475 vs 480 - practical difference?

[EdK]

Looking into these two and curious about the practical difference between them. Here's where I'm coming from...

I'm a 454 Casull shooter and probably mainly because of the launch platform: a Freedom Arms model 83. Would I be just as happy if my model 83 originally came with a 45 Colt cylinder? Probably, but it didn't. I've long heard the argument that unless you really want to shoot 240-260gr bullets loaded to 65Kpsi and touching 2000fps, there's not much a heavy loaded Ruger and nothing a custom 5-shot won't do in 45 Colt with cast bullets. I won't argue with that thinking and readily admit I primarily use my 454 for just that: 300-340gr cast @ 1050-1350 fps.

Ok, on to the 475 vs 480. Why wouldn't the same logic apply? Can the 475 take on a few more thousand psi at the top end? Yep, a few(50-55Kpsi). However the question is: provided the one is not limited by cylinder length on the 480, why wouldn't it be every bit as useful as the 475 shooting cast bullets when the bore size is the same and the 480 guns are rated to 48Kpsi?

The reason I pose this question is that I recognize the benefits of the increased bore diameter and bullet weight but don't want to limit my choice of 475 cal guns to exclude those that are chambered in only 480. I'm not trying to debate the superiority of one over the other but rather ascertain whether there really is a practical difference between the two with respect to on-game performance when firing a cast bullet.

Thanks for your input, Ed

[yooper77]

There isn't a whole lot of difference with cast bullets in the 475 Linebaugh and 480 Ruger, but there is a difference.   Either one isn’t something I really want or need, since my 45 caliber pistol cartridges handles it all.

I am also a 454 Casull & 45 Colt shooter.  Which is way I wouldn’t buy a 460 S&W Magnum, since my 454 Casull will already handle it at about the same way when loaded to max.

I shoot my 454 Casull in my 12" T/C Encore barrel and 45 Colt in my Ruger New Model Blackhawk.  Plus 45 Colt cowboys loads in my Ruger Old Army with a conversion cylinder.

yooper77

[Ken ONeill]

Probably about 100 fps or so, depending upon bullet weight, in suitably strong guns.

[Graybeard]

Realistically there is no practical difference for a few reasons. Most cylinders aren't long enough to allow bullets to be seated out further in the longer case than they can be in the shorter case. If you seat the bullet out as far as it can go based on cylinder length the useable case capacity of them is basically the same. If you seat bullets to a fixed cannelure or crimp grove on the same bullet in both cases you'll likely see around 100-150 fps difference if that and in rounds like those that difference is quite meaningless.

[mk454]

there's not much practical difference in any of the above rounds except in trajectory imho.  i've had them all at one time or another and if i really thought a .475 offered anything on the others i'd still have one.  if ruger'd pull their head out of their #$% i'd have an alaskan in 480 already and would love a super redhawk 5 shot.  the casull will shoot 400 gr bullets at 1400fps and the real trajectory diff b/w it and the 45 colt is when you push the lighter bullets much faster.  by faster i mean 400 or more fps faster than the colt.  100-150 is meaningless which is why i'd just love the 5 shot 480 ruger.  great question.

[EdK]

All good posts. GB's post got me to thinking it would be good to visualize what we're talking about here - you know, the "picture being worth 1000 words" thing. Now I didn't draw this with any fancy CAD program - just something I happened to have on my computer (to the nearest 0.01"). Note the different case lengths. I think it makes the point...




With a constant cylinder length (FA) bullet weight and powder capacity are the same. Each 400gr LFN has a different nose length which is easily accomplished with a LBT mold. Sure, jacketed bullets are another matter.

[fowler]

I have a FA 475 with a additional 480 cylinder. I have ended up shooting the 480 cylinder far more than the 475, I think the case is a little better balanced, more effecient, and allows for a greater variety of cast bullets to be shot in it. In a FA the 475 is limited by cylinder length, if you cast you own there are not a lot of molds available as it is, the ones that are offered are generally going to have a nose to crimp length suitable for FA cylinders but not all. Now if you do like I did I called LBT and had a custom mold made with a nose length I dictated so this problem is really pretty moot.

Now for most mortals you will shoot loads in in the 475 that could be run just as easy in the 480. You can choose to run loads to 100fps faster in the 475 brass but to me it is a moot point. I don't shoot those loads.

