Author Topic: "Primitive" season proposal  (Read 3423 times)

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Offline rebAL

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"Primitive" season proposal
« on: October 02, 2009, 08:54:44 AM »
Just read NY is considering an early southern zone "Primitive" M/L  season the 5 days prior to openng day general firearms season next year.  I would guess this would be limited to side-locks and perhaps patched round balls???

Offline MGMorden

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2009, 09:22:59 AM »
Just read NY is considering an early southern zone "Primitive" M/L  season the 5 days prior to openng day general firearms season next year.  I would guess this would be limited to side-locks and perhaps patched round balls???

Always best to check your regs. Most states that I've bothered to look at have considered muzzleloaders in general "primitive weapons".  Heck here in SC you can have a primer fired inline with a scope counted as primitive. That said, primitive weapons don't get any extra hunting time here - just periodic access to some areas that are off limited to modern firearms at the time. 

Heck I heard that two states actually are counting .35 Whelan centerfires as primitive weapons now.  Not sure how someone got that one snuck by :).

FWIW, during a quick search of New York's hunting regulations, the only think I could find was their official definition of a muzzle-loader, which was:
Quote
Muzzleloading Firearm-is a firearm loaded through the muzzle, shooting a single projectile and having a minimum bore of .44 inch

Offline rebAL

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2009, 01:18:01 PM »
Since NYS all ready has an early 'muzzleloader season in northern zone, & late "Muzzleloader" season in southern zone, where any type of muzzleloader may be used, I suspect this special early "Primitive" season in southern zone will be more restrictive with regard to primer, scopes,  inline, & maybe projectiles.  This new proposal comes from extensive meetings with archers and youth groups trying to expand their respective special seasons.  They are also proposing earlier start for archers of 10/1, and week-end prior to general southern season for youth only.  I am glad I kept my old Renegade after upgrading to 2 inlines.

Offline ronp

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2009, 11:25:54 PM »
This didn't originate from NY Dept of En Con.  It is based on suggestions from NYS Bowhunters and the NYS Muzzleloader Association.  I also read that they are considering a primitive weapon as having a sidelock (flint lock or percussion cap) and using a round ball.  Here is the article:

IMMEDIATE RELEASE

State Bowhunter and Muzzleloader Associations Compile Joint Southern Zone Deer Season Proposal

Canandaigua, NY - 9/18/09 - New York Bowhunters, Inc. (NYB) and the New York State Muzzleloader Association (NYSMLA) have been working jointly for several months on a southern zone deer season proposal that allows both parties to meet their objectives. Copies of the proposal have been sent to the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, Bureau of Wildlife (DEC) and other Sportsmen’s organization throughout New York State.

The DEC desires to increase the harvest of antlerless deer in their effort to effectively manage the whitetail deer herd as well as allow for a weekend of early hunting opportunity for junior big game firearms hunters. The NYSMLA wishes to have an early “primitive” muzzleloading season and NYB seeks to restore lost hunting opportunity that occurred with the implementation of the 2005 big game restructuring regulations. Therefore, both organizations reached out to one another to work on a sensible proposal that would be acceptable to firearms hunters, muzzleloader hunters, bowhunters, the DEC and to the general public. The timing of the proposal coincides with the DEC’s scheduling of public meetings this September and October regarding the state of the deer herds in New York.

The DEC recently scheduled public meetings in an effort to “capture the issues that are important to sportsmen, particularly as they relate to bag limits, season structure and tag options. We (DEC) hope to receive feedback from meeting participants that helps us (DEC) prioritize the issues that are important for NYS deer hunters and the public” stated DEC Wildlife Biologist Jeremy Hurst. Information on these meetings can be found by going to the DEC website at http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/57795.html.

The NYB/NYSMLA joint proposal would restructure the southern zone hunting seasons as follows;

· open the 23-day regular firearms season on the Saturday before Thanksgiving.

· open the early archery season on October 1st, ending on the Friday prior to the beginning of the regular firearms season.

· Allow for a weekend of junior (ages 14 & 15) big game hunting opportunity on the weekend prior to the opening of the regular firearms season.

· open a 5-day antlerless-only “primitive” muzzleloading season on the Monday prior to the beginning of the regular firearms season, ending on the Friday prior to the beginning of the regular firearms season.

