Author Topic: 357 Mag Handi rifles no good for deer!!! (Read 11318 times)

Graybeard · « **Reply #60 on:** October 09, 2009, 02:28:50 AM »

In the early days the .357 mag pushed 158s to 1550 fps. I remember buying Browning brand ammo loaded by Norma which stated that on the box. Man that was some fine ammo and I've never seen better.

From a rifle it can still push bullets of comparable weight to the .30-30 to the same velocities as factory .30-30 ammo does AT THE MUZZLE. You can however hot load the .30-30 same as the .357 and add another 200-300 fps same as hot loading the .357 mag does for it.

What some are forgetting however is that same weight .358" bullet compared to a .308 bullet has dismal ballistics past 50 yards and because of it's low BC loses that velocity a lot faster. Both are fine deer killers and yeah old man Wesson sure was a fine handgunner and did some amazing things with it back then.

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #61 on:** October 09, 2009, 03:46:35 AM »

You are 100% correct, and I think what most everyone is missing is that the caliber has it's limitations, but it is a good deer rifle within it's limits, which is the key!

spikehorn · « **Reply #62 on:** October 09, 2009, 06:50:00 AM »

Quote from: Jimbo47 on October 09, 2009, 03:46:35 AM

You are 100% correct, and I think what most everyone is missing is that the caliber has it's limitations, but it is a good deer rifle within it's limits, which is the key!

Jimbo47 you are right about "within it's limits" I'll be the first to admit that mine was a lucky shot at that distance. I had a good limb to rest the rifle on, and had I actually known the distance I probably wouldn't have taken the shot. My rifle is a good shooter. She prints about an 1.5" at 100 yards when I do my part.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #63 on:** October 09, 2009, 03:22:59 PM »

Quote from: Jimbo47 on October 09, 2009, 03:46:35 AM

You are 100% correct, and I think what most everyone is missing is that the caliber has it's limitations, but it is a good deer rifle within it's limits, which is the key!

With HEAVY/hardcast/flat nose bullets, the only limitation on deer sz. animals is that point where the velocity would drop below 500fps or thereabouts! It depends on placing the bullet where it needs to go.
Look at it this way... if you walked up to within 3 feet of a deer with a 38spl. loaded with 180-200gr. hardcast bullet @ 700 fps. and shot it in the vitals, don't you think that bullet would pass right through? Again, I am only speaking about heavy/hardcast/FLAT nose bullets, they are in no way similar to a soft point or hollow point in the way they work(destroy tissue), I can assure you, that bullet would be a complete pass-through.

spikehorn · « **Reply #64 on:** October 09, 2009, 04:01:29 PM »

Mine was a complete pass threw at the distance I shot it and that was a jsp

Dee · « **Reply #65 on:** October 09, 2009, 04:14:58 PM »

Quote from: spikehorn on October 09, 2009, 04:01:29 PM

Mine was a complete pass threw at the distance I shot it and that was a jsp

I killed an adult male coyote (average size) last year at 160 yards (stepped off), with a should shot. The round broke both shoulders and it was a bang flop with 3 witnesses not believing what they saw for themselves. It had and exit wound that was about the size of a golf ball, and was a 158 grain jacketed soft point at about 2000fps muzzle velocity.
I do agree that the round sheds velocity quicker than the 30 caliber rounds, BUT! They also have a wider meplate, and deliver more energy quicker because of the larger caliber. At 150 yards, I believe the 357 mag in a rifle will do anything a 3030 will do, and I have both, and have shot the 3030 for over 50 years. Inside 100 yards I think it will do anything the 35 rem. will do. I don't care about energy charts, and such, and spent years reading them, and studying them. In the field on actual game things many times are quite different than expected.

trotterlg · « **Reply #66 on:** October 09, 2009, 04:31:29 PM »

A .357 doing anything a 30-30 does in a rifle is simply not true. As mentioned the ballistics suck on the .357, given that, the amount of drop is much more and you will have a lot more difficulty hitting what you are aiming at, estimating distance becomes more critical and the terminal velocity will be much lower so the bullet will not perform as well (expanding) or have as near as much energy as the 30-30, plus any required lead you have to put in will be a lot more with the .357. Any "Expert" telling someone that the .357 is just as good as a 30-30 is doing people a diservice by leading them to believe something that just isn't fact. The .357 isn't a magic bullet, if you have and use one and believe it is the equal of a 30-30 then more power to you. Larry

