A 38 Special necked down? Done. Thanks

[briannmilewis]

I have done web searches and cannot determine if someone has done a 38 SP necked down to 172, 204 or 224. Such a round would have a 1.15cc case capacity, which is exactly halfway between 22 Hornet and 221 Fireball.

Any info?

[yooper77]

Not sure about the necked down 22 caliber in a 38 Special, most any know cartridge has been done before.

Take a look at the 22-454 Casull it would give lots of volume.

yooper77

[SHOOTALL]

22  JET S&W made the gun !

[briannmilewis]

Not sure about the necked down 22 caliber in a 38 Special, most any know cartridge has been done before.

Take a look at the 22-454 Casull it would give lots of volume.

yooper77

Yooper77: The 454 case is too big for my purposes. It has a case capacity of about 2.19cc, my target is the 1.15cc of the 38 case. I figured someone may have done it, just wondering if they had, did they put a name to it so I can research it.

22  JET S&W made the gun !

If the 22 Jet is the 22 Remington Jet, I have also passed on that one because of the cost of the pre-formed brass, and also the difficulty of making Jet cases from the cheap 357 mag cases.

[Reed1911]

Not sure why the cost of pre-formed brass would bother you, PPU and Remington both make it and the PPU is dirt cheap.

[Graybeard]

He tends to set some rather strange criteria to his search for wildcats.

BTW it's not gonna be any easier or more simple to neck down the .38 case than the .357 case and realistically not enough cheaper to matter.

[Blackhawk44]

Do a little more research.  Frank DeHaas (who was better known for his books on bolt actions and single shot rifles) did several wildcats on the necked down .38 special in both revolvers and rolling block pistols.

[mcwoodduck]

There was the 256 Win that was a necked 357 case to 25 caliber.
It may be easier to neck the 256 to 224 and on down to 204 or 177 than starting off with a 38 or 357 case.
You may look for 256 necked to as a search.
Good luck.

[briannmilewis]

Not sure why the cost of pre-formed brass would bother you, PPU and Remington both make it and the PPU is dirt cheap.

Grafs sells 22 Rem Jet brass for $27/100. That is not my definition of dirt cheap. Once fired 38 brass for 6c each is what I call dirt cheap.

He tends to set some rather strange criteria to his search for wildcats.

BTW it's not gonna be any easier or more simple to neck down the .38 case than the .357 case and realistically not enough cheaper to matter.

I do have weird criteria for what I want to do, I will grant you that. Yep, necking down 38 or 357 to .224 provides no advantage one over the other.

Do a little more research.  Frank DeHaas (who was better known for his books on bolt actions and single shot rifles) did several wildcats on the necked down .38 special in both revolvers and rolling block pistols.

I will check that out.

There was the 256 Win that was a necked 357 case to 25 caliber.
It may be easier to neck the 256 to 224 and on down to 204 or 177 than starting off with a 38 or 357 case.
You may look for 256 necked to as a search.
Good luck.

The 256 Win Mag would be a great starting cartridge, but they cost a bloody fortune - $48/50 from Midway. If I could get these for $20/100 or less, then that would be a good starting point.

[SHOOTALL]

100 45acp is 30 now

[mcwoodduck]

If you are looking for cheap. Then you probably do not want to make your own wild cat.
and based on what you want.
Why not just go 22 Hornet? 
Heck, (first typed H E double hockey sticks till I re read it and remembered I would get yelled at)
I'll send you 100 to start with.  PM me with an address.  Be patient it takes me a little while to dig them up or make them.
You then can go 22Hornet Ackley Improved.
It has a rim is already necked down.  There are reamers for the ctg. (you do not have to have a new reamer made as well as dies, forming dies and other.)  Not to mention all the load testing you will have to do.  While 6 grains of green dot is fine for 38 Spl.  will it burst in a 224 version?  Or are you going to use black powder you made with charcoal, match heads you get from free packs, and Pee?  You said cheap.    Sorry.  My family is Scottish and my grandfather had been know to squeeze a quater so hard the Eagle on the back would burp.  Heck the Scotts were the ones that made copper wire.  An Englishman dropped a penny and two Scotts fought over it.
My suggestion of starting with 256 Win was so you would not have to get from 357 hole to 257 and all the crushed $.06 brass along the way.  The .256 may be a buck a peice for a reason.    Also the same guys that made the 256 may have wanted to go to .224 but had problems and compinsated by using the little 60 grain bullet.
I remember reading an article in the early 80's in Guns and Ammo about a guy that necked 45ACP to all the then current pistol rounds.
Having a 45-44, 45-38/ 45-9, 45-32, 45-25, and a 45-22 and made barrels for his 1911.  If I remember he wanted the 22 and did not want to pay for a 22LR conversion kit and ended up spending 6X, help from G&A, on the 1911 project, in barrels dies, springs, reamers, and all than if he had just bought the conversion kit, the other calibers came about as part of the process of getting the brass from 452 to 224.
Bottom line is you may have to spend big bucks to make a CTG out of cheap brass and no matter how much you shoot there may not be a pay back of not using a commercial round.

