Author Topic: 357 Mag Handi rifles no good for deer!!! (Read 11317 times)

NickSS · « **Reply #90 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:45:25 PM »

I will first admit to owning several 357 mag firearms both long and short versions. I have also killed deer with a 30 cal carbine which is more anemic than a 357 mag so I will concede that with proper bullet placement a 357 mag will kill a deer or just about anything else that walks on this planet. However, I have killed over 50 head of big game animals including 42 carabue, 15 white tail deer, one moose, several wild hogs and two antelope. I would rate any handgun cartridge except some of the recent cannon calibers as 50 yard deer rifles with proper bullet placement. I rate the 30-30 as a 100 yard max deer rifle. If you want to go to 200 yards reliably get a real rifle in a 30-06 class cartridge and if you want to reliably kill game animals at 300 yards get a magnum. Every year I hear of hunters wanting a rifle to kill animals out to 2 to 500 yards. I personally have watched hundreds of such hunters sight in their rifles every year for the past 35 years and believe me the average hunter does well to make a hit on a deers chest area at 100 yards to say nothing of 200 or more.

Personally I try to get as close as possible and be sure of my aim. This means that I pass up shots occationally. However, of the animals listed above only two were further than 200 yards away and they were the two antelopes. One was killed at 234 paces and the other at 256 paces from where I shot. Both were shot with a 30-06 and both were one shot kills.

petemi · « **Reply #91 on:** October 13, 2009, 03:03:45 PM »

The one advantage, as I see it, of the .357 over the .30-30 is its versatility for non-handloaders. If you ream a Handi .357 Mag to Maximum, you now can shoot 8 different interchangeable .38s, as well as .357 Magnum, 360 Dan Wesson, and .357 Maximum. With the .30-30....without reloading....you usually get a great choice of 150 or 170 grain bullets.

Pete

maglvr44 · « **Reply #92 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:19:10 PM »

Quote from: skarke on October 13, 2009, 01:28:51 PM

What about 357 mag in a 5 inch s and w? (I know, this is a handi rifle discussion, just curious)

I shoot a 5" S&W mod. 27 as well as the Handi, both use the same load (13gr. Lil-Gun, under a 200gr. Hardcast) I never chrono'd it but 1250fps would seem about right in the 5", penetration is measured in days!
A lot of folks don't realize(not pointing any fingers, just stating a common fact) that flat nose, hardcast bullets are another ball game altogether, anything FASTER than 1300fps. actually gives LESS penetration than a slower moving bullet, and in most calibers 1000fps-1200fps is optimum! It has to do with the speed at which tissue can release it's captive water content, remember almost all living tissue is in the 90% H2O range.
Faster is not even close to being better in the world of flat nose, hardcast!

This holds true with any caliber.

skarke · « **Reply #93 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:37:12 PM »

I shoot a 627 357 v comp. Wow what a nice gun. The trigger work is phenomenal. I can tell you that, out of a ground stand at bow distances, a 357 mag shooting 158 trunc cones ahead of a stout charge of blue dot has to be very potent, at least on the 125 lb Texas Whitetail.

They walk within 20 yards of me. We'll see.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #94 on:** October 13, 2009, 05:20:10 PM »

Nick, I've shot ten deer at over 150 yards with factory ammo from a 30-30 and only shot one of them twice. Course that wasn't a Handi, it was a Winchester 94.

Dee · « **Reply #95 on:** October 14, 2009, 01:58:55 AM »

Quote from: kevinsmith5 on October 13, 2009, 05:20:10 PM

Nick, I've shot ten deer at over 150 yards with factory ammo from a 30-30 and only shot one of them twice. Course that wasn't a Handi, it was a Winchester 94.

kevin, be quite while Nick is rating calibers.

I don't know how ole Nick is, but I have been shooting stuff with my same ole Model 94 Winchester 3030 for 51 years. At 250 yards Nick is a cinch, and my bet is there will enough energy when it gets there left to do the job! So is a 7" square target. There are a lot of folks here whom just love to pour over their latest charts, and graphs, and energy scales, and on and on. I too used to love to quote such facts in my youth.
HOWEVER! After 51 years of living with this same ole rifle and caliber, I have shot everything from squirrels to rabbits with down loaded cast bullets to 400 lb hogs, with jacketed 150s and 170s. It has also looked down the throats of some bad guys when it spent the first 10 years of my L.E. career as my go to rifle. AND! The Texas Highway Patrol was quite fond of it until the mid-70s, and when they got their mini14s many opted to keep their Winchesters.
Now if ole Nick knew what he was talking about, all those critters over the last 51 years would have grand children (or should I say grand critters).
My guess is ole Nick reads a lot, and believes most of what he reads, even though he doesn't know the author, but hey the author wrote a book, or drew a chart, or graph, or an energy scale.
Sorry Nick. I have actually been there and done that with the 3030, and you don't know what your talkin about. You just know what you've apparently read from all the gun rag writers, and formed your opinions from that. It certainly wasn't from actual use, or you would know differently.

jeepmann1948 · « **Reply #96 on:** October 14, 2009, 02:22:28 PM »

Very well & politely said Dee (much nicer than I Could / Would)

kinslayer1965 · « **Reply #97 on:** October 14, 2009, 05:24:17 PM »

Did he really say "a real rifle in the 30-06 class"?

