Fussy rifles ..... Ammunition wise

[Brithunter]

Hmmm how many have come across really fussy rifles when it comes to feeding them ammunition that will provide reasonable accuracy?

We are not talking about benchrest type accuracy here but normal factory acceptance accuracy of about 1 1/2" or less at 100 yards  and yes I know a lot of factory rifles shooting factory ammunition will do 1" and sometimes less in grouping but let's be sensible here 

This is what brought this up it's a rifle I acquired some time ago now to upgrade one in my small collection. Now this particular rifle is from either 1963 or 1965 ( the view mark is blurred  ) but is in very good condition. The stock has a few compression marks that could be from the bolt of another rifle in storage?  and I am in a quandry as to if I should strip off the factory varnish and steam them out and oil finish it or leave as is  . The bore show little wear but has not been bore scoped so it's just by eye however I cannot see much wear in the throat and bore in unpitted in fact it's like a mirror which one would expect for their production during this period.

Now I brought the rifle at a gun show, it was what you would call a walk in, he wanted to sell but could not get any of the dealers to make an offer let alone a sensible one. A dealer friend who was asked about it sent him to me as I like these old BSA's and have a few of them. This particular one is a 1st Pattern Monach and I already had a pretty beat up example that shoot well considerign the bore is well worn.

Now this one even has the iron sights and even the fore sight hood still in place  something you don't see often here in the UK and I was expecting excellent accuracy for it but was very dissapointed when using handloads that shoot well in my other .270 Win chambred BSA's shot poorly through this. Even the few factory rounds I had did not group well. So I cleaned the bore with copper solvent and did get quite a bit of fouling out but the accuracy was not much better. Even tried iron sights and a different scope with not much success.

After leaving it for some time and considering the options and decided to try some new factory ammo as that I had...................... well let's say it's been in my cupboard for a few years  so a trip to the gunshop was in order followed by a near heart attack at the prices  my original plan of buying about three different types to try was modified to buying one in my price range. They had some Speer Nitrex at an affordable price so I brought two boxes to try, well that wa smoney wasted as it won't shoot aworth a hoot accuracy wise in any of my rifles so it was back to the drawing board  . A couple of weeks later a visit to a different shop produced some Federal fusion 150 grain. Again two boxes were procured and tried on the range and I was very pleased when at last groups instead of patterns were the result  .

The puzzling thing is why this particular rifle should be so fussy, as I said it's factory standard  with a pressure point at the fore stock tip, it is not and WILL NOT be free floated even though I fully realise that would be the first thing most would try however I do not want to ruin it's factory specs and just by trying a few different types of off the shelf ammunition and found some that the rifle likes without altering it in any way.

[mannyrock]

Dear Brit,

   It's not the ammunition. It's the danged rifle.  OK, so you have a rifle that is factory spec.  And ya know what?  It shoots like junk.

   Over here in the Colonies, it is not unusual at all for us to buy a brand new, high quality rifle, right out the box, and have it show the types of problems you are describing.  And what do we do? We tune the rifle. That's what you are suppose to do.  You free float the barrel or adjust the pressure point, bore lap the barrel, check the action bedding, adjust action screws, until it shoots well.  If it doesn't, then it has a bad barrel from the factory, and nothing will fix that.

  Factory spec is just a machine-measurement standard, that will, on average, produce the highest number of reasonably accurate rifles as they come off of the assembly line out of the factory.  It is not a talisman, or a touchstone, or something Holy.  It is just a starting point, to be adjusted as necessary for accuracy.
 
   Now, I totally understand the hobby of firearms collecting.  And I could totally understand why someone would love to collect high quality BSA rifles, and keep them in original factory condition and spec.  But then, it is totally unreasonably to think that each of those rifles will be a good shooter, or that you can make each one a good shooter.  Statistically, you are going to pick up the stray junkers, that just won't shoot as built.   

   I don't believe that you can have it both ways.  Either collect them and keep them pristine, with all shooting flaws, or shoot them and tune them, to modify them into the very accurate rifles.

 Best,

Mannyrock

[Catfish]

My first centerfire rifle was a .270 Win. on a 98 Mauser action. You could shoot all day with 110 gr. Sierra bullets and 4831 powder and cover the hole with a nickel and it didn`t matter what the powder charge was. But with any other bullet or powder you could just keep them in a 4 in circle at 100 yrds. In fact the 150 gr. bullets would tumble.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm interesting comments .................. thank you 

We will see how it does when I get the next lot of Federal ammo, depending upon price, I may just buy a box of another make to try as well  .

Sorry mannyrock but I really do not like the free float idea and as for expecting poor perfomance    ............ Nope BSA and Parker-hale shot the rifles for accuracy. BSA during this period were cut rifling and not hammer forging like they introduced later on and the bores are lapped and I ahve found at least one laod that shoots well so I will continue the experiment.