NYB President, Gary Socola stated, “The DEC follows a progression of weaponry in the northern zone, starting with archery season, muzzleloader season and then progressing into the regular firearms season. The NYB/MYSMLA proposal follows the precedence already set by the DEC.” Socola indicated that he has records over the past two years showing that bowhunters have sent over 8,000 letters and signatures on petitions to DEC Commissioner Pete Grannis asking that the DEC open the early southern zone archery season on October 1st. “I’ve heard people complain that bowhunters are greedy and that they kill all of the bucks prior to the firearms season”. Not true says Socola, “Statistically bowhunters take a very small percentage of bucks when compared to the regular firearms season take. In my 31 years of bowhunting experience, I have never met a more sharing and caring group of hunters.” If we want to “harvest more antlerless deer and expose new hunters to the outdoors, why are we taking early season bowhunting time away from archers and at the same time increasing their license and permit fees, asked Socola?”

New York States 2009 southern zone early archery season is the latest opening date in the Northeast states Socola, “let’s get our youth, seniors, persons of disability and all hunters out earlier in the season so that they can enjoy our natural resources in better weather while helping the DEC control our expanding deer herd.” The states of Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Ohio, and Virginia all have early archery season opening dates in September. Maine opens up on October 1st in most areas, Pennsylvania and Vermont open on October 3rd and Massachusetts on October 12th. Having an archery season opening date on a Saturday is not as critical for bowhunters as it is for firearms hunters. An October 1 opening date is an easily recognizable date and also coincides with the DEC’s licensing year.

Socola added, ”Let’s not forget that the economic impact of hunters being afield for additional hunting days would add a huge influx of funds into the states sagging economy. More time afield has a direct correlation to monies spent.” According to a US Fish and Wildlife Service 2006 National Survey of Hunting, Fishing and Wildlife, New York’s 1.2 million hunters and anglers spent $5 million a day for a total of $1.8 billion. Annual spending by New York’s sportsmen is equal to the combined cash receipts for dairy products and apples, two of the top agricultural commodities in the state ($1.8 billion).

NYSMLA President, Bill Brookover (Black Powder Bill) is excited about the possibilities this proposal offers. “The NYSMLA has tried for over 10 years to get a primitive muzzleloader season in the southern zone. This proposal will allow us to do that and also allows provisions for the youth and for bowhunters. Bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters are not at odds with one another in New York State. This is not a hunter issue but a season issue created by the DEC’s current season structuring. By working together, our organizations are showing sportsmen throughout New York State that we can put aside any differences and work together towards our common goals.”

Pennsylvania (PA) has had an early muzzleloader season since 2000. The PA early muzzleloader season regulation states “Those wishing to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading and muzzleloading seasons are limited to single-barrel long guns manufactured prior to 1800 or a similar reproduction.” PA also offers a special firearms season for junior and senior hunter. “Brookover states “Our joint proposal will allow the youth and seniors a chance to hunt in better weather. With the NYSMLA/ NYB proposal, kids can strike out after school for a late afternoon bow hunt because of the later sunset time. The antler-less primitive week will give families a chance to work together as a team instead of dropping Papa, Sally Mae & Jr. off at tree stands 200 yards apart. You’ll not see a dozen hunters driving deer through a block of woods either.”

The straightforward proposal will allow increased hours a field during warmer weather with a sunset later in the day and provide a regular firearms season pre-Thanksgiving weekend opener. What better week to start the regular season? Many hunters are off the following Thursday & Friday and can take off the whole week using only three additional vacation days. Brookover added, “Our proposal will provide more and often more agreeable - deer hunting opportunities for families, kids, seniors, persons with physical disabilities and just about every hunter across the board.”

New York Bowhunters, Inc. was formed in 1991 to promote bowhunting, educate hunters and non-hunters, and to fight anti-hunting legislation. NYB annually runs youth archery camps, a physically challenged program and supports special projects such as the “Gift Boxes for Troops” and helped establish an archery range for troops serving in Iraq.

The New York State Muzzle-loaders Association was born from the Tryon County Militia in 1977 and is "dedicated to the continuing support of black powder events, people, and legislation." The NYSMLA has over 40 affiliated clubs throughout New York State. The NYSMLA has 6 major events in 2009. The first event was the "Primitive Snowshoe Biathlon” held in March and the last will be the 18th annual "Primitive Rendezvous & Hunt." The Rendezvous will be held just outside Inlet, NY at the Moose River Plains wilderness area October 9th - 16th with Visitors day Sunday October 11th 10:00am till 5:00 pm.


Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2009, 01:31:31 AM »
My season starts here in two weeks. The muzzleloading season in the northern zone is considered a primitive season because a muzzleloader is used. And it sounds a whole lot more appealing to call it so. It started in the northern zone as patched round balls only about 25 years ago.  Now it is any projectile and propellant. The driving factor is money. How many people will buy an extra hunting privelege if they can only use patched round balls?  How many will buy the extra privelege if they can use any type of muzzleloader?  And money makes the laws go round.  If it was proposed and passed, it will include all types of muzzleloaders I am sure of it.  If you think about it, archery season is also considered primitive.  It used to be a lot less technical equipment.  Hang in there. I hope you guys get this.  Oh and by the way in my area 6a, we get an early and a late week.  Early here starts in two weeks and then the late week is after the end of regular season in december. 
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Offline Leatherstocking

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 03:45:39 PM »
If there needs to be an early antlerless ML season in the southern zone why not make it the first week of October? Start archery Oct 1 also and bowhunters could share the woods for a week than have the rest of the time the same as it is now. I think this would make more sense than having the ML season the week before regular gun season. Just my 2 cents...
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Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 04:16:41 PM »
when has make sense and govt ever been friends?  lol
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline Will_C

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2009, 06:41:21 AM »
These are proposals being advocated by special interest groups-archers and blackpowder enthusiasts. They just want an "edge" over regular gun season hunters. The problem is, these special seasons tend to divide sportsmen, much to the delight of the antis.
Will

Offline MACHINIST

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2009, 06:49:21 AM »
These are proposals being advocated by special interest groups-archers and blackpowder enthusiasts. They just want an "edge" over regular gun season hunters. The problem is, these special seasons tend to divide sportsmen, much to the delight of the antis.
Will


Exactly the more we are against each other the worst off we will be as hunters.For one I could care less if the allowed crossbows to.I would be the first in line to buy one.Not that I need another toy.

Offline Mud

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2009, 07:52:50 AM »
These special seasons offer increased recreational opportunities for those who want them.  They don't give anybody an edge, everybody follows the same rules, they just let you hunt a little more and there's nothing wrong with that. 

If you want to check out an issue that divides sportsmen, look up deer hunting with dogs in SC.

Offline FLNT4EVR

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 03:18:11 PM »
Primitive  firearms season is meant for flintlock or caplock weapons , sidelock,with the ignition systems exposed to the elements. Useing patched round ball,or conical lead bullet.No inlines, scopes, or saboted bullets,no ignition systems useing 209 primers,and it will be for anterless deer only.The regular muzzleloading season will still follow the regular firearms season as it always has.
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Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2009, 01:44:13 AM »
well flint that is how it started here in the northern zone too. The problem will become very little interest and not enouh money generated, so it will become open to all muzzleloaders and projectiles real soon.  It took 3 years here. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline FLNT4EVR

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2009, 05:11:33 AM »
I have to admit, I think you are right about that.If NY,even thinks there is a dollar to be had they will do what ever they have to to get it. I just hope I can get a couple of seasons in before they start makeing changes.
" Act civilized...even if you ain't " 
 
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Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 12:45:52 AM »
nothing will stop you from taking the traditional primitive weapon out. I still hunt some with me t/c hawken sidelock while my buddies all lug scoped pistol bullet shooters. I also have to admit I own a couple scoed pistol bullet throwers too now. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

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Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 02:53:40 AM »
I had a discussion with a couple of "primitives" when remington came out with their 700 ML.  They participate in rendevous' and give many demonstrations.  They had no use for modern ML's.  I mentioned that I am only interested in extending the(New York) deer season for a week and the ML is only a tool to do that for me.  When I mentioned how I didn't like disassembling the rifle to clean it (I had a T/C Greyhawk at the time), they told me that they couldn't disassemble theirs since the barrel was epoxied into the stock to increase accuracy.  They were speachless when I asked them if they used genuine "mountain man" epoxy!

A fellow was at the range last week shooting a replica French flintlock .60 cal. smoothbore.  He was planning to use that this ML season.  Now that is primitive!  If you want a real primitive season, limit it to smoothbore flintlocks.

Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2009, 03:01:50 PM »
or just throw rocks. I mean you can go back and back if need be. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

Molon Labe

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Offline 1marty

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 03:54:44 PM »
I've been hearing this for years in the southern zone. Don't hold your breath. It seems the bow hunters have too much sway over the DEC.

Offline Mike103

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2009, 04:58:08 PM »
I've been hearing this for years in the southern zone. Don't hold your breath. It seems the bow hunters have too much sway over the DEC.

This and the gunhunters would be deprived of a early start every few years.

This year we start late. Last year we started early. This year we will miss the rut.

Offline rebAL

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 02:04:18 AM »
These are proposals being advocated by special interest groups-archers and blackpowder enthusiasts. They just want an "edge" over regular gun season hunters. The problem is, these special seasons tend to divide sportsmen, much to the delight of the antis.
Will
  Thats one way to look at it;  IMHO it's the wrong way to look at it.  I see it as an opportunity for the lone gun hunter who enjpys the challenge of 1 on 1 still hunting to have the chance of harvesting a deer before the hordes of drivers gang up on the deer and chase them out of their pre-season scouted areas.  As long as driving deer is legal, lone hunters need an advantage.