If I was to order a new FA knowing what I know now, I would not spend the money for the 480 cylinder (I bought mine used), any load you can run in the 480 can be run in the 475 so it is just not worth the extra money. However if I found a gun I really liked and it was only available in the 480 it would be absolutely no draw back to me.

[fowler]

Oh and I don't think you could ever find a animal that could tell the difference between the two...

[mcwoodduck]

The way I see the two,
One is 38 Special +P+
And the other is 357 mag.
The 475 will shoot both,
The 480 will only shoot the 480.
Ruger built the 480 as that is as Big as they can get into the Redhawk frame and with out making a new frame they made a 475 Special.
Both are neat as a round and if I ever take up fishing, or fishing in Brown bear country I would want one or a larger bore gun, than my 44 mag
460, 480, 475, or 500.  Other than that, I think my 44 will do what I want a hand cannon to do with the ability to get cheap practice ammo and use it in target shoots and get trigger time with it.  Same as you would use 45 colt in your 454.

[Lloyd Smale]

alot depends on the platform. A fa gun does have a limiting factor of cylinder lenght, but in a linebaugh made gun the cylinder is longer and will allow you to shoot longer heavier bullets at at least 200 fps faster then the 480. Is this more powerful. Yes! if it werent why would people chose a 3006 over a 308 or a 300 mag over an o6. i have both a linebaugh made 475 and a fA and at least in the linebaugh made gun what i see as the major advantage is i can push 420s to the same speed as a 480 will push 400s and do it at lower pressures that are easier on the gun. My favorite load in that gun is a 420 at about 1300 fps and a 480 is not going to give you that level without pressure problems. dont get me wrong i love the 480 and think its one of the most ballanced handgun rounds made and wish theyd chamber it in more guns but its not a 475 and cant be. I do agree that in a fa with its shorter cylinder that the gap narrows and for all practical purposes a 480 in that gun can do about the same thing as a 475 but capitalize the word ABOUT. When you drop down to bullets in the 380 grain range that dont take up as much powder space the 475 will show a marked advantage in that platform too. I also agree more on the 5 shot ruger vs 454 argument. Now there the 454 is capable of more speed but the 5 shot 45 is allready capeable of pushing cast bullets as fast as what is optimum. In testing ive done cast bullets do there best when shot below about 1400 fps anymore and your fooling yourself thinking you have more gun. Sure they may hit harder but not to many cast bullets will not deform at those speeds and if a cast bullet deforms penetration will suffer drastically. Not a problem on a whitetail but if your shoot something that is big and big boned pentration is where its at. Like i said if you think that 150 fps means absolutely nothing take your favorite rifle and take 150fps off of it and youd find you could use a differnt round. a 300 mag becomes a 3006 which becomes a 308 which becomes a 300 savage which becomes a 3030. Where are you  going to stop. the 480 is a great round but its not a 475 and wont be unless you load it to pressures its not designed to be loaded to.

  then you get the guys that say neither of them are needed as the 44 mag and 45 colt will kill anything. they probably will but so will a 22 hornet. theres no doubt from my experience on larger animals that the 475 puts a bigger hurt on something then a 44 mag does. It also kills whitetail and does no more meat damage then a 44 does so the overkill argument doesnt fly either. the world would be pretty boring if the only handgun round was the 44 mag and the only rifle round was the 06. Sure between them theyd kill about anything but what fun would that be!

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd that was a gret post. Like you, I like bigger holes in my game. I love my 475 Linebaugh, it is a custom from Gary Reeder.

And you are 100% correct, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OVERKILL. DEAD IS DEAD!

[Gun 4 Fun]

Excellent post Lloyd, and spot on! I could have bought a custom 480, or a SRH (if I could stand the way it looks), but I spent my money on a F/A 83, and have no regrets. I do wish the cylinder was slightly longer, but I get all of the performance that I expected from it as is.

If Ruger would have made a 5 hole Super Blackhawk, in 480. I might have considered that, but I haven't had very good luck with any Ruger in the last few years.

[EdK]

Ok, I'll say "Uncle" & promise not to buy a 480.