Perhaps I am greedy expecting my cake and easting it 

[chutesnreloads]

Sounds a bit like one of mine except that mine hasn't grouped any factory ammo well at all.Action and barrel are bedded and makes no difference.However I have one handload it like and shoots them under an inch and sometimes under 3/4".If I were you I'd try and buy as many boxes of the same lot of that ammo that's working as possible.Either that or keep trying to find a handload it likes.

[Dave in WV]

 From another forum written by an Austrailian gun writer.

When you shoot a large triangular group, seat the bullet out 1/4 turn of your seating die and shoot again and repeat until the group shrinks, as it will.

When you shoot the most agravating of groups with 2 bullet holes touching and the third off towards "Pluto", seat the bullets in deeper 1/4 turn of the seating die, "even if it's factory ammo" and reshoot the groups until that third bullet comes into the group, as it will.

My son  used the second prctice and it worked.

[R.W.Dale]

when I have a rifle that won't shoot X bullet or ammo I always proceed to try a totally different bullet profile and weight

EXAMPLE

Ive owned a few 30-06'es that wouldn't shoot 168grn HPBT match bullets worth beans but that will then turn round with 125 grn flat based bullets and shoot ragged little bug holes

[Casull]

Sorry mannyrock but I really do not like the free float idea

What don't you like about it?  I mean that is the way 1/2 mile or better sniper rifles are set up.

[R.W.Dale]

Sorry mannyrock but I really do not like the free float idea

What don't you like about it?  I mean that is the way 1/2 mile or better sniper rifles are set up.

Id just like to say that in my opinion free floating on a sporter weight barrel is NOT the accuracy holy grail the gun writers and interweb have you guys believing.

One of the most accurate hunting weight rifles Ive ever owned or seen is a (get this) Ruger m77 Mk11 AllWeather with a boat paddle stock that you can't cram in a piece of paper anywhere between the barrel channel and barrel

[Brithunter]

Sorry mannyrock but I really do not like the free float idea

What don't you like about it?  I mean that is the way 1/2 mile or better sniper rifles are set up.

Your comparing apples to oranges a proper sniper rifle is way more expensive than the normal production rifle AND they time and money getting the bedding right 1st time. In my opinion free floating in production rifles is a cost cutting feature as it costs next to nothing to hog out the barrel channel to free float it but to actually bed it properly with a fore tip pressure point takes a little time and a skilled operative. Which one do you think the accountant likes?

I have 4 rifles that are floated, one I did myself BEFORE I realised the lies being foisted upon us. That's my sporterised Swedish Mauser which actually needs bedding now as the weight of the floated barrel has compressed the wood under the front of the action over the years. The sporterisation was done commercially in the US but by whom I don't know  It's accurate but they Swedish Mausers are known for their accuracy  the others are a Sportco M44 single shot target rifle, a Parker-Hale 1200V with bull barrel. P-H didn't use the normal steel recoil bolts in these and instead glass bedded to stocks. It's the only model they did like this. The last one is a modern design so has the "common" cost cutting modern manufacture and a floated barrel. Not surprising really as it was aimed at the American market so it has a tubular steel reciever into which the barrel clamps, the reciever is really a guide for the bolt as the bolt lock up is in the barrel with a multi lug bolt. In fact the bolt has 16 lugs  yes sixteen of them. The rifle of course is the Mauser M96 Slide Bolt and whilst it shoots OK and I have some fond memories of hunts done with it will be up for sale very soon as I need to make space for a customised Midland .243.

My most accurate rifles are all bedded in fact my most accurate one the barrel is hand bedded into the stock wood, but again it's an unfair comparision as it was a hand made rifle, next up is a toss up between a P-H 1100 Lwt .308 and a BSA CF2 7x57 both of which had fore tip pressure point bedding not far behind them after yesterdays range session has got to be the Baikal MH18 .222 Rem chambered break barrel single shot rifle and I was just trying some factory Sako ammo out both the range owner and I out 3 shots into 1/2" from a rest. Now in both groups there is two shots through one hole and one  just to the left of them. His group was 1 1/4" lower than mine which I put down to the differences in bench technique. I hold the forestock whilst he didn't and the rifle is only fitted with a 4x Leupold Compact M8 scope, one of higher magnification might tighten up the gouping more as would getting rid of the creep in the trigger, but that's a project for another day.

[mannyrock]

Britthunter,

   You are obviously very experienced with rifles, but I must say that I feel that you have adopted a dogmatic idea about free-floating that is simply not true.