Dee · « **Reply #67 on:** October 09, 2009, 04:36:26 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 09, 2009, 04:31:29 PM

Any "Expert" telling someone that the .357 is just as good as a 30-30 is doing people a diservice by leading them to believe something that just isn't fact. The .357 isn't a magic bullet, if you have and use one and believe it is the equal of a 30-30 then more power to you. Larry

Well I never said I was an expert, but you seem to think your one. I also don't believe everything I read, but don't believe in magic either. What YOU think, may or may not be right, but if you THINK you are, then more power to you also. Dee

By the way. Do you have a 357 mag rifle? I would wager I have fired more rounds thru both calibers at different ranges than you ever have. But I don't tell folks what they can and can't do, or what they have to do, or don't have to do to accomplish any one thing. I just know what I have done.

trotterlg · « **Reply #68 on:** October 09, 2009, 04:44:47 PM »

No I don't, but I can read and do math, I even shot a gun once, I also have a firm belief in the laws of physics.

Larry

PS. I do have a couple of 30-30's, how about you?

maglvr44 · « **Reply #69 on:** October 09, 2009, 06:38:01 PM »

Quote from: spikehorn on October 09, 2009, 04:01:29 PM

Mine was a complete pass threw at the distance I shot it and that was a jsp

That doesn't surprise me in the least, a VERY underrated round it is.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #70 on:** October 09, 2009, 06:45:37 PM »

Quote from: Dee on October 09, 2009, 04:14:58 PM

Quote from: spikehorn on October 09, 2009, 04:01:29 PM
Mine was a complete pass threw at the distance I shot it and that was a jsp

I killed an adult male coyote (average size) last year at 160 yards (stepped off), with a should shot. The round broke both shoulders and it was a bang flop with 3 witnesses not believing what they saw for themselves. It had and exit wound that was about the size of a golf ball, and was a 158 grain jacketed soft point at about 2000fps muzzle velocity.
I do agree that the round sheds velocity quicker than the 30 caliber rounds, BUT! They also have a wider meplate, and deliver more energy quicker because of the larger caliber. At 150 yards, I believe the 357 mag in a rifle will do anything a 3030 will do, and I have both, and have shot the 3030 for over 50 years. Inside 100 yards I think it will do anything the 35 rem. will do. I don't care about energy charts, and such, and spent years reading them, and studying them. In the field on actual game things many times are quite different than expected.

Those wide meplats really have a lot of smack! Thats some great shooting too! I agree with the comparison between the 357 & 35 Rem, from a rifle, pretty much the same round.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #71 on:** October 09, 2009, 06:54:51 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 09, 2009, 04:31:29 PM

Any "Expert" telling someone that the .357 is just as good as a 30-30 is doing people a diservice by leading them to believe something that just isn't fact.

You mean like an "Expert" trying to tell us the 30-30 is superior to the 357???

I do hope i'm never accused of saying the 357 is the equal of the 30-30, I would like to go on record, right here and now and say... the 357 IS BETTER!!!

trotterlg · « **Reply #72 on:** October 09, 2009, 07:15:29 PM »

maglvr44, you are right, the .357 is much better if you are trying to fit it into a Revolver. Larry

Graybeard · « **Reply #73 on:** October 10, 2009, 12:21:21 AM »

Quote

Those wide meplats really have a lot of smack! Thats some great shooting too! I agree with the comparison between the 357 & 35 Rem, from a rifle, pretty much the same round.

Not really, not by a long shot. Ya just can't get around the case capacity issue. Like hot rodders used to say the more cubes the more power ya can make. You are trying to compare over SAAMI pressure .357 mag loads to SAAMI pressure .35 Rem. loads and even then the .35 Rem outshines it. Push it to the same pressures as folks like Buffalo Bore do the .357 which you can easily and safely do in the handi rifle and the .35 Rem out classes it by far.

