Author Topic: Mdl 97, 44 special (Read 7721 times)

c.r. · « **on:** October 05, 2009, 05:08:19 AM »

I have been kicking around the idea of getting a 97 in 44 spec. for some time now.

Before I continue down this slippery slope, i'm wondering about the possibility of shooting heavier bullets in the FA. I'm thinking this gun must offer more flexibility than shooting various length ~250 gr bullet at ~1200 fps (which don't get me wrong is nice for such a small package).

But my question is, does anybody shoot bullets heavier than ~250 gr, possibly up to 300? And if so, are you using 44 mag data from reloading manuals?

I reckon the answer is going to be, "if you want 44 mag performance, then buy a 44 mag", but i'm curious if anybody is using this platform to shoot heavier bullets....... 270+ grain bullets.

Oh, and are most folks shooting .429 bullets. I believe I read on here that anything >.429 starts giving giving trouble chambering.

Thank you,
c.r.

BigBoreSixgun · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2009, 01:53:10 PM »

I own a 6.5'' F.A. 97 in 44special.
I've played with bullets up to 310grs. I didn't try to push them to magnum speeds,but I found results quite acceptable. The hottest i've loaded mine is with the RCBS250K and Lyman 429244GC. Both with Alliant 2400 powder aproaching 1200fps.Personaly,I like the Lyman 429215 at 1200fps with Alliant2400.
Everyday load is 429215@825fps with w231.
I size all my bullets for this gun .4305''

BigBoreShooter

paul105 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2009, 04:27:35 PM »

First of all, let me say that I can’t believe I waited so long to buy a M97 in .44 special – it is just plain fun and VERY SHOOTABLE.

Last week I bought a previously owned, new in the box, 5 ½” Model 97 in .44 special. It’s pretty basic except for a fluted cylinder. The trigger pull is a little heavy (it didn’t a have a trigger job) but manageable. I checked the cyl throats with a set of pin gauges (mine are the + variety) – throats on my .44 spcl will accept the .429+, but not the .430+, so I’ll say the throats are .4295. My gun will chamber Leadheads 250gr Keith’s sized .430” and 240gr Laser Cast SWCBB sized .431” when seated normally and crimped in the crimp grove. The gun will not chamber Montana Bullet Works 260gr WFNGC sized .433”. Of course, this doesn’t mean that the gun you get will do any of the above.

I haven’t done any real load development (or accuracy testing) so far. To get some plinking loads, I set out to get the Dillon to throw 16.5gr A2400 (ended up at 16.7gr). With Starline cases and Win WLR primers (the only large pistol primers I have) I shot some three, 3 shot groups at 25 yards using a Lyman 250 Keith 429421 (.429”), Mt Baldy 250 Keith .430”, and 240gr SWCBB Lasercast at .431”. Just wanted to get an idea of gen’l accy and poi. The Lasercast 240gr was the best at just under 2”. I was getting some leading, so I decided to shoot some 180gr XTP HPs (Midway Blem sale purchase) with the same charge of 2400 to maybe smooth things up a bit before doing some serious load development. That 180gr load (maybe 1,000 fps) shot real well for me on paper (2” offhand for 10 shots at 20 yds) and was deadly on 9” plates at 50 yds after changing out the front sight (.380” vs. .430).

Brian Pearce wrote and article in Handloader Mag #236 (Aug 2005), on loads for the .44 special, grouping them in three categories (15,500 psi or less, 22,000 psi or less, and 25,000 psi or less). One of the 25,000 psi category loads was:
307gr Dry Creek cast SWC, Win Cases, 15.5gr H-110, Fed 155 Mag Primer,
At 1,057 fps from a 4 ¼” FA 97. I haven’t tried this load.

Paul

c.r. · « **Reply #3 on:** October 09, 2009, 11:58:34 AM »

Thank y'all for the replies. Much appreciated.

