M1835 U.S. Mountain Howitzer

[dan610324]

got any more pictures of that one ??

[cannonmn]

 A couple of posts above mistook the French script "T" for "C."  On both the model and the M1828 the single letter is a "T."  On the model I think it may stand for Tallyrand who was the first PM of France for a very short time in 1815.  The T occurs on the breech where the monarch or head of state's cypher usually appears.

On the M1828 I have no idea what the "T" between the trunnions stands for.

I learned the figure was a "T" by posting my questions on a French language discussion board, and I was quickly corrected.  They posted a chart of their old script letters and there was no mistaking it as a "T."

[Cannoneer]

got any more pictures of that one ??

Sorry, that's all I've got of this model.

[Cannoneer]

Cannonmn,
If the letter on this model is also a T then it's unlikely that it stands for Talleyrand, because at that time he would only have been the French Foreign Minister (appointed by Napoleon).
I haven't signed up on the 'Forum de collectionneurs'; would you mind posing a few questions there?
There are some subtle differences between the letters on the howitzer and the model; is it possible that the script letter on the model is a C?
If the letter is definitely a T do they have any opinions of what it signifies?
Could the letter on the barrel stand for a place, like the "Palais des Tuileries"?

 French M1828 mt. howitzer “Le Rapp” 1844                       Photo by John Morris



24-inch French model

[cannonmn]

See if this helps.  The French folks posted this to show me the T was really a T.

[Cat Whisperer]

See if this helps.  The French folks posted this to show me the T was really a T.

Does the font of type have a name? and what dates does it hail from?

[Cannoneer]

Those are good questions Tim, but I don't have the answers, which is why I’m now waiting on responses to a few emails that I sent to peolple knowledgeable about this form of writing.
Don’t misunderstand my earlier post, I’m in no way arguing that the judgement coming from the French forum is wrong, to the contrary, I'm convinced that the letters placed between the trunnions on both French howitzers ("Le Rapp" and "Le Belier" or The Ram) are T’s, and that they do represent the surname initial of Guillaume Tournaire who was in charge of the Douai Foundry in 1844 when they were both manufactured. In all probability it is also a T that's on the 24-inch French cannon model, in fact to my untrained eyes that letter more resembles a T than the others; but is there any possibility that it is a C?
When cannonmn first stated that some members of a French forum thought that what we believed to be a C was in actuality a T, I started searching the net for examples of script letters, and it didn’t take long to find examples of script T’s that were even better matches than the French forum provided. I also found some examples of uppercase C’s that were very similar in appearance, and observed other letters that seemed to be distinguished from each other only by the subtlest nuances of line, so I’m just trying to avoid wasting time looking for a word or name that’s incorrect, because the identification of the letter seen on the model is in error.

T 's 



I realize this is a more modern font based on older script lettering, but the C is still very similar to the letter found on the model.


Compare the uppercase I and J.

[Cat Whisperer]

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of fonts of type.  By finding a French source of named fonts, one could find one with similar letter formations that dated back a ways.  The older the font, the more likely that folks back when would be familiar wtih that style.

WHen setting type, one holds a 'stick' and starts the (newspaper, book) column at the bottom of the stick and one builds character by character the block of text - reading it upside down and backwards.

When cast into a cannon barrel there would be no need to have it upside down, but it would be backwards.

FWIW.

[cannonmn]

You probably already know this but if not, the model was cast by Lecourant of Rennes, France. 

Very little is known about the Lecourant foundry.  When I asked the Invalides staff about it, they wrote back that there had never been a French cannon foundry by that name, nor had there been a cannon foundry in Rennes.  Several surviving cannon and a large bell or two bearing the Lecourant name prove them wrong, but far be it from me to attempt to convince them of those facts.

Since the thread's topic deals with mountain howitzers, did anyone see the photo of the three different examples that was on the CMH forum?

[Cannoneer]

No, I knew nothing about the foundry; how did you come by the information?
Do you have any other photos of this model?
Can you make anything out of the engraved lettering on the cascabel? This is iffy, but the second group of letters looks like it might be an individual's name.