Folks I love the .357 also and it is a versatile round but geez you guys are trying to make it out to be a super hero and it just ain't. Next someone will be saying it's the equal of the .35 Whelen.

schoolmaster · « **Reply #74 on:** October 10, 2009, 04:10:09 AM »

There was a time when gunwriters distained the 30-30 when touting their newest gee whiz cartridge. And so it is with the .357 mag and to some extent the 44 mag. Now we have even bigger rounds than either of those and of course they have not gotten the press the newer cartridges have. Now I guess that new cartridges sell guns but when they are trying to convince the reader/shooter of how good the round is they compare it to some of the classic cartridges such as the 30-30, 44 mag, 357 mag, 30-06 etc. The point is 90 % of the deer we shoot here in the east are shot at close range. Deer are not hard to kill, Just about any center fire cartridge with the proper bullet and the proper placement will kill them efficiently. A 410 slug will kill them, so will a 22 rimfire. The one deer I have seen taken with the .357 was shot at 58 yards hit a little high and far back but was recovered within 150 yards. The exit was about golf ball sized and the load was Jerry Lester's 158 gr Remington soft point, 17.5 grains of Lil-gun out of a handi-rifle. Given the shot placement I don't believe a 30-30 or 35 Remington would have done any better. I believe that it is not what the cartridge can do, it is what you can do with the cartridge in your rifle. Many hunters practice more than others and are better shots. You have to know your limitations and hunt within them. Try and tell the old timer at deer camp that his 30-30 winchester he has hunted with for 40 years isn't as good as your .357 mag rifle. Tell Jerry Lester he is doing it all wrong with the 357 and try and discount the 50+ deer he has taken with it. Tell my late grandfather, that his Remington pump 30-06, he carried from Pennsylvania to Wyoming and took a semi load of game with including mulies, whitetails, mountain lion, antelope, bear, sheep, and even turkeys is not as good as the latest 300 magnum. Ballistics are great, they make for great arguements but its the hunter behind the gun not ballistics that takes the game.

spikehorn · « **Reply #75 on:** October 10, 2009, 06:29:41 AM »

Schoolmaster well said!

Dee · « **Reply #76 on:** October 10, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 09, 2009, 04:44:47 PM

No I don't, but I can read and do math, I even shot a gun once, I also have a firm belief in the laws of physics. Larry

PS. I do have a couple of 30-30's, how about you?

No sir I don't have a couple of 3030s. I just have had the same 3030 since 1958. How long have you had yours? You don't have a 357 mag rifle, but fired one once?
I guess since you've read all those books that I read years ago, you know more than I have been able to absorb. We are always in need of someone whom can read around here.
I just wonder if all the rabbits, squirrels, feral hogs, coyotes, bobcats, and deer I shot over the last 50 somethin years, had a firm belief in the laws of physics. Must not have. Because they fell over whether I shot'em with a 3030, a 357 mag rifle, or hell sometimes a 22lr.
This is a forum for opinions, and every one has one, and all think theirs is the right one. I suppose that at times includes myself. But I have seen what works, and what doesn't. At least for me and mine, and a few hotshots over the years.

mannyrock · « **Reply #77 on:** October 10, 2009, 08:58:01 AM »

Well Guys, if you are gonna argue about the adequacy or not of the .357 Mag, how bout declaring in the first sentence whether you are talking about a rifle or a revolver!

Out of a rifle, the standard factory 158 grain soft point loads are cranking about 1,350 foot pounds of energy. (With the expensive Buffalo Bore factory loads, I think you are cranking about 1,550 ft pounds.) So, I don't need any clowns telling me that this is not more than adequate for whitetail hunting, out to 100 yards. (Indeed,at 100 yards, the standard .357 Mag load out of a rifle still hits with the same energy as a standard .357 Mag fired point blank from a handgun with a 6 inch barrel. And yes, if you put the muzzle of a .357 Mag handgun against the chest of a whitetail and pull the trigger, it will kill it dead!)

Now, as to whether the .357 Mag out of a handgun is adequate for deer hunting beyond very short ranges, I have my doubts. Yes, I know that some hunters can do it, but probably not 2 out of 10. So, I vote no.

Regards,
Mannyrock

billy_56081 · « **Reply #78 on:** October 10, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »

Quote from: mannyrock on October 10, 2009, 08:58:01 AM

Well Guys, if you are gonna argue about the adequacy or not of the .357 Mag, how bout declaring in the first sentence whether you are talking about a rifle or a revolver!

