357 Mag Handi rifles no good for deer!!!

[maglvr44]

Can you believe there are MANY people that actually believe that cr@p!!
And with the anemic(factory wussed out garbage) ammo offerings commonly available for it these days, that might hold quite true beyond 50 yards!
However, when loaded like it was INTENDED to be, it is still very powerful, and quite a destructive round on flesh! Add to that what we now know about flat nose(wide meplat), hardcast bullets and their large wound channels and it is very easy to see the potential of a "TRUE 357 MAGNUM" cartridge!!!
Those who do not handload have hope also with heavyweight, true magnum offerings by a few specialty ammo companies. naturally you'll pay a bit more for their loadings but it's a small drop in the bucket for the performance you'll recieve!
For those who do reload Lil-Gun powder has been a revelation, especially when driving heavy-for-caliber loads!
With these heavy loads leaving a Handi at 1700-1800fps. the 357 cartridge has a LOT to offer, and FAR beyond 50 yards, 150-200 yards is NOT out of line in the least, even for the largest whitetail/mulie or black bear on the planet!
IF you can place the bullet where it needs to go, it'll get the job done in fine fashion, just as it did in 1935!!!

1935 
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide.  No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park.  The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The  above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1550 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs  of muzzle energy.

[Dee]

Put that same round in my 24" barrelled Winchester Model 92 clone, and it now reaches almost 2000 fps. It will do anything a 3030 will do out to about 130 yards. JMO

[billy_56081]

The little 357 really kicks up its heals out of a rifle. Close to 30-30 ballistics with a wider bullet.

[maglvr44]

The little 357 really kicks up its heals out of a rifle. Close to 30-30 ballistics with a wider bullet.

Probably much like a 35-30 (30-30 & 32spl necked up to .358, for salvaging shot-out barrels many years ago).
Hard not to love a 35 caliber!!

[maglvr44]

The first 357 mag ammo also used a LARGE primer, I have to find some of those old cases somewhere to see what a difference can be made lighting off the Lil-Gun. Should be interesting.

[Dee]

Why not just use a magnum primer?

[dpe.ahoy]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

[dpe.ahoy]

I do use mag primers with LilGun.  DP

[maglvr44]

I too use mag primers, but I suspect the large magnum primers had a whole lot more fire and more likely than not a larger flash hole also.

[maglvr44]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

I have never loaded a 158 grain. When I started reloading I had already used Buffalo Bore 180's and had been spoiled..... MORE power than a standard factory 240gr. 44 mag. in a 357(go compare ballistics before you argue this point.....Winchester 240gr 44mag = 741ft.lbs. at the muzzle, Buffalo Bore 180gr. 357mag = 783ft.lbs. at the muzzle) was/is just awesome! I started with 200grainers and stayed within that general range.
However, I just ordered some 160gr WFN to experiment with, I think I will like them just fine!
For my 200gr. hardcast, I put them over 13gr. of Lil-Gun(this is NOT a load for small or medium frame revolvers and was worked up to for my guns only! it may not be safe for your gun!) and let me tell you, even in a N frame S&W you realize when you have pulled the trigger!! In a Handi it's just unreal! It's not a 454, but it will make you look at the little Three-Five-Seven in a whole new light! 

[canon6]

I am also using LilGun, but with a 173FNGC  at north of 1800fps.It is a killer.    Doug

[maglvr44]

I am also using LilGun, but with a 173FNGC  at north of 1800fps.It is a killer.    Doug

That's some serious power from such a tiny cartridge for sure! I just love the 357!

[coues2506]

I agree, .357 is no good on deer. I have shot two with one at 15 and 30 yards. Deer ran fast and were never recovered. It's just not enough gun on average. Yes, sometimes it works. But what are you guys smokin' ? No way does a .357 compare to a 30-30. You're dreamin', look at the numbers - you're in never-never land if you think a .357 hits like a 30-30 - wake up and smell the coffee! Be a responsible hunter. Use an adequate round! I have no losses with my 45-70 and a 405gr bullet. Sweet dreams fellas.