~c.r.

doghawg · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2009, 03:09:11 PM »

I've got a 5 1/2" Mod 97 spl with the 3 lb. trigger and micarta grips and consider it a terrific little revolver. I've also got a permanent knobbie on my "naughty" finger knuckle from many years of trigger guards recoiling into it. This "knob" really isn't too bothersome unless it gets reaggravated. I've not messed with any super heavyweights but when 1200 fps is approached with 250 gr. Keiths my sweet little 97 becomes an obnoxious, flinch inducing, knuckle rapping beast.

This is NOT...I repeat NOT a rap on the gun. It's more of product of my hand size and the 97's grip size and those micarta grips are staying on it. When fed a diet of 250's over 7 1/2gr of Unique (Skeeters load) for 1000 fps this gun is accurate and pleasant for me to shoot and is by far my favorite belt gun. If I want to launch 300+ gr. bullets it's gonna be from a Mod 83.

Paul 105....When I tried hot-rodding my .44 spl 97 I couldn't help but wonder how you could stand those heavy bullet loads out of your 4 1/4" .45 Colt

but I guess it all depends on individual hand size etc. BTW I also had surprisingly good accuracy with the BB 240 gr. Laser Cast SWC's but I used HS6. Congratulations on your .44 spl.

freedom475 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2009, 05:46:06 PM »

Like to say hi to everyone ...this is a great place to read! I really enjoy all the Freedom arms topics

I have been reading here for a long time and this is my first post...

I have to ask... if you want to shoot the heavier boolits why not get the 45 colt.

I have the FA 97 4 1/4 barrel in 45 colt and it is a great shooter. Can bring it down to the 44spl. power level for taget shooting and fun. When I hike where the gizzlies roam I have a few loaded with 360gr. cast at 1080fps. It is a fine little package with much flexibility.

Favorite load is a 285gr. cast at 1100. This load is still pretty stiff in such a small package, but it is very accurate, easily managed and offers plenty of protection.

EdK · « **Reply #6 on:** October 10, 2009, 03:40:50 AM »

I think you are asking a reasonable question but I personally think the grip frame is pretty small for stepping the power up too far in that gun - nothing at all to do with the gun's ability to handle the loads.

paul105 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2009, 05:35:45 AM »

I've said it before, ad nauseum to some I'm sure, but if, for some reason, I could only have one handgun it would be the FA97, 4 1/4", .45 Colt. It is light weight, compact, portable, accurate, powerful, fun to shoot and can be loaded from mild to wild.

The good news is that, at least for now, I can have more than one handgun. My goal for the .44 Special is the 250gr Keith at 1,100 fps + or - depending upon what load shoots best. If I need a bigger bullet, I'll use the .45. I didn't mention this above, because c.r. asked about heavier bullets in the .44 spcl.

dawg,

good to see you posting again. Hope everything is well with you and yours.

Here's a pic of the above mentioned, "one gun only" .45 Colt.

Paul

c.r. · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2009, 04:07:37 PM »

Well I'm no longer kicking around the idea of a mdl 97........I am now waiting on a mdl 97. On 10/9, I placed my order and a deposit for a mdl 97........... 4 1/4" barrel, 44 special, with micarta grips and a 3 lb action job. We ordered some snap caps as well and the dealer has a cross draw holster in stock that he has set aside for me.

I have been thinking about this since at least March and I just couldn't say "No" any longer. I told myself back then that I should order it and get the wait over. I knew in my head it wasn't "if I was going to get one", but instead "When I was going to get one".

I have a feeling this little guy is going to be a blast.

~c.r.

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2009, 03:09:22 AM »

Good on 'ya.

6.5BR · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2009, 05:18:01 PM »

Did you get your 44 C.R.?

c.r. · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2009, 04:21:56 AM »

Quote from: 6.5BR on October 29, 2009, 05:18:01 PM

Did you get your 44 C.R.?

We ordered it from FA on the 9th, maybe the dealer placed the order a few days later.......... so i'm expecting ~12 week wait.............so late December or early January.....maybe a little later with the holidays and everything. Anything sooner will just be icing on the cake.

