone could get an AR15 kit approved, they would get rich.

Why hasn't it happened? A little difficult to get them to say yes to that.

Tommyt · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2009, 05:56:40 PM »

expeditionx · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2009, 06:06:41 PM »

I will definitely scan them soon. Don't feel bad about being off track about this issue.

Look how many people had no idea their government would lock them up for doing

what gun experts said was ok to do in their local gun shops for the past 40 years.

Another issue that is well misunderstood is preban guns but thats for another thread.

Quote from: Tommyt on September 30, 2009, 05:56:40 PM

If you can't scan them could you copy a set and send it ,too me
I'll pay the postage
And you say " it Clearly says NO "
Than I can Clearly say,
I was/am wrong in My interpretation of the Contender/Encore
and due to that I will stay way clear of any
discussions of this type from here on Out

Hows that for a settlement

Tommyt

expeditionx · « **Reply #7 on:** September 30, 2009, 06:14:22 PM »

Quote from: Steve P on March 17, 2009, 03:35:27 PM

So, in conclusion, I agree with you 100%. A person cannot take a G2 Contender, Encore, Uzi, Buckmark, etc from pistol to rifle and back again. IT IS ILLEGAL.[/b] However, I can take an original Thompson Center Contender pistol and change it back and forth all I want because the Supreme Court of the United States says I can!

Steve

Sorry Steve
The I can honestly say your not safe in your assumption. The government disagrees.

expeditionx · « **Reply #8 on:** September 30, 2009, 06:16:07 PM »

Quote from: Tommyt on September 30, 2009, 05:56:40 PM

Hows that for a settlement

Tommyt

Its all settled.

Keith L · « **Reply #9 on:** September 30, 2009, 07:14:15 PM »

When you get it scanned and posted I will add this to the stickies at the top of the forum. It will be good for reference in the future when the question comes up next time.

It would be difficult to argue that your original "kit" was one if you were including any aftermarket parts such as barrels or stocks etc.

no guns here · « **Reply #10 on:** September 30, 2009, 07:14:27 PM »

So in reality, no one is going to check a single shot rifle or pistol if you are following all the other laws... I probably won't worry about it. But... Dang Honey... there's this NEW interpretation of the law and I HAVE to buy more frames for my G2 barrels... she won't like it but oh well. Would she rather me buy three more frames or go to jail???

I get more guns!!!

NGH

Keith L · « **Reply #11 on:** September 30, 2009, 07:15:24 PM »

What a great attitude!

no guns here · « **Reply #12 on:** September 30, 2009, 11:49:34 PM »

Not sure if you were serious or kidding...

I was only half serious...

NGH

Keith L · « **Reply #13 on:** September 30, 2009, 11:58:11 PM »

Yea, but how can you not like a good reason to get more Contenders?

Graybeard · « **Reply #14 on:** October 01, 2009, 12:05:15 AM »

I've been trying to tell you guys for years that BATFE wasn't gonna look kindly on changing the TCs back and forth between handgun and rifle. Still to date there is NO CASE LAW only BATFE regulations and interpretations.

With this (not unexpected by me) interpretation now in writing I think anyone will be on real shaky ground switching them back and forth. I do however agree that unless you do something else to call attention to yourself by law enforcement it's unlikely you'll be checked. It would be a real nightmare for them to prove how it came and whether you have ever made it into a rifle or if used whether anyone else ever had.

This whole mess is a real "sticky wicket" and is part of the reason I got rid of all my Contender and Encore firearms a few years back and why it's unlikely I'll ever again own one. I just don't want to be the test case that finally establishes case law on the matter. It will one day happen and when it does I hope the courts over turn the BATFE ruling but as the courts go today I'd sure not bet the farm on it and in effect that's exactly what you are doing if you play the switcharoo game with these TCs. Today it's all about CONTROL and the folks running government at all levels today but especially the federal level are doing their best to CONTROL our lives and take away all freedom and liberty in this once great and now fallen nation. They are just looking for a reason to burn you and send you to jail even tho they don't have room for the REAL CRIMINALS now.