[mk454]

the idea that there is some mythical velocity above which no benefit is gained is only due to limitations of the bullet to stay together.  i get better results without question with more velocity with certain bullet types.  trajectory is just one benefit.  penetration with expandables is another.  so if you consider that, there is a practical difference.  as far as is there some animal a .475 will kill the .480 will not, well probably not.  then again, same goes for anything vs. the .44 mag.

i know for a fact that my 45/ 70 hits hard with buffalo bore 430 gr lbt's in large part b/c it does distort the nose to where they expand to .75 inches.  recovered off of a buff it was clear there was some expansion and the bullets held together nicely and retained about 380grains of it's weight.  this would relegate the round to "also -ran" status in newsprint testing but in the real world it did help with some very very impressive wound channels so i really put limited stock in the whole newsprint tests anyways and that's where this mythical ideal velocity comes from.



so................in a word........depends on what type of bullet you're using.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres what ill throw back at you. Your bullet did fine in that circumstance but it did not give full penetration probably because it deformed. If you would have backed off a couple hundred fps it would have no doubt penetrated deaper. In your circumstance it killed fine but what about the chance that you had a wounded animal or something dangerous comming for you. Under those circumstances you might have had to drive a bullet to a vital spot from an odd angle or even from the rear of a departing wounded animal. When im hunting something big i expect a bullet to be able to penetrate and break both shoulders and exit. Like that it will put down most animals about right now and if not it has two holes to blead and it makes for easier tracking. It may not give as dramatic of a wound channel but it makes up for it in that it gives a longer wound channel. As to trajectory i dont worry about that. Most handguns dont shoot flat anyway and if a guy shoots enough to know the trajectory of his load and knows how to hold sight for it it doesnt matter if your 2 inches low at a 100 yards or 10 inches low. In my opinion if your shooting game with an open sighted 475 or 500 you have no bussiness shooting past a 100 yards at unwounded game anyway. As to smaller game ive shot enough deer bear and pigs with 44s and 45s using a 250 grain cast bullet at a 1000 fps to know that if it doesnt kill cleanly its because i didnt do my part not because it wasnt going 1500 fps. Now if your talking a scoped 4570 and probable shots out past a 100 yards a little more velocity doesnt hurt and probably helps but ive shot enough buffalo to know that shots over 50 yards arent really nessisary. What to me is gained in going hunting with a 475 or 500 over a 44 or 45 cal gun is you are starting with a meplat that is as big as what a 44 or 45 is if it expands and you still have a bullet that isnt deformed so it will penetrate better. Yup for the most part any  animal ive killed with the big guns would have probably been dead with a 44 or 45 cal gun but ive noticed in my hunting that a 475 or 500 tends to put more of a hurt on game then the smaller guns. Most go down faster and require less tracking and when using cast meat damage is still minimal. Faster ligher expandable bullets tend to put a little more hurt on smaller big game like deer but it takes A LOT OF GUN to put a hurt on a buffalo. Ive watched them hit solidly buy even big guns and continue eating like it was a fly that bit them not even knowing they dead standing. Would i hunt a 1000lb plus animal with a 44 or 45? you bet and ive done it numerous times but when push comes to shove and conditions arent ideal bigger is better.

the idea that there is some mythical velocity above which no benefit is gained is only due to limitations of the bullet to stay together.  i get better results without question with more velocity with certain bullet types.  trajectory is just one benefit.  penetration with expandables is another.  so if you consider that, there is a practical difference.  as far as is there some animal a .475 will kill the .480 will not, well probably not.  then again, same goes for anything vs. the .44 mag.

i know for a fact that my 45/ 70 hits hard with buffalo bore 430 gr lbt's in large part b/c it does distort the nose to where they expand to .75 inches.  recovered off of a buff it was clear there was some expansion and the bullets held together nicely and retained about 380grains of it's weight.  this would relegate the round to "also -ran" status in newsprint testing but in the real world it did help with some very very impressive wound channels so i really put limited stock in the whole newsprint tests anyways and that's where this mythical ideal velocity comes from.



so................in a word........depends on what type of bullet you're using.

[mk454]

actually the bullet recovered was a classic texas heart shot and the bullet was recovered in the neck vertebrae.  look, the meplat on the widest .475 bullet nose i've been able to find is 2/100's bigger than that of my .452 rounds largest meplat.  several of the .475 cast lfn are smaller than the bigger .452 rounds.  like i said, if i thought it'd matter i'd have a 500WE.  then again, you're gonna have to do alot better than that to convince me trajectory doesn't matter.  i've had well more than enough instances of game coming through a "window" in the brush and no time to use a range finder or anything.  to me, trajectory is worth a whole lot more than whatever 2/100's of an inch. means. 