   Each rifle must be taken on its own.  Each is a different machine.  I am not a target-rifle shooter. I only shoot hunting rifles.   I have had rifles that wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and as soon as I free-floated the barrel, they would immediately settle in at 1 inch groups or less with factory Remington Core-Lokt ammo.  (This has especially been true of medium caliber rifles with thinner sporting barrels.)

    I have also had rifles that were free floated, that wouldn't shoot, and as soon as I located they proper pressure point about an inch behind the tip of the forestock, and installed a permanent shim, they would immediately settle in to 1 inch or less with factory ammo.

   I have been shooting rifles for 45 years, and the dogmatic ideas you express simply do not accord with my experience.  Ideas are just that, ideas. They are not reality.
   
   Brit, you have listed the few rifles you own, but over here in America, I am sorry to say that they would not even qualify as a collection.  (In many parts of America, it would not be uncommon to see that many rifles and more being sold in a casual yard sale on the side of the road on a Saturday afternooon.)   Most rural American homes probably have more rifles in their broom closet than you currently own.  And, most of the serious rifle hobbyists  I know own and shoot 20 to 30 rifles at a time, and have probably owned more than a 150 in their lifetime.

  After you have owned and tuned 150 hunting rifles, come back and tell us of your experience.  I believe you will find it more in accord with ours.  :-)

Regards,

Mannyrock

   

[Brithunter]

LOL 

Most rural American homes probably have more rifles in their broom closet than you currently own.  And, most of the serious rifle hobbyists  I know own and shoot 20 to 30 rifles at a time, and have probably owned more than a 150 in their lifetime.

  After you have owned and tuned 150 hunting rifles, come back and tell us of your experience.  I believe you will find it more in accord with ours.  :-)

Sorry ole chap I should not say for security reasons but you need a darned big broom closset to fit my rifles into  a favorite saying of the Police Licensing officer at police HQ about me is:-

We have dealers who have less rifles than you do! 

  You are obviously very experienced with rifles, but I must say that I feel that you have adopted a dogmatic idea about free-floating that is simply not true.

Hmmm well I am not quite a beginner and I really do hate to see short cuts made just to cut a bit of cost 

also the free floated mantra is spouted, quoted and recommended in just about every article whether it's in magazines of one the internet. I really do feel that the main reason that free floating is so pushed is the use of cheap kiln dried timber. Again it's the cheapening again  Of course now they want us to all swallow cheap plastic and synthetics for handles and quite frankly I don't want to know them. They are the most unfriendly and uncomfortable things to use and yes I have shot Vanguards, Remington 700 VSS, Tikka T3's. Steyr TRG and the Sako 75 and I don't like any of them in their cheap plastic wraps 


If well dried quality walnut is used and fitted properly then the bedding will not alter  I have some rifles that are over 100 years old and yet their bedding is still perfect, no floated barrels for the old world craftsmen  they also didn't use cheap kiln dried wood either.

I suggest you read just the posts on these forums and you will see time after time :-

I floated the barrel

checked with a folded doller bill to make sure it was floated

  etc........ ect

Now on one collectable rifle I did just inlet the stock on the right hand side to fit a Redfield #70 RWH reciever sight and once I can get a higher fore sight insert for the ramp I will zero it and hopefully next summer it will got Roe stalking again  I could have used the P-H 6EH reciever sight off another BSA but wanted the minute click adjustments which the simplified 6EH does not have.

All but oen of my rifles are sporting/hunting rifles and the lone military rifle will be finding a new home soon I have owned it for a dozen years or so so someone else can care for the history and appreciate it now.

[diggler1833]

I've got a .17HMR that is MOA with one factory load, 1.25 MOA with two others, and about 5 MOA with about three others.  If you handload, there is your best bet to improving accuracy.  Free floating and glass bedding doesn't always make a rifle more accurate (more consistant, yes/and it probably will lead to an increase in accuracy).  Some rifles like a pressure point, although I'd also say that tuning a load will make up for that. 

The only thing I can say, and has probably been said before is work on your handloads or if you are using factory ammunition, give them all a try...especially the premium ones.  I see a lot of guys brining a nice rifle out to the range and then gripe when they can't get MOA out of the cheapest factory hunting ammo they could find.

It can also be how you are shooting, holding a rifle in the rest, etc...  I've also witnessed quite a few guys placing their barrel on different points of a rest for each shot and wondering why they aren't getting decent accuracy.  Not free-floating a barrel can have the same effect as this as pressure on the stock at different points will effect the stock's contact with the barrel.

Hope this helps.

[Casull]

Your comparing apples to oranges a proper sniper rifle is way more expensive than the normal production rifle AND they time and money getting the bedding right 1st time. In my opinion free floating in production rifles is a cost cutting feature as it costs next to nothing to hog out the barrel channel to free float it but to actually bed it properly with a fore tip pressure point takes a little time and a skilled operative. Which one do you think the accountant likes?

