Author Topic: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer  (Read 6024 times)

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Offline Cannoneer

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M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« on: October 01, 2009, 07:46:38 PM »
This is an article that relates how the M1835 U.S. mountain howitzer's origins can be traced back to the French mountain howitzer.

Mountain Howitzer

Photos Mt. Howitzer
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 08:00:59 PM »
Great article, Boom J, thanks for posting it! BoomLover
"Beware the Enemy With-in, for these are perilous times! Those who promise to protect and defend our Constitution, but do neither, should be evicted from public office in disgrace!

Offline guardsgunner

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 09:54:33 PM »
BoomLover
       While the article is good the photo shows some bad habits. Chest open, 6-8 feet away from and inline with the wheel while firing.  Kind of lookin for trouble.

Bob

Offline KABAR2

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 01:45:37 AM »
I am wondering if the French were influenced by the Russian Unicorn?
The Mountain Howitzer looks like a streamed lined version of one.
I doubt the French would ever admit being influenced by the Russians....


Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2009, 06:57:19 PM »
It could very well be that the French were infuenced to reduce the diameter of the metal around the sub-chamber on their mt. howitzers by studying the Russian unicorn howitzers, but it would probably be very difficult to prove that assertion.
Cannonmn started a thread about these Russian cannons, but I don't recall anything being said about what the powder chambers looked like. Does anyone have any drawings that show the bore, and chamber of these cannons? When looking at the profile of these howitzers, I wonder if they have a reduced powder chamber that runs parallel to the bore, or if they have gomer chambers that resemble truncated cones.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 02:12:07 AM »
Does anyone know if the French mountain howitzers all had low trunnions, or if they eventually moved them to centerline?  The one I've seen not too long ago was as I recall dated 1839 and had low trunnions.  I saw another one, mounted, in front of the French Foreign Legion barracks in Djibouti, Africa, when I was in the Navy, but can't recall where the trunnions were on it. 

I kind of thought I'd like to have it, but I didn't like the thought of what might happen to me when the Legionnaires caught me.  We had a few drinks with them and they most definitely seemed like folks you didn't want to anger.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 02:35:55 AM »
If anyone cares, the Spanish used a howitzer that's very similar to our M1835, which they probably copied from the French, as they did with much artillery.  The Spanish version I've seen was dated in the 1840's, had centerline trunnions, and had a 4.5-inch bore (a bit smaller than the US version.)

Offline KABAR2

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 05:21:38 AM »
Cannonmn,

Back in 1974 a group I belonged to had on loan for demonstrations a Bronze mountain gun that was supposed to have been captured
from the from the Mexicans during the Mexican war maybe they got it mixed up and it was the Spanish during the Spanish American war.......
it was on loan from a NY State Guard armory on Long Island, sorry but I don't know which one...... and I don't remember the markings.......
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline carronader

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 10:24:13 AM »
Everything but the pic of the internal bore.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 07:40:30 PM »
Thanks for posting this article, Carronader. While this article is researched, written, and the drawings made by two wargamer/modellers, who also happen to be brothers, and there are those that would look down their noses at the information they provide because of this fact, I think that these modellers often do exhaustive research on their subjects.


The Unicorn Howitzer
Sometimes referred to as "Licorne". This weapon originated in 1757. It derived its name
from the decorative dolphins or lifting handles, and cascable that were shaped in the form of
leaping unicorns for the handles and a unicorn’s head for the cascable. These features appear
in both early and later models but seem to have been omitted from the general issue of the
“System 1805”. Such expensive decorations were probably confined to special barrels at this
time.
"Originally the bore was “stepped” with a powder chamber of smaller diameter than the bore
and a distinctly flared muzzle. By Napoleonic times the bore had become parallel with no
flare at the muzzle but tapering to a cone shaped powder chamber.
"
The vent, or touch hole, was originally of the usual vertical type located on the breech
reinforce, however it was later moved to the top face of the breech and angled into the
powder chamber. The outside opening is shaped to provide a priming cup which feature
became common on all Russian artillery.
Fixed, or made up, ammunition appears in a very early illustration of this weapon and
consisted of both shell and canister. These “Unicorns” were fairly accurate at long range and
must have been really deadly at short range.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 09:24:02 PM »
Does anyone know if the French mountain howitzers all had low trunnions, or if they eventually moved them to centerline?  The one I've seen not too long ago was as I recall dated 1839 and had low trunnions.  I saw another one, mounted, in front of the French Foreign Legion barracks in Djibouti, Africa, when I was in the Navy, but can't recall where the trunnions were on it. 