   Out of a rifle, the standard factory 158 grain soft point loads are cranking about 1,350 foot pounds of energy. (With the expensive Buffalo Bore factory loads, I think you are cranking about 1,550 ft pounds.) So, I don't need any clowns telling me that this is not more than adequate for whitetail hunting, out to 100 yards.   (Indeed,at 100 yards, the standard .357 Mag load out of a rifle still hits with the same energy as a standard .357 Mag fired point blank from a handgun with a 6 inch barrel. And yes, if you put the muzzle of a .357 Mag handgun against the chest of a whitetail and pull the trigger, it will kill it dead!)

   Now, as to whether the .357 Mag out of a handgun is adequate for deer hunting beyond very short ranges, I have my doubts. Yes, I know that some hunters can do it, but probably not 2 out of 10. So, I vote no.

Regards,
Mannyrock

UMMM! NEF/H&R Centerfire Rifles Sponsored by Talley Rings

It is under that header.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #79 on:** October 10, 2009, 02:40:02 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on October 09, 2009, 07:15:29 PM

maglvr44, you are right, the .357 is much better if you are trying to fit it into a Revolver. Larry

Actually Larry, you are wrong again! the 30-30 round loads MUCH easier in a revolver than does a 357, that tapered neck slides right in like a breeze, even in the dark, where as the 357 takes a bit of "centering" to drop it in a revolver chamber

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #80 on:** October 12, 2009, 03:32:43 PM »

This thread has been one heck of a good read. I can't wait till I manage to find a handi in .357 so I can argue intelligently about it.

I will have to find a thread where they are arguing the merits of a .243 untill I can find .357 or 30-30 handi.

All that being said I don't want Dee shooting at me with either his .357 or his 30-30. I heard or read somewhere "beware the man with only one gun he likely knows how to use it". Fifty years holy smoke Dee you need to retire that weapon. Give some critters a fighting chance.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #81 on:** October 12, 2009, 03:41:34 PM »

Quote from: kinslayer1965 on October 12, 2009, 03:32:43 PM

This thread has been one heck of a good read. I can't wait till I manage to find a handi in .357 so I can argue intelligently about it.

I will have to find a thread where they are arguing the merits of a .243 untill I can find .357 or 30-30 handi.

All that being said I don't want Dee shooting at me with either his .357 or his 30-30. I heard or read somewhere "beware the man with only one gun he likely knows how to use it". Fifty years holy smoke Dee you need to retire that weapon. Give some critters a fighting chance.

Find one? Do like Maglvr (who showed me the way) and I did and stub yourself one. Mine works great and has already accounted for a few feral ditch cougars. I hate to own a firearm that has not been blooded.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #82 on:** October 12, 2009, 10:45:28 PM »

Quote from: kinslayer1965 on October 12, 2009, 03:32:43 PM

This thread has been one heck of a good read. I can't wait till I manage to find a handi in .357 so I can argue intelligently about it.

If you own a NEF/H&R single shot stotgun, you are only about $30 and a few hours away from having the 357 of your dreams!

maglvr44 · « **Reply #83 on:** October 12, 2009, 10:47:47 PM »

"Feral Ditch Cougars"!!!
LMAO, I Love it!!!!!!!!!!

spikehorn · « **Reply #84 on:** October 13, 2009, 05:54:53 AM »

Quote from: maglvr44 on October 12, 2009, 10:47:47 PM

"Feral Ditch Cougars"!!!
LMAO, I Love it!!!!!!!!!!

That is a good one! gotta remember that. In my part of the country we call em Low Brush Grizzly

Dee · « **Reply #85 on:** October 13, 2009, 07:49:41 AM »

I'm not the least bit confident on what a feral ditch cougar is. Knowing billy, I think I might, but I won't bet any money on it.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #86 on:** October 13, 2009, 09:19:50 AM »

Can you say kitty cat.

Dee · « **Reply #87 on:** October 13, 2009, 11:38:44 AM »

That's what I figured, as billy has mentioned his disdain for that particular little creature. It is one thing that I surely agree with him on. I just wasn't sure.

spikehorn · « **Reply #88 on:** October 13, 2009, 01:03:09 PM »

Okay i don't like em much either, but i thought he was talking about woodchucks thats what we call low brush grizzly

skarke · « **Reply #89 on:** October 13, 2009, 01:28:51 PM »

What about 357 mag in a 5 inch s and w? (I know, this is a handi rifle discussion, just curious)