All the venison in my freezer is now very confused and wondering hhhmmmm if he didn't use a real rifle why are we dead?

"I rate the 30-30 a hundred yard max deer rifle"

Again the freezer is emmiting sounds of confusion as at least three of them were harvested with a model 94 30-30 at over 150 yards. Actually that venison was eaten years ago I was just trying to make a point. I am guessing 100yards was his maximum range with any rifle with open sights.

"If you want to reliably kill game at 300yards get a magnum" what planet do you live on? There are many non magnum calibers that are effective way beyond 300 yards. Would I take a shot at a deer at 300yds with a lever action 30-30? The answer is no but that does not mean that the rifle is not capable of killing a deer at 300 yards it just means my ability ran out before the rifles did. If I had put as many rounds through my model 94 as Dee has I would probably have a different answer to that question. Familiarity with a given weapon counts for a lot.

Just my .02

petemi · « **Reply #98 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:06:08 AM »

My old marlin 336 .30-30 took its first deer at 225 yards known distance, fence line to fence line. The deer went down, got up, ran 50 yards and went over a stone wall into dense spruce. I went down there and it looked like you poured a bucket of blood across the ground and over the low wall. The breakfast bell went off up at the house, so I turned and went up for breakfast. After eating, I took the tractor and a wagon and went down there and pulled the wagon up to the wall. The deer, a 150 lb doe, was dead about 30 feet inside the trees.
The bullet took out a rib, a lung and the heart and passed through. It was a 170gr. Win. Silvertip. That was 50 years ago. At that time, I had eyes and the rifle wore its factory open sights.

The second was the same day in late afternoon. I was lying in prone position on a knoll in a field overlooking a brushy draw the deer traveled each day. I took a year and a half old doe going up the opposite slope with a bang flop head shot at 167 paces, same bullet and rifle. We were shooting on a block permit for 20 antlerless.

As a result of that day's hunt, I have never been afraid to use the .30-30 at 200 yards. I feel the 170 gr. gives better penetration.

Pete

An adder: I wouldn't hesitate to use the .357 Maximum at 200 yards either.

blind ear · « **Reply #99 on:** October 15, 2009, 05:45:36 AM »

If you are as close as I would have to be to count on a 6 inch kill zone hit, sure. I don't practice with my pistols these days so 25 yards is about as far as I will shoot a deer with a pistol. It's more fun hunting close than shooting long to me. eddiegjr

mannyrock · « **Reply #100 on:** October 15, 2009, 06:13:52 AM »

Well for goodness sakes Nick, "the .30-30 is a 100 yard max deer rifle." How could you say such a foolish thing? ((Notice, I didn't use any swear words.)

When my son was 10 years old, he shot his first buck, a large one standing broadside at 160 yards. (I measure this carefully after the shot, since it happened on our farm.) He had a Winchester Trapper, with an 18 inch barrel, loaded with factory 150 grain Remington Core-Lokts.

He only needed to shoot once. The shot went into the side of the deer, just behind the shoulder, and out the other, leaving an exit hole the size of a 50 cent piece. The deer walked 25 feet or so, and dropped dead.

Nick, do you actually have any idea what you are talking about? Why in the world would you just say stuff that isn't true?

The .30-30 has easily been taking deer, and much larger game, at 200 yards, for more than 110 years. By ammo sales, it is still the number one or two most popular centerfire rifle cartridge sold in America every year, FAR OUTSELLING the .30-06.

Mannyrock

maglvr44 · « **Reply #101 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:13:10 PM »

If anyone has the book "3001 questions and answers" (A.R. Harding) look through it for the guy that asked the effective range of the 30WCF (30-30), IIRC it was answered by long time gun expert Maurice H. Decker of FF&G magazine, his answer was 700 yards!!! Check it out if you have a copy laying around. There truly was a reason for those flip-up elevator sights back when men were men and wild meat kept them alive!

maglvr44 · « **Reply #102 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »

Quote from: petemi on October 15, 2009, 03:06:08 AM

My old marlin 336 .30-30 took its first deer at 225 yards known distance, fence line to fence line. The deer went down, got up, ran 50 yards and went over a stone wall into dense spruce. I went down there and it looked like you poured a bucket of blood across the ground and over the low wall. The breakfast bell went off up at the house, so I turned and went up for breakfast. After eating, I took the tractor and a wagon and went down there and pulled the wagon up to the wall. The deer, a 150 lb doe, was dead about 30 feet inside the trees.
The bullet took out a rib, a lung and the heart and passed through. It was a 170gr. Win. Silvertip. That was 50 years ago. At that time, I had eyes and the rifle wore its factory open sights.