[Lloyd Smale]

when you consider that most 5 or 6 guns are hard pressed to shoot a 6 inch group at a 100 yards what does an inch or two of flatter trajectory buy you when your trying to shoot through brush. If i am in brush that heavy and an animal is a 100 yards or better out i feel i can easily close the range and get a closer shot anyway and personaly i dont feel one shooter in a 1000 has the skill to shoot an open sighted six gun past a 100 yards at something living anyway. if your talking scoped handguns and a solid rest a very skilled handgunner maybe one in a 100 can stretch that to 150 yards but i detest scopes on sixguns and if im going to carry something that wont ride on my hip id as soon carry a lever action rifle. As to metplats. I cast probably a dozen differnt 45 and 475 bullets and for the most part a 475 lfn has as big of a metplat as a 45 wfn. What you gain is a 475 with the same size metplat in a lfn will have a better sectional density and more weight which will insure that it penetrates deaper and in my experience lfns are much easier to get accuate loads for then wfns and when your stretching the range out to the limit you will gain more in being able to thread a bullet through brush by having a load that shoots into 3 inches at a hundred hard compared to 6 inches then you will ever see in the diffrence in even a load going a 1000 fps and a load going 1300 fps. Some may have different experinces then me but ive yet to find a six gun that will shoot a wfn into less then 3 inches at a 100 yards. Like i said most of the advantages to going over 452 or even 429 are not going to show unless your are hunt really big game but a bigger gun has absolutely no disadvantage on any size game. the only real world disadvantage to a bigger gun is recoil but if you can even master a 44 or 45 with big loads and i mean master and to do that you need to shoot thousands of rounds not a couple boxes of ammo, you can master a 475 will very little more work and the same goes for a 480vs475 if you can shoot one it sure isnt a big deal to shoot the other. Ive shot enough big game with sixguns to know that pushing the range or even trying to shoot through brush is a stunt. If you want to hunt like that put the sixgun away and use a bolt rifle. Part of the thing a handgunner has to learn is sometimes you need to pass on a shot even on a trophy animal just like a bow hunter does. If your not willing to do that you need a different gun. One thing i will never do is take a chance on wounding an animal.

[Lloyd Smale]

double post

[Redhawk1]

Once again Lloyd that was a great post.
I think guys forget the real reason we handgun hunt. Myself, I hunt with a handgun like I hunt with a bow. I keep my shots under 75 yards with my handguns. But I also practice with them out to 75 yards.  But in reality, most of the woods I hunt 35 to 40 yards is a normal shot.

If I plain on hunting on a field, where a long shot can present itself, a rifle or muzzleloader is what I choose.  The mind set of a handgun (Revolver) hunter should be getting closer to your game. The majority of hunters I have been around that choose a handgun to hunt with, they need a lot more shooting experience. I have been to the range with a bunch of new handgun hunters, and I would say, 25 yards is some of there max shots due to there shooing ability.

Lloyd, I am also from the school of bigger holes, I have slowed down almost all my handgun hunting loads to 1300 fps and lower. The penetration I get is out of this world.

[mk454]

well, if i wanted to handgun hunt the same ranges i bowhunt from i'd just bowhunt.  i fully respect anyone keeping their shots to a range they can hit from.  i worked hard to get my rifle shooting to where it is and took on handgun hunting for two reasons.  1) shooting 400+ yards is just not that challenging with a rifle anymore.  and 2) easier when i'm helping the kids pack their rifles.  lloyd, i guess me and my friends aren't the norm.  we all practice extensively out to 200 yards.  i'd shoot with open sights out to 150.  once again, if i thought there was any terminal diff. when i've shot buff with a handgun i'd have gotten a wyoming express instead of another 454.  that said, shoot what you like and i've never had any probs with penetration with any of my handguns.  in fact, it's been such overkill i've gone back to expandables and am working on those loads now.  with barnes bullets in particular.

[Redhawk1]

Maybe you just misunderstood me. I bow hunt to 40 yards only, my handgun hunting is out to 75 yards, but I use the same tactics I use for handgun hunting as I do for bow hunting.

It is not that I cannot shoot past 75 yards well, but it is where I set my personal range.  I have shot my S&W 460 mag out to 200 yards on many occasion with my furthest kill at 168 yards, but it was more like a rifle shot off of a bi-pod, not like actual handgun hunting.

I don't put down anyone for shooting long range with a handgun. I guess I just see it as a different mind set. I have kill a bunch of game from long distance and truly find no challenge in it anymore. I rather get up close and personal. That is what I like.