[SHOOTALL]

218 bee or 219 zipper

[yooper77]

There are tons of ideas about wildcats, but most have no use and are crazy for my standards.

Creating a new wildcat is hard to find, and will be very expensive.

I found this one and its crazy too me.

Based on the 357 SIG commercial cartridge,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.17-357_RG

yooper77

[briannmilewis]

1. I have a 22 Hornet.

2. I have looked at the Bee and the Zipper, the parent cases cost too much to buy or make.

3. I have feedback from Reed's Ammunition that necking down the 38 to 22 requires only one intermediate step (a new die) to 38-28 or 38-25, then the last step 28-22 or 25-22 can be done in one step with existing dies. So it is a lot simpler than most everyone would think.

It may not be the easiest and cheapest way to get there.

[Swampman]

The .256 Winchester dies could be cut down to make a .256 Short using .38 Special cases.  You'd be better off just running .357 Mag brass into .256 Winchester dies.

I'd like to make a rimmed .223 cartridge using .357 Max brass.

[briannmilewis]

I have a slight modification based on mcwoodduck's 256 Win Mag idea.

There was the 256 Win that was a necked 357 case to 25 caliber.
It may be easier to neck the 256 to 224 and on down to 204 or 177 than starting off with a 38 or 357 case.
You may look for 256 necked to as a search.
Good luck.

What about using a forming die or FL 256 die adjusted to go from 38-256, then another, possibly just a 223 FL die adjusted so it just does the top half of the case, shoulder and neck.

What do you think?

[briannmilewis]

I'd like to make a rimmed .223 cartridge using .357 Max brass.

It is called the 224 R-C Max: http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w224rc.html

Cheers...

[mcwoodduck]

1. I have a 22 Hornet.

Then why douplicate it with this 38 spl case thing?
is there some frame or action you want to use like a 92 winchester action, destroyer carbine or Ruger M77/44 to turn into a 22 Hornet clone?
What speeds are you looking for and with what bullet weight?  Are you just going to make a really expensive 22mag?
I hate being the one to ask these but really want to know what advantages you will have with a 224/38Spl.

3. I have feedback from Reed's Ammunition that necking down the 38 to 22 requires only one intermediate step (a new die) to 38-28 or 38-25, then the last step 28-22 or 25-22 can be done in one step with existing dies. So it is a lot simpler than most everyone would think.

It may not be the easiest and cheapest way to get there.

[briannmilewis]

1. I have a 22 Hornet.

Then why douplicate it with this 38 spl case thing?
is there some frame or action you want to use like a 92 winchester action, destroyer carbine or Ruger M77/44 to turn into a 22 Hornet clone?
What speeds are you looking for and with what bullet weight?  Are you just going to make a really expensive 22mag?
I hate being the one to ask these but really want to know what advantages you will have with a 224/38Spl.

3. I have feedback from Reed's Ammunition that necking down the 38 to 22 requires only one intermediate step (a new die) to 38-28 or 38-25, then the last step 28-22 or 25-22 can be done in one step with existing dies. So it is a lot simpler than most everyone would think.

It may not be the easiest and cheapest way to get there.

I want to have a better choice in the 218 Bee and 22 Rem Jet niche.

I want a round that has a small case capacity (1.15cc), the quantity being halfway between the 22 Hornet (0.79cc) and the 221 Fireball (1.43cc), can be formed form cheap parent cases, with little or no extra investment in dies if someone is already loading for 223 Rem. 22 Hornet has a nominal range of 150 yards for coyote, and the Fireball has a nominal effective range of 300 yards for coyote.

I want a 225 yard coyote gun that is very cheap to shoot, has a mild report, is easy and cheap to reload. I don't care about velocity, and I know it will have energy to get the job done with a 45gr bullet.

I know my design goals are not what you normally associate with a wildcat. I am working on the bottom end of centerfire, what else can I say.

We will test it first in a Handi and go beyond that once we have it thoroughly tested it.

[briannmilewis]

Further discussion with Reed Ammunition, and reading all the input gathered up here at GBO, the 38Sp neck-down is not going to happen.

Thanks all.

[bill439]

Why not just down-load the .223 to what you want?  it  don't get any cheaper than that- don't tell me you are having trouble with finding brass, hell i don't pick it up anymore!  Someone has some loads using, I believe  Blue Dot, that may meet your needs.  I doubt you'll be able to come up with anything cheaper than what I have suggested.  good luck,  Bill439