I kind of thought I'd like to have it, but I didn't like the thought of what might happen to me when the Legionnaires caught me.  We had a few drinks with them and they most definitely seemed like folks you didn't want to anger.
If anyone cares, the Spanish used a howitzer that's very similar to our M1835, which they probably copied from the French, as they did with much artillery.  The Spanish version I've seen was dated in the 1840's, had centerline trunnions, and had a 4.5-inch bore (a bit smaller than the US version.)


I don't think the French ever modified their 1828 mt. howitzer to have the trunnions placed on the centerline of the bore. The Spanish model (according to this Aide-Memoire) is derived from the French mt. howitzer.

Aide-Memoire to The Military Sciences



http://www.longcamp.com/rosewitz.html

Sir,
I read with interest the information you have on your site regarding the Fremont howitzer. I think the greatest detractor to the whole issue of the weapon is the belief that CPT Bell issued anything but an American 12 Pounder Mountain howitzer to LT. Fremont. Unfortunately for speculators, the American Mountain howitzer is almost identical to a French Mountain Howitzer in shape, dimensions and packing. I hope you can indulge me while I provide some additional information that may be beneficial for your web site.

The fact of the matter is, the 1828 French howitzer did NOT have dolphins (handles), it DID disassemble and pack on saddles, and we did NOT buy a single piece from the French. Lts. Tyler and Huger saw the howitzer in Metz, France at the Artillery School and Tyler had plans drawn up to use in manufacturing it. The US model did have trunnions in line instead of below the "axis of fire" like the French, but most of the carriage was the same design excepting changes for American manufacturing practices and conversion from metric to inches. In Pruess's drawing he depicts what appears to be a split trail carriage and a barrel with dolphins. The French howitzer actually had a box trail carriage like the US. The primary difference between the two was the conversion to US measurements.

Dimensions- The French model was slightly larger dimensionally(for example the bore of a US mountain howitzer is 4.62 inches where as the French is 4.745 inches). The US Howitzer is a 12 pounder (which I will discuss below) where as the French is a 12 centimeter (note: 12 cc= 4.74 in). This also begs the question, if it was a French piece, where was the ammunition coming from, they could not use US shells because they would have been too small.

The French mountain howitzer ball diameter tolerance was 4.686 to 4.639 while the US was 4.53 to 4.49 with 4.52 being the correct ball size. Other differences included the bore length of the French was 31.90 vice the US of 28.16; the exterior length of bore being French 33.87 and US 32.91 (bore length only, not including cascable); weight of the French 221 pounds and the US 220. (refer US Ordnance Manual 1862 pgs 21,34, 488)

I like your scale drawing of the Pruess howitzer. The US mountain howitzer had 38" wheels and a track of 30.2 inches. The height of the axis of the trunnions above the ground is 27 inches. If your drawing is accurate then the Pruess howitzer would have had wheels not even two and one half feet tall leaving an axle approximately 14 inches off the ground. That would have been very unwieldy. General Jesup complained of the Mountain Howitzers in Florida sticking on stumps and uneven ground and at that time (1837-39) thewheels were 36 inches tall; 27 inch wheels, if correct would definitely be a mess. However, I think again, we can not rely on the drawing.