[canon6]

coues2506,you are entitled to your opinion. The experiences, of more than just me, contradict it.  Doug

[Jimbo47]

I agree everyone should be a responsible hunter, but the .357 Magnum is more than adequate for deer, and there is just too much data, and too many articles written on the .357 Magnum to post here, that back up those facts comparing the 30-30 especially when fired out of a long rifle barrel.

Everyone has an opinion, and my opinion is that a poor shot can be made with a larger caliber such as a 45-70 as well, but the larger the caliber tends to be a little more forgiving for a poor shot, but that doesn't make the .357 any less adequate in the hands of an ethical hunter, who practices and knows his limitations, and how to place a shot correctly in an animal.

[Lucky Joe]

It's original purpose. Self defense and darn good at that too.

[PawPaw]

I agree with most everyone else that the .357 magnum is plenty good deer medicine when shot from a rifle.  That little cartridge is an entirely different one when shot from a rifle as compared to a pistol cartridge.

Let's not forget the pioneering work that Lee Jurras did in showing us how to hunt with magnums.

As with all other cartridges you have to know your rifle and load it appropriately.  I haven't shot a jacketed bullet through that caliber in years, preferring hard-cast bullets in the 158 or 180 grain range.  I've heard that L'il Gun is the cat's whiskers for the heavier bullets, but haven't had a chance to experiment with it.  At this stage of my handloading I normally use 2400 or Blue Dot in the little case and get good power and accuracy from those loads.

[Dee]

I too use mag primers, but I suspect the large magnum primers had a whole lot more fire and more likely than not a larger flash hole also.

This is an opinion, and I have no stats to back it up but! I suspect with all the new propellents, and manufacturing techniques, if a larger primer would have given better ignition, the ammo manufacturers would have used it.
A magnum small pistol primer probably gives at least as much fire as a standard larger pistol primer. As I said. JMO

[phatgemi]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

I have never loaded a 158 grain. When I started reloading I had already used Buffalo Bore 180's and had been spoiled..... MORE power than a standard factory 240gr. 44 mag. in a 357(go compare ballistics before you argue this point.....Winchester 240gr 44mag = 741ft.lbs. at the muzzle, Buffalo Bore 180gr. 357mag = 783ft.lbs. at the muzzle) was/is just awesome! I started with 200grainers and stayed within that general range.
However, I just ordered some 160gr WFN to experiment with, I think I will like them just fine!
For my 200gr. hardcast, I put them over 13gr. of Lil-Gun(this is NOT a load for small or medium frame revolvers and was worked up to for my guns only! it may not be safe for your gun!) and let me tell you, even in a N frame S&W you realize when you have pulled the trigger!! In a Handi it's just unreal! It's not a 454, but it will make you look at the little Three-Five-Seven in a whole new light! 

Not sure where you are getting your ballistic  information but........Handguns Mag ballistics table shows the .44 mag (240 grain) with 1650 ft pounds out of the muzzle. Heck the chart shows a .44 having more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does out the muzzle. I'm sure you can find a hot 357 load equal to or better than a light .44. Hey the .357 is adequate for deer. Why be just adequate.......

[Jimbo47]

We are talking about deer which aren't that hard to kill, and people have been using small calibers and including rimfires for taking deer for years although illegal, but that is my point, we are not talking about elk here.

I've taken deer at 110 yards and closer and dropped them on the spot, so I don't see how I could improve on that, and I've got a 45-70 and a .270 handi I will also use when the situation calls for a bigger gun or longer range.

9 times out of 10 though I grab the .357 Mag.

[maglvr44]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

I have never loaded a 158 grain. When I started reloading I had already used Buffalo Bore 180's and had been spoiled..... MORE power than a standard factory 240gr. 44 mag. in a 357(go compare ballistics before you argue this point.....Winchester 240gr 44mag = 741ft.lbs. at the muzzle, Buffalo Bore 180gr. 357mag = 783ft.lbs. at the muzzle) was/is just awesome! I started with 200grainers and stayed within that general range.
However, I just ordered some 160gr WFN to experiment with, I think I will like them just fine!
For my 200gr. hardcast, I put them over 13gr. of Lil-Gun(this is NOT a load for small or medium frame revolvers and was worked up to for my guns only! it may not be safe for your gun!) and let me tell you, even in a N frame S&W you realize when you have pulled the trigger!! In a Handi it's just unreal! It's not a 454, but it will make you look at the little Three-Five-Seven in a whole new light! 