[mcwoodduck]

From Redhawk 1
Maybe you just misunderstood me. I bow hunt to 40 yards only, my handgun hunting is out to 75 years, but I use the same tactics I use for handgun hunting as I do for bow hunting.
My Questions are:
Wow how fast are you driving those bullets?
Is that standard earth years or Light Years? 
Do you have a scope that sees into the future?  Oh look in 75 years from now a really big White tail will be standing there.   
BANG.........75 years later... Thawp, Flop.
Are you still hunting this planet?  Or are there horned beasts in the Andromeda Galaxy?   

[Camel 23]

From Redhawk 1
Maybe you just misunderstood me. I bow hunt to 40 yards only, my handgun hunting is out to 75 years, but I use the same tactics I use for handgun hunting as I do for bow hunting.
My Questions are:
Wow how fast are you driving those bullets?
Is that standard earth years or Light Years? 
Do you have a scope that sees into the future?  Oh look in 75 years from now a really big White tail will be standing there.   
BANG.........75 years later... Thawp, Flop.
Are you still hunting this planet?  Or are there horned beasts in the Andromeda Galaxy?   

Thats funny!  I get real bored shooting at 400+ yards too so I tried hunting instead.  Hunting is a lot more fun.

[drdougrx]

Reddd....I think theys funnin ya......

[Camel 23]

I didn't mean any disrespect to Redhawk, as far as I can tell his hunting ethics closely match mine and I respect his opinions very much.  He clearly meant yards and mcwoodduck made a funny.  But anybody that gets bored shooting game at 400+ yards (mk454) views hunting a little different than me.

[Redhawk1]

From Redhawk 1
Maybe you just misunderstood me. I bow hunt to 40 yards only, my handgun hunting is out to 75 years, but I use the same tactics I use for handgun hunting as I do for bow hunting.
My Questions are:
Wow how fast are you driving those bullets?
Is that standard earth years or Light Years? 
Do you have a scope that sees into the future?  Oh look in 75 years from now a really big White tail will be standing there.   
BANG.........75 years later... Thawp, Flop.
Are you still hunting this planet?  Or are there horned beasts in the Andromeda Galaxy?   

Well you got me there, Yes I am human and make mistakes. I guess it must be my light year gun...lol   

[Redhawk1]

Reddd....I think theys funnin ya......

It's all good to me... 

[Lloyd Smale]

I shoot handguns AT LEAST as much as anyone here. Ill stand behind my range limits and say ANYONE that uses a handgun with open sights past a 100 yards and does it enough is eventually going to make a  bad shot and wound and loose an animal and thats not exceptable to me. Ive shot enough game in my life that even a trophy buck at that distance is passed on. theres allways tommarow. Personaly for me to shoot past 50 yards would demand some perfect circumstances. but your right that its your choise not mine that matters.

[mk454]

i agree lloyd, and that's why i like a flatter trajectory, out here in W. Texas and NM where i will hunt nearly as much it's really easy to think that an animal is 90 yards away but b/c of the way a draw sits it may be 120.  that can easily be a miss or a wound if the trajectory is like a rainbow. 

redhawk--no offense ever meant to you.  your range is your range.  i use trad bowhunting gear and my limit is 25 yards.  i'd easily use a scoped 460 out to 200 yards with a rest. 

Camel 23 -- if you've worked hard on your shooting skills and your highpowered rifle loads and wring out the max accuracy you can from them (i.e. sub moa out to 500 yards) and are on an elk hunt the tag cost over 5K for i'm guessing off the internet you take the shot.  very easy to pontificate on the web.  i have taken the shot and made it.  I have yet to lose a wounded animal yet, either.  had an old friend in the last 3 years of his life on his first and only elk hunt.  he's a disabled hunter as well, hit his one and only elk at 440 yards.  clean one shot kill.  perhaps we do see it different. i've got no problem with that and i'd unabashedly say i can shoot my high powered rifles better at 400 yards than 99% of hunters do at 100.

[Camel 23]

MK, I'm not questioning your shooting abilities at all.  And I would say that my eight year old daughter has put in more time at the range this summer than 99% of hunters going in the field this fall, so I'm sure you are correct in your claims.  I've never spent 5K on a tag of any kind so I honestly can't put myself in that position to make a call on a 500 yard shot.  But, whether spending $14 on a deer tag or $5k on an elk tag, being in perfect health or disabled, first hunt, last hunt, or one in the middle, isn't it more fun to get closer than that?  I'm not trying to put you down for it at all, I'm really not.