I did view your photos on the CMH forum, and it was a real treat to be able to see (and compare) the French, Spanish, and U.S. mountain howitzer models side by side (I've never seen any other set of photographs that offered the same opportunity).

[cannonmn]

Notes I made say the basering inscription was:

"LECOURANT Fdr A RENNES AN IX DE LA REPUBLIQUE"

I got that from photos and it wasn't perfeclty clear but I think that's pretty close.  Remember I mentioned Lecourant was a founder in Rennes, not as well known as the big government arsenals such as Douai.

The date 1800 was stamped or engraved underneath the barrel. 

An acquaintence in Europe sent me the info.  Somewhere I think I have more photos.

[Cannoneer]

I thought that the letters visible on the base ring in the photo I posted was all that was there, thanks for the information. You mentioned that this foundry cast a bell and a few other cannon that you're aware of; were those full scale cannon, or presentation pieces like this one?

There are also engraved letters beneath the base ring on the cascabel (outside breech face), but I can't make out what they spell.

[cannonmn]

Sorry for confusion, I shoulda looked at the pic again before my last post. 

Basering:  "AN IX DE LA REPUBLIQUE"

Cascabel:  "LECOURANT Fdr A RENNES"

On two larger cannons I'm intimately familiar with, all the marks are on the breechface (some consider it cascabel.)  They are just about the same syntax as on the model.  The bell is quite large, I think about 30", but have not looked at the museum's site lately.  Bell is quite elaorate with other designs on side of bell.  One cannon is an M1786 Pierrier (heavy swivel gun) and the other is a field 8 pounder.  I will look up the video showing me loading the 8-pdr in my van, for your entertainment.  It has replaced dolphins of the incorrect type, but that didn't stop me from making a deal on it.  I plan to shoot it one of these days.  It weighs as I recall some 1150 French pounds (x 1.1 for English pounds.)  I think the name on that 8-pdr. is "La Surveillante."  And no, it is not named after a ship it was on as the average person assumes, it was christened at the foundry, and I'm still trying to find out how those names were decided, who made that decision, was there any ceremony at christening, etc.

[Cannoneer]

Thanks John, now I'm clear on the lettering found on the model. If you happen to come across those other photos, I'd love to see them.


I do remember that video, but I needed to be reminded that "Lecourant" was engraved on the lower breech face. It's interesting to learn that these two cannon, along with the French perrier that Val Forgett Jr. owned in 1993, were all cast during the first nine years following the inauguration of the "Republique Française."
You mentioned that the dolphins on "La Surveillante" had been replaced; can you tell this because the repairs are evident?
I've been curious about this ever since originally seeing the vid; how did you end up having to face the task of moving that gun by yourself.     

[cannonmn]

>You mentioned that the dolphins on "La Surveillante" had been replaced; can you tell this because the repairs are evident?

The dolphins on it now are naturalistic.  It is a Gribeauval piece which should have simple 3/4 rectangle dolphins, with either round, hex, or octagonal cross-section.  The workmanship was very good and many people would not suspect anything was out of place, because they don't know what a Gribeauval piece is supposed to look like. 

That issue didn't bother me since I had never before run into a French 8-pounder for sale, much less one made by a founder whose work is so scarce even the Invalides was unaware they existed.  Well, this one wasn't really for sale, I had to find something they really wanted to pry it away from them, which turned out to be a fairly large Strong Firearms Co. salute gun in mint condition.  I keep a few sizeable breechloading salute guns around in case I get a similar opportunity in the future.

>I've been curious about this ever since originally seeing the vid; how did you end up having to face the task of moving that gun by yourself.

With the portable engine hoist, lifting straps and a couple of pieces of rope, loading it into a van is child's play.  I think it took under 1/2 hour and I wasn't hurrying.  Another person would have been nice to keep an eye on the rig while the van was backing up but that's not worth taking an extra person along on a long trip.