The other common mistake is the belief that French mountain howitzers did not disassemble. This is not true. They disassembled just as their US counter-parts did. I have a lithograph of the French foreign legion in Algiers c. 1846 packing their mountain howitzers on mules through a mountain stream bed. It looks amazingly like a US howitzer. I also have lithos of the French manual that shows how they packed each saddle. The saddles used differed between the two countries with the US model being more box shaped. It only takes three saddles to carry one howitzer complete. All the saddles are identical having been designed to allow each piece of the weapon to fit into different notches or portions of the pack saddle. the first saddle holds only the howitzer (the tube), the second saddle hold the carriage and wheels, the wheels being removed from the carriage and strapped on, and the third saddle holds two ammunition chests with eight rounds each. (saddle #1 carrying 220 pounds, #2 277 pounds and #3 224 pounds) refer Ord Man page 75. The thill or shafts are designed to be attached directly to one of the pack saddles for draught. The limber you depict was not available until the Mexican War a couple of years later. Testing of that model started at Fort Leavenworth in 1845-46.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline carronader

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 11:16:27 PM »
one reason I try to say ' maybe help ' every time..........so many people out there with specific information,forensic detail, I just want to know enough so that if I decide one day I want to make it,then I can have a pretty good,educated,crack at it.I prefer carriages,the difficult bit. Anybody can mess about with simple tubes  :P :P :P  sheesh!!!!!!!!!!! you would think it was difficult to machine or cast rinky dink cylinders.My point is........even ' experts ' have disagreements on detail,this Forum is good because there is room here for everyone.
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline Double D

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2009, 03:56:39 AM »
Something we haven't discussed much, the many times we had talked about this gun, is the chamber shape.  This smaller than bore chamber is one the charactoristic we look to identify howniters in this type of gun.

The shape appears to be funnel shaped, perhaps to facilitate loading.  It looks like the ball might seat in front of the funnel and not in the back in front of the chamber.   Does anyone know if that is correct?

Does this funnel shape extend to other howitzers?

Offline carronader

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2009, 06:39:47 AM »
pdf maybe usefull
Scottish by birth and by heart.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2009, 12:27:49 AM »
I'm guessing the photo shown in reply no. 10 depicts a French mountain howitzer-maybe Boom could confirm that.  I think the way you can tell from that particular top view is by the cypher which may be that of Louis Philippe?  I wanted to clarify since the post mentions both French and Spanish.

Quote
The Spanish model (according to this Aide-Memoire) is derived from the French mt. howitzer.

I've seen a few examples of the Spanish mountain howitzer dated in the 1840's which appears to have been derived derived from the French design, but the Spanish pieces definitely had centerline trunnions. 

C/L trunnions seem to have been preferred by the Spanish on about all of their bronze weapons manufactured in the two royal cannon foundries in Spain, beginning at least as far back as the 1780's. 

Spanish weapons cast in their colonial foundries (Philippines in particular) did not necessarily follow the centerline trunnion idea.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2009, 06:42:00 AM »
The photo is of a French Mt. Howitzer on display at Les Invalides, Paris.

This drawing of the Spanish 12-pdr Mt. Howitzer shows the trunnions placed on the centerline of the bore; also notice the taper of the barrel, and the different muzzle design, as opposed to the U.S. version of the French mountain howitzer which (other than the trunnion placement being altered) basically duplicates the French original.

Spanish Howitzer 

Douglas; notice how the projectile rests in the front of the chamber. I thought I had a photo of an example of fixed ammunition for the U.S. M1835 Mt. Howitzer, but I can't find it now.

 
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline Double D

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2009, 07:15:43 AM »
Yes, I think the fixed charge is shaped like the taper and chamber.

Offline dan610324

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2009, 11:40:18 AM »
isnt the tapper part for a sabbot ??
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline KABAR2

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2009, 12:01:31 PM »
isnt the tapper part for a sabbot ??

Yes I believe it is.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2009, 02:00:44 PM »
Here's a PDF that shows examples of shell, case shot, and canister fixed ammunition for the Mt. Howitzer.
Plus the enlargement to about 300% so you can get a decent look.

Mt. Howitzer Fixed Ammunition
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2011, 12:41:55 PM »
Two questions on this:

1.  Does anyone know the meaning of the script letter "C" between the trunnions of the French howitzer pictured in post no. 10? 