I'm really excited about this gun. I have a few rugers in 44 special and that cartridge in these medium frame platforms is quickly becoming my favorite. If i could only own one revoler, I don't know that it would be a 44 special or if it would be a medium frame revolver..........but since I can own more than one, I'm going to indulge in 44 specials on medium frame platforms.

In my current 44 specials, I shoot Skeeter's load and have had great results with it in all of them. With the FA, i will probably try using something near or at Keith's load. we'll see how well the gun likes it and IF i can shoot it well in this light gun.

This is probably more than you wanted to know, but.................

Thanks for asking,
~c.r

paul105 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2009, 05:24:48 AM »

c.r.

I think you are really going like it. I've had mine for a month. I've put around 600 rounds thru it. The recoil of the "Keith" load really suprised me -- favorably. For me, the recoil handling properties of the FA97 are superb -- as they say however, YMMV.

Here's an article by John Taffin on the FA97 .44 Special -- load data on page 4.

Woops, forgot to include link:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_5_50/ai_114283923/

Paul

c.r. · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2009, 05:36:16 PM »

Paul,

Thank you for the link. It's now been printed and will be placed with my other reloading material.

I have four of Mr. Taffin's books. I don't believe I've seen that 19 gr. of 2400 @ 1359 fps load. I reckon that one would try to get your attention.

I actually have found some load data for 300 gr. jacketed bullets. SOME editions of Hodgdon's #26 manual lists 4 loads for 300 gr bullets. All loads are less than 18,500 CUP and produced velocities below 800 fps.

However, some of the #26 manuals do not have the 300 gr. data. These stop at 250 gr data.

So Hodgdon either dropped or added the data during the printing of their #26. I don't believe I'll be trying any of the loads since I haven't been able to cross reference them. AND it's just odd that some of the #26 manuals have them and some don't. It has already been pointed out to me that the pressure listed for the W296 load is below the current recomended pressure for 296/h-110 to operate at.

~c.r.

paul105 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2009, 05:47:23 AM »

That 19.0gr load is for the Lyman #429215GC (215gr) not the 250gr Keith.

I tried Brian Pearce's 300gr SWC load I referenced above. I used Mt Baldy 300gr SWCs, didn't chronograph it, but It is not unpleasant to shoot.

I'm still experimenting, but currrently have my 5 1/2" sighted in for the 250s (429421 Western Bullet) with 17.0gr A2400. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I'll chrono this load in the near future.

I'm going to try the Lyman 429215 (215gr), but probably won't run it at JTs 1,329 fps.

Paul

c.r. · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2009, 08:14:11 AM »

Quote from: paul105 on October 31, 2009, 05:47:23 AM

That 19.0gr load is for the Lyman #429215GC (215gr) not the 250gr Keith.

I tried Brian Pearce's 300gr SWC load I referenced above. I used Mt Baldy 300gr SWCs, didn't chronograph it, but It is not unpleasant to shoot.

I'm still experimenting, but currrently have my 5 1/2" sighted in for the 250s (429421 Western Bullet) with 17.0gr A2400. Just to satisfy my curiosity, I'll chrono this load in the near future.

I'm going to try the Lyman 429215 (215gr), but probably won't run it at JTs 1,329 fps.

Paul

AHHHHH, i didn't catch that 215 part. Thanks

Paul, you mention chronographing the load.........October made it one year that I've been reloading now, a bit over 5k reloads. I picked up a chrono early on and simply get the biggest kick out of seeing exactly what my loads are doing. I get scolded for it, but I enjoy crunching the numbers and seeing a low standard deviation or extreme spread. I take pride in a low std deviation/extreme spread. Yes, the group on paper always trumps the numbers, but i just get a kick out of the numbers.

~c.r.

6.5BR · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:32:33 PM »

CR, thanks for the post.

Like to own a 97 in Sp. or 41 mag in 4.25 or 5.5" but funds tight....Rugers looking better from that standpoint. Rumors of a 44 Sp. in SS by Ruger is getting my attention...