Offline Mike103

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 03:42:38 PM »
These are proposals being advocated by special interest groups-archers and blackpowder enthusiasts. They just want an "edge" over regular gun season hunters. The problem is, these special seasons tend to divide sportsmen, much to the delight of the antis.
Will
  Thats one way to look at it;  IMHO it's the wrong way to look at it.  I see it as an opportunity for the lone gun hunter who enjpys the challenge of 1 on 1 still hunting to have the chance of harvesting a deer before the hordes of drivers gang up on the deer and chase them out of their pre-season scouted areas.  As long as driving deer is legal, lone hunters need an advantage.

What does "lone hunters" have to do with the price of coffee.

The proposal is for the type of wepons not how they are used.

You can conduct a deer drive with a flintlock.

This is nothing more than the holier than thou crowd trying to extend the season with their wepon of choice.

And of course NYS trying to get more money.

IMHO.

MIKE.

Offline oldhunter

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 04:56:51 AM »
If one were to examine the well organized, richly funded, and with impressive lobbying efforts, the NYS Bowhunters Association has, along with their excellent lawyers and impressive writing skills (better called bull****), it is no wonder they are usually successful in obtaining whatever they want for ONLY the bowhunters.  Do not believe for a minute that they are willing to share their deer season with any other segment of hunters.  They have staved off crossbow hunting for several years while most of the nation has showed how successful they work together when regular archery and crossbow hunters share their seasons.

It is amazing how this organization can manipulate the DEC into doing whatever they feel is best for the small number of bowhunters that truly know what is going on instead of the actual number of bowhunters who are more than willing to share archery season with crossbows.  The DEC blindly concedes to this group that has shown that "he who hollers the loudest" will eventually get their own way.

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Offline Bigeasy

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 05:41:55 AM »
Here in PA, we have a "Flintlock" season, and that is just what it means - flintlock only.  Heck, there was years of debate before the rules were changed to allow a conical bullet to be used, in addition to the normal patched round ball.  This season is run in Jan., after the close of all regular firearms deer hunting.  Most serious flint hunters I know hunt the earlier seasons with their flintlocks, and save this late season to fill left over doe tags.  With the antler restriction law in PA, its hard to find a shootable buck after all the other seasons have closed...

Larry
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Offline youthpastorjon

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2009, 01:33:27 PM »
the only problem is if they open another type of season, is they will charge more money.  i don't know about the rest of you but I shelled out $98 this year for my Super Sportsman.  What will it be next year?  I am not going miss a week of hunting in mid november.  If you want to hunt primitive do it.  I will be carrying my muzzleloader on opening day this year.  I am not sure we need to regulate it.  The guys who hunt primitive will still hunt primitive.  Regulations won't change that.  they will just tick people off who miss a week of hunting in the middle of the season. 

Offline rebAL

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 05:49:57 PM »
I just read unofficially that if this comes to pass, the primitive muzzleloader hunters will be limited to antlerless only while bowhunters will still be allowed either. 

Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2009, 12:44:47 AM »
youth pastor. If you shelled out 98 for your supersprotsman did you get muzzleloading priveleges.  If so, you shelled out the estra money or the special season anyway. 
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline youthpastorjon

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2009, 09:41:01 AM »
Yes, I did pay for late season muzzleloading.  However, you know if they add another "season" they will charge you more.  Every time NY changes something, they fee you to death.  That's just the way it is in our state. 

Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2009, 01:32:31 PM »
actually in the northern zone we have two muzzleloading seasons one before season and one after. All included in the same fee.  You could come borth the week in october and hunt witht he same muzzleloading privelege you pay for now.
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline youthpastorjon

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2009, 07:27:30 AM »
This is New York.  I am telling you, I don't have a whole lot of faith that if it is changed they won't make us foot the bill.  Just my opinion but our states government and how they manage funds and even run our wildlife department does not have me overly impressed. I hope you are right bubba.  I honestly do. 

Offline bubba

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2009, 12:01:37 PM »
I am living it with two seasons they make their money by more ppl buying the muzzleloading priveleges.  which id why it will no tbe limited to just primitive weapons no money in that
”A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.”

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Offline lonewolf5348

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Re: "Primitive" season proposal
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2009, 11:16:45 AM »
I here there will be a season in the southern zone but it will be traditional only
no scopes no in lines
I have my flinters ready to go
I am gearing up for the late season M/L coming up on Dec: 14 2009
I hope for some snow to get the deer feeding during day light hours