Not sure where you are getting your ballistic  information but........Handguns Mag ballistics table shows the .44 mag (240 grain) with 1650 ft pounds out of the muzzle. Heck the chart shows a .44 having more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does out the muzzle. I'm sure you can find a hot 357 load equal to or better than a light .44. Hey the .357 is adequate for deer. Why be just adequate.......

The ballistic information came directly from BuffaloBore & Winchester web sites (from the PISTOL category) not the rifle category, as I wanted a fair comparison seeing BuffaloBore's info is for handguns.

[phatgemi]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

I have never loaded a 158 grain. When I started reloading I had already used Buffalo Bore 180's and had been spoiled..... MORE power than a standard factory 240gr. 44 mag. in a 357(go compare ballistics before you argue this point.....Winchester 240gr 44mag = 741ft.lbs. at the muzzle, Buffalo Bore 180gr. 357mag = 783ft.lbs. at the muzzle) was/is just awesome! I started with 200grainers and stayed within that general range.
However, I just ordered some 160gr WFN to experiment with, I think I will like them just fine!
For my 200gr. hardcast, I put them over 13gr. of Lil-Gun(this is NOT a load for small or medium frame revolvers and was worked up to for my guns only! it may not be safe for your gun!) and let me tell you, even in a N frame S&W you realize when you have pulled the trigger!! In a Handi it's just unreal! It's not a 454, but it will make you look at the little Three-Five-Seven in a whole new light! 

Not sure where you are getting your ballistic  information but........Handguns Mag ballistics table shows the .44 mag (240 grain) with 1650 ft pounds out of the muzzle. Heck the chart shows a .44 having more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does out the muzzle. I'm sure you can find a hot 357 load equal to or better than a light .44. Hey the .357 is adequate for deer. Why be just adequate.......

The ballistic information came directly from BuffaloBore & Winchester web sites (from the PISTOL category) not the rifle category, as I wanted a fair comparison seeing BuffaloBore's info is for handguns.

Well here is some info from the speer site. BOTH sets of info are from a pistol. Both are Gold Dot hunting rounds.

Cal                    grain                Muzzle      50          100
                        Bullet               energy       yards      yards    (in foot pounds)

.357                   170                   526         446         392
.44                     240                  1044        837         689

Once again, the .44 has more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does at the muzzle. Yes the 357 can/does/has taken lots of deer but in no way can you compare the performance to the 44.

[maglvr44]

Sounds like a good test, make sure the bullets are crimped good to avoid the primer from "kicking" them out of the case.  I agree with you on LilGun being a great powder for the 357.  I quit using H-110 in the 357 and that used to be the only thing I would load in it.  LilGun really makes the 158's and up sing.  DP

I have never loaded a 158 grain. When I started reloading I had already used Buffalo Bore 180's and had been spoiled..... MORE power than a standard factory 240gr. 44 mag. in a 357(go compare ballistics before you argue this point.....Winchester 240gr 44mag = 741ft.lbs. at the muzzle, Buffalo Bore 180gr. 357mag = 783ft.lbs. at the muzzle) was/is just awesome! I started with 200grainers and stayed within that general range.
However, I just ordered some 160gr WFN to experiment with, I think I will like them just fine!
For my 200gr. hardcast, I put them over 13gr. of Lil-Gun(this is NOT a load for small or medium frame revolvers and was worked up to for my guns only! it may not be safe for your gun!) and let me tell you, even in a N frame S&W you realize when you have pulled the trigger!! In a Handi it's just unreal! It's not a 454, but it will make you look at the little Three-Five-Seven in a whole new light! 

Not sure where you are getting your ballistic  information but........Handguns Mag ballistics table shows the .44 mag (240 grain) with 1650 ft pounds out of the muzzle. Heck the chart shows a .44 having more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does out the muzzle. I'm sure you can find a hot 357 load equal to or better than a light .44. Hey the .357 is adequate for deer. Why be just adequate.......