Noreaster · « **Reply #15 on:** October 01, 2009, 01:49:45 AM »

Graybeard you said it perfectly. I'm LEO and have been one for 19yrs. Common sense is out the window these days. I had a case where two scumbag druggie teenage girls baby sat a kid and got him to help them B&E his grandfather's house and steal his guns. They sold the guns for drugs a couple of towns over. Prosecutor and everyone else thought these girls needed help, not jail. But, your passing through my state and don't have a gun permit in this state, but your legal in you own state, (ie your a good citizen, not a scumbag,) and get caught by a cop w/o commonsense. I've seen these people do 18 months in jail ! If you have a Contender pistol and turn it into a rifle (legal length...) and then back into a pistol, common sense you really haven't done anything wrong, but that won't stop a prosecution. All the good guys walk the line and read the laws and make sure they are doing it right (letter of the law,) where as the dirtbags break every law they can and aren't held accountable.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #16 on:** October 01, 2009, 02:35:53 AM »

So, you are at a gun show or buy from a dealer or private sale of a used TC pistol in that form and it was MFG as a rifle than who is to blame?
If it is a licenesed FFL dealer than it should be his responceabilty to check it out before he sells it.
How would a private person know what it was MFG as?
The gun show/action is being held on a sunday, no way to call and see how it left the MFG.
I would dare to say there are hundreds, if not thousands out there that have been changed with no way of knowing what they were MFG as except for a call to TC.
If they should not be changed from a rifle to a pistol then they should be MFG in such a way that it could not be done!

What about the reproduction of the BP pistols with the detachable shoulder stocks?
Would the addition of the stock make it an illegal short rifle?
Just a thought.

LONGTOM

expeditionx · « **Reply #17 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:17:05 AM »

Unless something has changed very recently, black powder guns are not regulated the same way.
It won't hurt to write them and check just in case.

Quote from: LONGTOM on October 01, 2009, 02:35:53 AM

So, you are at a gun show or buy from a dealer or private sale of a used TC pistol in that form and it was MFG as a rifle than who is to blame?
If it is a licenesed FFL dealer than it should be his responceabilty to check it out before he sells it.
How would a private person know what it was MFG as?
The gun show/action is being held on a sunday, no way to call and see how it left the MFG.
I would dare to say there are hundreds, if not thousands out there that have been changed with no way of knowing what they were MFG as except for a call to TC.
If they should not be changed from a rifle to a pistol then they should be MFG in such a way that it could not be done!

What about the reproduction of the BP pistols with the detachable shoulder stocks?
Would the addition of the stock make it an illegal short rifle?
Just a thought.

LONGTOM

blhof · « **Reply #18 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:37:57 PM »

Black powder pistols can be sent through the mail and don't need FFL's, as is posted on the various gun auction sites, except in a few states; Ill. and probably Ca. which require FFL to transfer B/p guns. They fall under antiques and reproductions, but Hillery is trying to close that I've heard, and with the anti's in power, anything is possible.

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:43:43 PM »

Contender and Encore muzzle loaders are treated like any firearm cuz the frame is the same and can be made into a firearm just by switching barrels. You must ship and handle them same as if they had a centerfire barrel on them regardless of whether frame only or with BP barrel or whatever.

Tommyt · « **Reply #20 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:47:51 PM »

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** October 02, 2009, 12:53:26 AM »

Reason for that statement from BATFE is that was established by case law. I suspect that if it ever goes to court the decision will be in favor of the gun owner same as it was for TC in the old court case BUT so far there is no case law on the matter and I for one have no plans to be the test case.

Tommyt · « **Reply #22 on:** October 02, 2009, 02:16:02 AM »

expeditionx · « **Reply #23 on:** October 02, 2009, 03:43:50 AM »

Scanned documents added.

expeditionx · « **Reply #24 on:** October 02, 2009, 04:09:17 AM »

Something recently occured in Montana that has challenged the Federal laws.
The constitution of the US says that congress can regulate interstate commerce.
Because of that part, the National Firearms Act was enacted which regulates
short barrrel shotguns, short barrel rifles, machine guns, noise suppressors, etc...
Montana has declared a state law that non-interstate guns made in Montana
(guns not to leave the state border) are exempt from the Federal law.The ATF
wrote to all the FFL licencees and told them that the new Montana law will
not be respected by the Federal government. It would take a Supreme Court case
specifically addressing this issue to settle it. That is still considering that Supreme
Court Justice Alito has stated before that Congress has no right to regulate non-interstate
commerce. If it ever goes to the Supreme Court, this might be interesting. According to this,
I should be legally able to make a homemade machine gun from non-interstate parts because there is no
case law saying I can't and the constituion says intrastate(within the state) commerce is the state's
jurisdiction. Doing just that I could get 10 years in a federal prison.

expeditionx · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2009, 05:18:56 PM »

Scanned documents added.