The second was the same day in late afternoon. I was lying in prone position on a knoll in a field overlooking a brushy draw the deer traveled each day. I took a year and a half old doe going up the opposite slope with a bang flop head shot at 167 paces, same bullet and rifle. We were shooting on a block permit for 20 antlerless.

As a result of that day's hunt, I have never been afraid to use the .30-30 at 200 yards. I feel the 170 gr. gives better penetration.

Pete

An adder: I wouldn't hesitate to use the .357 Maximum at 200 yards either.

Surely there was a bolt of lightning you didn't see! we all know the 30-30 bullet drops to the ground like a bowling ball at the 100yrd. mark! LOL

skarke · « **Reply #103 on:** October 15, 2009, 03:30:37 PM »

I know, this is a handi rifle discussion about 357s, but I feel compelled to comment on the "30 30" debate. I've used a super 14 contender in 30 30 for many years, taking about 6 or 7 deer over the past 15 years at over 150 paces, but never over 200. I use 38 grains of 748 (which, btw, just about fills the case) behind a nosler bt 125. I also use a hand made sandbag rest with plain old sharpsand in a double bagged cotton shot holder (the ones we used to get). Out of a stand, or off of a tree, this makes for a rock steady platform.

At 2350 fps muzzle, excellent bc for a light bullet, this load blows BIG holes in whitetails and ferrel hogs at pretty good range. My contender shoots about 2 moa at worst, making it sufficiently accurate with a good rest to about 150 for accuracy; even more, that bullet still has great velocity and excellent terminal ballistics at that range out of a 3030.

I have taken about 20 deer over 25 years with my contender rig, and it is, to me, just not sportsmanlike to hunt with anything more. I just can't see myself hunting with a lazer accurate, 20 power scoped, super whizbang rifle that any 5 year old could shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards with.

When my heart starts pumping when the big one comes, it is pretty challenging to get one good shot downrange with a pistol. I'm actually going backwards now, hunting with a 209x50 encore pistol and a bow. I guess next I'll be throwing rocks.

FWIW, IMHO.

petemi · « **Reply #104 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:11:28 AM »

"we all know the .30-30 bullet drops to the ground like a bowling ball at the 100 yard mark"

I think most of us know it doesn't. It's like anything you shoot, ya just gotta spend some time and learn it. Most "deer Hunters" sight their rifles in at 50 or 100 yards one time. Take them out opening day, hunt with them and put them back in the rack til next year. I've heard people say "A box of ammo lasts me 15 or twenty years." Those folks don't have a clue as to what's going on with their rifle and ammo.

Pete

Dee · « **Reply #105 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:33:12 AM »

petemi, I agree with you in this remark, but having past been guilty of the offense I'm ABOUT to embark on is just as prevalent, and as I said, in my younger days fell victim to my own addiction.
Many today, have fallen victim to the "so called expert", i.e. the gun writers, and gun magazines. I used to pour over those things and run out and buy the latest issues, and then let the trading and buying begin. I honestly don't have a clue of how many guns I have owned, but it has to be well over a hundred.
In my heyday of buying, trading, experimenting, I had an old friend ask me one day. What will that rifle do, that your Winchester WON'T do? I made up some long winded explanation which he politely accepted, but obviously did not buy, and I was left in the uncomfortable seat, of deep down knowing he was right.
After all the buying, and experimenting, I realized, that many of these guns, I did not KNOW PERSONALLY, and because of the sheer volume, I did not have the time to spend to get to know them all. Age brought this fact closer and closer.
After years of back and forth, I sold all but 3 rifles, and two shotguns, and two pistols. It wasn't a money thing. For me, it was a common sense thing. Two of the rifles have IDENTICAL SIGHTS, (same brand apertures, & front sights), and one of which I have shot for over 51 years. And one is a totally different cat, but one I am intimately familiar with because of my past trade. The shotguns? One is a standard 870 I have owned for 30 years, and the other an auto expressly put together by me, for fighting. The handguns? One for summer, and one for winter in the carrying dept.
Did I mention that I also save money and only subscribe to two magazines, neither of which are specifically about guns.
Now before you gun nuts attack me, let me say, I don't care if a semi backs up to your door every Friday with a load of the latest guns. I'm just saying that I know my guns PERSONALLY. And I hit what I shoot at, and I know when to shoot. But that's just me, and my two cents.