The ballistic information came directly from BuffaloBore & Winchester web sites (from the PISTOL category) not the rifle category, as I wanted a fair comparison seeing BuffaloBore's info is for handguns.

Well here is some info from the speer site. BOTH sets of info are from a pistol. Both are Gold Dot hunting rounds.

Cal                    grain                Muzzle      50          100
                        Bullet               energy       yards      yards    (in foot pounds)

.357                   170                   526         446         392
.44                     240                  1044        837         689

Once again, the .44 has more energy at 100 yards than the 357 does at the muzzle. Yes the 357 can/does/has taken lots of deer but in no way can you compare the performance to the 44.

I guess you just don't get it 

[phatgemi]

Sure, I do. I realize you love the 357 and that's great. I hope you enjoy it.
There's no problem with that. It's a great round. Just don't make it something it's not. 

[billy_56081]

What we are talking about here is a 357 mag out of a rifle. It is a totally different animal out of a rifle. It has much more energy than the old reliable deer killers of the west. The 44-40 and 38-40 were considered whack em and stack em deer and bear killers in there time. I don't think the deer are any tougher now. I have killed many deer in my youth with a 22 lr. Heck I know for certain the 22 lr is a 100% deer killer in my usage.

[BrianB]

I agree, .357 is no good on deer. I have shot two with one at 15 and 30 yards. Deer ran fast and were never recovered. It's just not enough gun on average. Yes, sometimes it works. But what are you guys smokin' ? No way does a .357 compare to a 30-30. You're dreamin', look at the numbers - you're in never-never land if you think a .357 hits like a 30-30 - wake up and smell the coffee! Be a responsible hunter. Use an adequate round! I have no losses with my 45-70 and a 405gr bullet. Sweet dreams fellas.

From the damage I have seen on a deer double-lunged with a .357 handgun at about 25yards with a 158gr. XTP at roughly 1500fps, I find it difficult to believe that any deer could go far at all, much less be unrecoverable.  From a rifle, the ballistics are not too far off with hunting handloads, as I recall, and more of the .357's total energy is delivered on impact due to the larger bullet. I  seriously question where those two deer were hit, that just contradicts everything I have personally seen and what I have heard from others.

Why not just use a magnum primer?

I'm not sure I've ever seen a .357 load that didn't.  I guess you could work up a load using small rifle primers.

[45-70.gov]

What we are talking about here is a 357 mag out of a rifle. It is a totally different animal out of a rifle. It has much more energy than the old reliable deer killers of the west. The 44-40 and 38-40 were considered whack em and stack em deer and bear killers in there time. I don't think the deer are any tougher now. I have killed many deer in my youth with a 22 lr. Heck I know for certain the 22 lr is a 100% deer killer in my usage.

44 mag is  different animal out of a rifle
44  mag  exceeds  30-30 in a rifle
357  is  almost a 30-30

i carry  the one  that matches  the handgun  i am carrying
there  is no  bad  choise  to be made

[quickdtoo]

44  mag  exceeds  30-30 in a rifle

What are you smokin?  It doesn't exceed the 30-30 in anything except is has a large bore and shoots bigger bullets which going by energy and trajectory don't compare! 

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302*R44MG2*RH44MGA

[cowboyup453]

Everyone has an opinion, and my opinion is that a poor shot can be made with a larger caliber such as a 45-70 as well, but the larger the caliber tends to be a little more forgiving for a poor shot, but that doesn't make the .357 any less adequate in the hands of an ethical hunter, who practices and knows his limitations, and how to place a shot correctly in an animal.

Well said couldn't agree more.

I think the 357 is ok, but a 357 max is much better. 

[maglvr44]

Sure, I do. I realize you love the 357 and that's great. I hope you enjoy it.
There's no problem with that. It's a great round. Just don't make it something it's not. 

I wasn't the one that performed the ballistics testing, that was done by the two companies that I compared, I am not "making it something it's not", that would be pointless! However, it is what it is and that is all I claimed it to be.