Hmmm a Grover No. 5 in either cal. above might be just the ticket if Ruger would do them.

benny · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2009, 07:52:52 AM »

97 4-1/4" 41 mag, micarta, round butt, express/fiber optic sights, trigger job. since i've had it i have never seen or handled any other gun that could ever make me think of parting with it...

2 dogs · « **Reply #18 on:** December 12, 2009, 04:11:42 PM »

Dont let the light weight of the 429215 GC bullet turn you off. My FA97 launches them at 1200 fps with exceptional accuracy and mild recoil!!!

c.r. · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2010, 03:52:53 PM »

I received this little guy today..........Here's my mdl 97 in 44 spec along with a set of snap caps and a cross-draw holster. I don't even know what to say about this revolver other than than the fit is nothing but impressive. Feels like it is going to be a very handy revolver.

I attempted to insert some 44 spec. Skeeter loads with a .431 leadhead keith bullet. the cartridge would not quite seat far enough to allow the cylinder to rotate. So I followed the advice from Paul105 and sized down my leadhead keith bullets to .430 using my Lee bullet sizer. made up one dummy round. It fit perfect. Made up another four just for a larger sample and all of them fit fine,cylinder rotated with no problem.

I can't recomend Mr. Taylor enough. He rec'd the revolver this past friday and was able to get it out to me first thing Monday before he left town on business. It arrived here today. I also couldn't be more pleased with FA. Take a look at your calendar and look at the major holidays between Oct. 9th and Jan. 8th. Even with those holidays, the revolver was delivered on time.

here's to hoping the weather cooperates and I can get out and shoot it this weekend. I'm going to work up quite a few of Skeeter's load, and then a number of 10-round loads working up toward Keith's load. Run all of these over the chrony while shooting groups.

I also came across a for-sale-ad for a fiber optic front sight of the correct height. The price was good and it will let me see if i like the fiber optic sight w/o paying full price for one. Looks like it will be here in the next few days or so. I have a Leupold M8 2x that i'm also going to mount to the gun to test loads with. I will be purchasing one of the Lovell mounts for use with the scope.

I do have a question, does anybody make a "narrower" front sight for the FA? I thought......could be wrong.......but I thought somebody was making custom FA sights.

~c.r.

paul105 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:20:57 AM »

Not aware of any "narrower" front sights other than the FA Fiber Optic (pic below). Ken ONeill makes a real nice front sight that gives a better sight picture than the the standard FA ramp front -- I'll try to get a picture this afternoon.

Keep us posted with your observations/results.

Paul

paul105 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2010, 12:49:08 PM »

Ken ONeill's front sight.

c.r. · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2010, 04:04:32 PM »

Paul,

Yes, Mr. O'Neill is the gentleman I was thinking of. Thank you for the pics and info. I may have to see if I can get ahold of one.

I was able to get to the range Sat. & Sun.. I ran 170 rounds through it. I mainly focused on two loads, Skeeter's load and working up to Keith's load. I only have one .44 - 250 keith bullet, I ended up sizing it down to .429.

Skeeter's load chono'd at 946 fps, and the Keith load at 1155 fps. Of course that is only one day and I haven't been back out to verify the data. Honestly, i don't know what to think about the 1155 fps. Mr. Taffin writes that he achieved 1270 fps in a short barrel FA, shooting the standard Keith load. (i'm assuming his data is for a 5 1/2" barrel). Quite a bit of difference. I was curious if anybody has any chrono data they'd be willing to share for the two mentioned loads and barrel lengths.........just for comparison. I am using WLP primers. I am a bit surprised with the 946 fps, I have data for the same load in 4" and 4-5/8" 44 special conversions on Rugers that do 993 and 980 fps. However the bullet was sized at .431 in those loads.

I did notice some bullet crimp "creep" w/ the heavier loads, however that will be fixed with a firmer crimp. The gun handles great. I really like the FA grip. Recoil with the heavier loads is nothing unreasonable.........not at all what I was expecting from what I've read.