Now I can say that we have drifted FAR OFF THE MARK, concerning the 357mag for deer. Have we not?

petemi · « **Reply #106 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:06:05 AM »

Yes Dee, we've drifted, but it's been infomative. I own a lot of rifles and a few handguns, but in recent years, I've gravitated to my Handis in .45-70, .44 Mag (now .445 SM) and my .357 and .357 Max. I shoot one or some of them almost every day at different ranges simply to learn what we, the rifle and I, can or cannot do. And, I'm getting an education. The .45-70 is sighted in at 200, I know exactly where it is at 300. The .445 and Max are sighted in at 100, and I know where they're going at 200. The .357 Mag is sighted in at 50, and 100 is easy. The greater distances above are the limits at which I would be comfortable taking a deer with that particular rifle. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying those ranges are the maximum effective ranges, they're what I personally am comfortable with.

Pete

Graybeard · « **Reply #107 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:09:45 AM »

I look on rifles chambered to both the .357 Magnum and .30-30 as iron sight guns and thus am limited in range by the sighting equipment more so than the round itself. Were I willing to scope either the range could be extended a good deal but I just don't.

I figure I'm about a 100 yard shooter with irons and figure both rounds certainly up to the task at that distance so to me max range for either is a moot point.

petemi · « **Reply #108 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:22:18 AM »

Bill, I'm the same way about my traditional muzzleloaders....I will NOT put a scope on them. The .45-70 wears a 3-9X50, the Max has a 3-9x40 and the other two wear red dots which really help with my bad right eye. I probably, eventually will be forced to put red dots on all of them.

Pete

skarke · « **Reply #109 on:** October 16, 2009, 04:03:35 AM »

Yes, I too use iron sights to hunt with now. I learned on them, and I can still see well enough to shoot a contender pistol pretty far, providing I have my little sandbag friend with me.

Since I've gone the ML route of late, a scope would be just plain silly on a 15 inch barrel.

Last, bow hunting is pretty cool, it's like a long, skinny 357 handi rifle without the, uh, well, I guess it's really pretty different, but fun.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #110 on:** October 16, 2009, 01:41:13 PM »

I hunt with open sights and plan on doing that until my eyes go bad. Last season was the first year I hunted with a scope but my bad back told me that the extra weight wasn't worth it, especially since my eyes are still good enough that there isn't much difference between me shooting irons vs. a scope. Handi's carry VERY nicely without a scope mounted. I do use a scope on my .22 Sportster, it helps with those little red tree rats.

Dee · « **Reply #111 on:** October 16, 2009, 02:09:36 PM »

I just put an aperture on both mine and kept huntin. Course I did that about 40 years ago.

Doublebass73 · « **Reply #112 on:** October 16, 2009, 03:50:29 PM »

Quote from: Dee on October 16, 2009, 02:09:36 PM

I just put an aperture on both mine and kept huntin. Course I did that about 40 years ago.

Good point Dee, when my eyes no longer allow opens it will be on to apertures with scopes only as a last resort.

Dee · « **Reply #113 on:** October 16, 2009, 04:03:33 PM »

Before I sold it, I could put three consecutive shots in a silver dollar gambling token at 100 yards with an aperture sighted M1A. AFTER, my eye surgery. My eye doctor has one in his display case in his office. They are nothing more than an unmagnified scope, and will clear up old age far sightednes many times.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #114 on:** October 16, 2009, 04:25:37 PM »

Quote from: Dee on October 16, 2009, 04:03:33 PM

Before I sold it, I could put three consecutive shots in a silver dollar gambling token at 100 yards with an aperture sighted M1A. AFTER, my eye surgery. My eye doctor has one in his display case in his office. They are nothing more than an unmagnified scope, and will clear up old age far sightednes many times.

Did you have lasik? I had this done and it improved my vision and both Iron and open sighted shooting immensly. Even my night vision is far better than with glasses.

Buckeye · « **Reply #115 on:** November 04, 2009, 07:29:42 AM »

I think the 357 Mag. with a tuff bullet 158gr. or a 180 out of a carbine is a deer /Blackbear harvester for sure.

but i wouldn't chose it over the 30-30 SD & BC those short 357 bullets just don't come close...and we all know how well the 150gr. 170gr. simple factory fodder works through the ole 30-30..not to mention those top end bullets..yes I've killed deer with both ..and I would chose the 30-30 over the 357mag...A deer broadside at 75yd.s will go down to ethier.. a quartering shot at 150yd.s ..well then the 30-30 would be the choice...
my opinion....