Quote from: Tommyt on September 30, 2009, 05:56:40 PM

If you can't scan them could you copy a set and send it ,too me
I'll pay the postage
And you say " it Clearly says NO "
Than I can Clearly say,
I was/am wrong in My interpretation of the Contender/Encore
and due to that I will stay way clear of any
discussions of this type from here on Out

Hows that for a settlement

Tommyt

Incitatus · « **Reply #26 on:** November 11, 2009, 06:53:05 AM »

I sorta thought that this was the position based on other correspondence but it is nice to have it made clear, finally. My solution is to not bring a shoulder stock for a TC into my house.

I sure don't want to be a test case.

red caddy · « **Reply #27 on:** February 18, 2010, 05:38:28 PM »

OK, I'm the new guy here, but not new to the Contender world, so I don't want to stir the pot.

Here is how I handle my government's inability to make and enforce rational, logical, common sense rules, laws, case law and interpratations.

My contender frames were bought as "frame only" on 4473's.(or D to D bound book entry) and later booked into my "private collection" (same way I buy 1911/clone frames and bare rifle actions) My carry/storage case holds 2 frames, 5 short (less than 16 inches) barrel's and 4 "carbine" length barrels, along with several "pistol" grip/forend sets, a shoulder stock and 2 "rifle" forends. (one factory wood and one custom aluminum with bipod) The frames and barrels are stored "bare" (no grips or forends attached).

When I get to the range or hunt site, I assemble what I want to shoot and change barrels around as conditions warrent. When I'm done with the task at hand, I disassemble, clean and stow all the parts. By the time I close the case and load it in the truck, I honestly can't tell you which barrel got put on which frame, nor do I care. 'cause neither can a LEO or BATFE Agent.

I agree, some smart alec LEO, BATFE Agent, or overzelous prosecuter could stir up a fuss, but the elements of a crime simply do not exist in any proveable way.

BTW, when I get my "schedualed" invasions or even a "coffee visit", my Contender case never even gets a look, they seem to worry more over spelling errors in my bound book and the sequence numbers on my repair hang tag claim stubs...

Works for me, YMMV. Paul.

expeditionx · « **Reply #28 on:** February 26, 2010, 03:01:35 AM »

Taxi cab confession?

Quote from: red caddy on February 18, 2010, 05:38:28 PM

OK, I'm the new guy here, but not new to the Contender world, so I don't want to stir the pot.

Here is how I handle my government's inability to make and enforce rational, logical, common sense rules, laws, case law and interpratations.

My contender frames were bought as "frame only" on 4473's.(or D to D bound book entry) and later booked into my "private collection" (same way I buy 1911/clone frames and bare rifle actions) My carry/storage case holds 2 frames, 5 short (less than 16 inches) barrel's and 4 "carbine" length barrels, along with several "pistol" grip/forend sets, a shoulder stock and 2 "rifle" forends. (one factory wood and one custom aluminum with bipod) The frames and barrels are stored "bare" (no grips or forends attached).

When I get to the range or hunt site, I assemble what I want to shoot and change barrels around as conditions warrent. When I'm done with the task at hand, I disassemble, clean and stow all the parts. By the time I close the case and load it in the truck, I honestly can't tell you which barrel got put on which frame, nor do I care. 'cause neither can a LEO or BATFE Agent.

I agree, some smart alec LEO, BATFE Agent, or overzelous prosecuter could stir up a fuss, but the elements of a crime simply do not exist in any proveable way.

BTW, when I get my "schedualed" invasions or even a "coffee visit", my Contender case never even gets a look, they seem to worry more over spelling errors in my bound book and the sequence numbers on my repair hang tag claim stubs...

Works for me, YMMV. Paul.

Dances with Geoducks · « **Reply #29 on:** February 26, 2010, 07:31:27 AM »

To the ATF Id have to say

"Shall Not be Infringed"