I honestly like the sight picture the sights provide. I haven't tried the fiber optic sight yet.

I plan on putting quite a bit of time in with this revovler over the next months.

~c.r.

myronman3 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 20, 2010, 12:56:05 PM »

that is one helluva nice looking gun. i am totally jealous.

doghawg · « **Reply #24 on:** January 21, 2010, 02:29:25 PM »

Hello C.R.

My 5 1/2" clocks just at or a couple feet over 1000 fps with Skeeters load so your numbers seem about right for a 4 1/4 incher. I wimped out a little short of Elmers load....if only there was somewhere else to put that middle knuckle.

Mine also does very well with HS6 under the 250 gr. Keith, actually a little more accurate than Unique. I also found a pleasant shooting load with the Lee 200 gr. RF (actual 206 gr.) over Win 231 that clocks at 850 fps and shoots to the same sight setting as the heavier load. All bullets have been sized to .430".

Congrats on your gun! I thought long and hard about a 4 1/4" when ordering....wish I could afford one of each. The .44 spl in a Mod 97 make a perfect marriage IMO.

BTW....I'm doghawg on the other forum...A name given for being an aggressive prairie dog shooter.

c.r. · « **Reply #25 on:** January 21, 2010, 06:07:55 PM »

Howdy Dawg,

thank you for that front sight. Sorry about your Packers.

I went back and forther between 4 1/4" vs. 5 1/2" as well. then the whole 45Colt or 44 spcl. I don't think there's a wrong choice. I probably chose the 44 spcl as much for the writings of Skeeter, Keith, and more recently Mr. Taffin's writings as I did for any other reason.

I have some HS-6 that I bought to use with 310 grain LBT bullets for a medium 45 Colt load (using some of Mr. Linebaugh's 45Colt data). I've decided instead to focus on H-110 with that bullet for some heavier loads. HS-6 meters SOOOOO much better than unique. It's not that i mind Unique, it's just that I can't really get that stuff to meter well. So I weigh my charges quite frequently and it drives me nuts. Honestly, I have been hoping to find a load that I could use the HS-6 in the 44 spcl pushing a ~250gr keith bullet. Would you mind pm'ing your load using HS-6?

I'm also looking for H4227 so that I can test Mr. Taffin's load. I won't shoot Keith's load in any of my other 44 specialls, but it would be good to find ~950 to ~1,000 fps load (other than using Uniqe) that can be my bulk reload and go-to load in all of my 44 spcls.

I actually contacted Wolfe Publishing today and ordered the Aug '05 magazine that Paul mentioned earlier in this thread. I've heard a number of folks mention that article. Then there is the 215 gr load that 2Dogs mentions. I really need to outline a game plan and approach this with at least a bit of logic.

one mistake that I've made recently is buying a number of guns w/o really giving myself the chance to get comfortable with one single revolver.......or even a cartridge for that matter. I've put the breaks on my puchasing for a while.......well maybe

I'm going to focus on loads for my 44 specials and a heavy hunting load for my Huntington 45 Colt. Then shoot the FA and my Huntington 45 exclusively for a good while. Or at least that's the game plan.

~c.r.

doghawg · « **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2010, 03:53:15 AM »

C.R.

I was stationed in Fort Hood just before shipping over to Viet Nam. The Packers played the Cowboys in the '66 super bowl....the famous "ice bowl"....and won. About half of the barracks was composed of Texans...some of 'em were big ill-tempered dudes....so I had to keep my yankee celebrating down to a respectful level.

I use the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure and a #12 rotor drops 10.2 gr. of HS6. Under a 240 gr. Sierra HP that charge clocked 1050 fps and a little faster with the 250 gr. cast. Fed 150 standard primers gave vertical stringing but the hotter Win lp "std or mags" produced really outstanding groups. Makes me wonder how well the gun would shoot with optics.