2.  Were there any French mountain howitzers among the various pieces of French ordnance purchased by the Confederacy during the American Civil War?

Offline Zulu

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2011, 12:48:08 PM »
Two questions on this:

1.  Does anyone know the meaning of the script letter "C" between the trunnions of the French howitzer pictured in post no. 10? 

2.  Were there any French mountain howitzers among the various pieces of French ordnance purchased by the Confederacy during the American Civil War?

cannonmn,
I don't have the answer but I want to say hello.  You have been missed.
Zulu
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2011, 12:52:01 PM »
Another question about the article at the first link in post no. 1, which says:  "During Napoleon's Spanish campaign (1810-1812), Spain deployed mule-borne batteries in the Pyrenees equipped with 12 cm (4.72 inches) bronze howitzers cast in Seville. These small howitzers proved to be far superior to the Spanish 2-and 4-pdr. guns, and the French 3-pdr.guns, which were also deployed during the conflict."

I have studied mountain howitzers to some extent, and have never seen another reference to a "12 cm (4.72 inches) bronze howitzers cast in Seville" or a howitzer with that bore that was cast anywhere in Spain in use during the timeframe stated.  The author of that article did not give his source for the information.   Can anyone provide a reference to support his statement?

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2011, 02:32:00 PM »
Mr. Morris,
I saw your moniker on the first page, and I had to do a double take to confirm that it was really you. Welcome back!
I probably won't have any answers, but I'll look at your questions later; my lawn mower awaits. Ditto, what Zulu said!
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline dan610324

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2011, 09:40:05 AM »
welcome back john ;D
Dan Pettersson
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interested in early bronze guns

better safe than sorry

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2011, 01:11:19 AM »
Thanks Dan and others.   

Dan as I recall you like pix of fancy bronze guns.  There are some among recent postings on the Company of Military Historians forum.  One by Craig Swain concerns VMI; for another see "Invalides."

Offline dominick

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2011, 02:23:44 AM »
Welcome Back John!  I'm still enjoying your videos!

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2011, 02:43:04 AM »
My guess turned out to be prophetic; I'm walking back to the dugout head hanging low with bat in hand. I couldn't turn up anything on the scroll C between the trunnions, nor any information on 12cm Spanish howitzers used against Napoleon's troops in 1810-1812.
Did you try contacting Stephen Siemsen (the translator of Heinrich Dietz for the Artilleryman article)?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2011, 03:34:51 AM »
>Did you try contacting Stephen Siemsen (the translator of Heinrich Dietz for the Artilleryman article)?

Tx no, I'm about 90% sure the answer would come back without a source, but may still do that one day.  HD and SS have both been here a couple of times, but long ago, and SS lives nearby.

Tx for checking for the "C" mark.  I've sent a request in to the Invalides in French, asking that question so maybe something will come back. 

Once before they actually sent me a nice letter with some info when I asked them about a certain French cannon founder.  They sent lists of founders they knew of but that one wasn't on it, and I have two cannons with the founder's or foundry's name (Lecourant) on them.  I have photos of others in small French museums.  One small museum has a large bronze bell made by Lecourant of Rennes.

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2011, 01:16:40 PM »
A French post revolutionary 24-inch cannon model with a script C emblem on the first reinforce. The C encompassed by a wreath is of course a symbol replacing what would have previously been the monarch's cypher. On the base ring: AN IX DE LA REPUBLIQUE. I think that AN on some of these 'republican' guns stood for Assemblée Nationale, but in this case it simply appears to be an abreviation of the Latin anno; so, YEAR 9 OF THE REPUBLIC, with the 9 signifying the ninth year since the founding of the First French Republic (Republique Française) in 1792. That would correspond with the year 1801 AD, and France at this time was ruled by a Consulate composed of three men, with Napoleon being the First and most powerful Consul. This is conjecture on my part, but I believe that is what the script C on this gun stands for....................To be continued.

RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.