Yosemite Sam · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2010, 07:05:37 AM »

Congrats on getting it, c.r.! I was thinking of you recently, and actually planned on sending you a message today to see if you got it yet. Popped on here first and I see you've had it for a week already. Very good!

I'll have to admit a brief bout of questioning my purchase some time after getting my 5.5" .45 Colt 97. Not really buyer's remorse, because it's hard to be remorseful about a thing of such beauty, but more little niggly details: The grip is kind of small for my hand; The small grip frame keeps my knuckles too close to the trigger guard; Due to the hand position imposed by the grip the meat of my index finger is firmly planted against the frame of the gun when I pull the trigger, where it should be hanging out in space; The short cylinder pretty much limits me to 250-260 gr bullets; The expense alone makes you wonder if you did the right thing, and then any doubts are amplified by that.

Then I take it out to the range and my doubts disappear.

I received my brass bead front sight this week and installed it last night. It looks like the fiber optic sight above, only brass.

I will say that the 4-1/4" model would be the ultimate packing pistol, if your goal was to pack a single action. I can't believe how svelte and petite even the 5.5" is.

Quote from: c.r. on January 21, 2010, 06:07:55 PM

one mistake that I've made recently is buying a number of guns w/o really giving myself the chance to get comfortable with one single revolver.......or even a cartridge for that matter. I've put the breaks on my puchasing for a while.......well maybe I'm going to focus on loads for my 44 specials and a heavy hunting load for my Huntington 45 Colt. Then shoot the FA and my Huntington 45 exclusively for a good while. Or at least that's the game plan.

~c.r.

I hear you, and have been doing the same. It's time to settle down and do some shooting!

-- Sam

c.r. · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2010, 03:40:46 PM »

Sam.........email sent to you.

~c.r.

paul105 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 26, 2010, 03:51:16 PM »

c.r.

I chronoed some loads Sunday from my 5.5” M97 .44 Special. Outside air temp was 24 Deg F. The ammo was in the house (about 68 Deg F), and transferred directly to a warm truck. Took about 20 Min to get to the range. Ammo stayed in truck (not running), passenger side seat with door opened and closed to load each test batch. I shot each string pretty fast – the gun stayed warm.

300gr Keith .430, BHN 11 Mt Baldy Bullets 15.5 gr H110, 2x Starline, Win LP
Avg. 991 fps, Hi 1,031 fps, Lo 965 fps, ES 66 fps.

300gr Keith .430, BHN 11 Mt Baldy Bullets 16.1 gr H110, 2x Starline, Win LP
Avg. 1,047 fps, Hi 1,077 fps, Lo 1,029 fps, ES 48 fps.

255gr Keith (429421) .4285, BHN (Lyman #2 Equiv – seems softer to me) Western Bullet, 17.0 gr A2400, 2x Starline, Win LP
Avg. 1,220 fps, Hi 1,271 fps, Lo 1,186 fps, ES 85 fps.

255gr Keith (429421) .4285, BHN (Lyman #2 Equiv – seems softer to me) Western Bullet, 8.1 gr Power Pistol, 2x Starline, Win LP
Avg. 963 fps, Hi 978 fps, Lo 944 fps, ES 34 fps.

255gr Keith (429421) .4285, BHN (Lyman #2 Equiv – seems softer to me) Western Bullet, 10.2 gr HS6, 2x Starline, Win LP
Avg. 1,002 fps, Hi 1,049 fps, Lo 974 fps, ES 75 fps.

Some of the Extreme Spreads (ES) greater than I normally get. Don’t know if this is due to outside air temp, light conditions effecting chrono or

That’s the frustrating thing about chronos.

Some observations.

My current 8Lb lot of H110 is slower than previous lots I’ve chronoed. I wouldn’t go below 16.1 gr with the 300gr and this lot of powder might even kick it up .5 gr.

The recoil of the 300gr Keith/16.1 gr H110 was less than that of the 255gr Keith/17.0 A2400.

The 8.1gr of Power Pistol was a real pleasant load to shoot.

Paul