I'm fairly certain that the US military can afford to properly outfit its snipers.  So, if they could increase accuracy by adding forend pressure, they would do it.  But, for some strange reason, they free float those barrels.   

[Brithunter]

Your comparing apples to oranges a proper sniper rifle is way more expensive than the normal production rifle AND they time and money getting the bedding right 1st time. In my opinion free floating in production rifles is a cost cutting feature as it costs next to nothing to hog out the barrel channel to free float it but to actually bed it properly with a fore tip pressure point takes a little time and a skilled operative. Which one do you think the accountant likes?

I'm fairly certain that the US military can afford to properly outfit its snipers.  So, if they could increase accuracy by adding forend pressure, they would do it.  But, for some strange reason, they free float those barrels.   

Oh deary me  the way a squaddie even a trained sniper uses and treats his "weapon" is entirely different to the way that you and do or should do. Those ultra expensive sniper rifles also have completely different stocks and bedding than most hunting rifles. How many times do you shoot with a tight sling or even using the sling at all? Target rifles have floated barrels for the same reason using the tight sling puts pressure on the stock and having a floated barrel mitigates this pulling by the sling.

It remains a fact that floating the barrel on a production rifle is cheaper than bedding it properly the rifle in question is a standard production "hunting" rifle in very good condition and despite trying several handloads which are accurate in my other 270 Win chambered rifles they were not in this one. The only ammunition that I have found so far that is accurate through it is the Federal Fusion. I was not aware that Speer Nitrex which has nickled cases and the Federal Fusion is the cheapest hunting  ammunition. I am also not cinvinced for the need for Premium bonded bulelts for Deer stalking all my Deer have dropped dead thank you with using Speer Hot Core, Honady Interlock, RWS H-Mantle and even Sierra pro hunter and Game Kings. Deer are not armour plated after all  .

 I will try some other ammunition and also some more handloads at a later date perhaps with 150 grain bullets as perhaps this particular barrel likes longer bullets or maybe a longer bearing surface ............... Hmmm perhaps I should pull one of the Fusion bullets and see the bearing surface and compare it with other bullets.

[Casull]

It remains a fact that floating the barrel on a production rifle is cheaper than bedding it properly

And exactly why do you find this important?  There are a number of instances wherein the more expensive way of doing something is actually inferior to another, cheaper way.   

[mannyrock]

Brit,

   I totally agree with you that free-floating the barrel is not a panacea, or cure-all, for every inaccurate rifle.

   Now, having said that, it appears that you clearly state two points:

      First, you hate free-floated rifles.

      Second, you hate synthetic stocks.

  OK, fine, . . . so what?  There are probably thousands of free-floated sporting rifles in the world that will outshoot your best bedded rifle. There are probably thousands of synthetic stocked sporting rifles in the world that will outshoot your best bedded walnut stocked rifle.  Each rifle must be taken on its own merits.

Best,

Mannyrock

[Brithunter]

It remains a fact that floating the barrel on a production rifle is cheaper than bedding it properly

And exactly why do you find this important?  There are a number of instances wherein the more expensive way of doing something is actually inferior to another, cheaper way.   

Perhaps because I like and expect quality and workmanship  Obviously your expectations are different. So your suggesting that there is no call for firms such as Griffin & Howe, Hartman Weiss, Chapuis, Holland & Holland etc?

[Casull]

Perhaps because I like and expect quality and workmanship   Obviously your expectations are different.

Presumptious, are we?  I expect results.  The process I get them by is less important to me.  But, obviously your choices run to form over substance.

[mannyrock]

Brit,

   Its obvious that you really love the craftsmanship, the workmanship, that goes into a high end rifle, such as a Griffin & Howe.  Nothing wrong with that.  They are things of beauty.  Works of art.  Worthy of collecting,

   But, that is not the same thing as being a superior rifle. I'm willing to bet that there are alot of new, out of the box Remington 700 ADL rifles, and Savage 110 rifles, costing about $400 each, that will easily outshoot many of the high end rifles, including Griffin & Howe and H&H.   The same can be said of many fairly inexpensive sporting mausers, such as the Interarms Mark X.

   Expensive furniture and rich metal work is certainly nice, but it does not mean a superior rifle.   

Best,

Mannyrock

[Brithunter]

Expensive furniture and rich metal work is certainly nice, but it does not mean a superior rifle.

Not in your eyes maybe  but with such rifles comes qualities such as feel and handling. Many of the modern production rifles have stocks more akin to a club than a rifle stock with pistol grip wrist areas far to thick and bulky  and forestocks designed for sole use from either a bi-pod or bag not for a good feel in the hand. It's nothing new this and may even be a cultural thing as I notice in my BSA's that those aimed squarely at the American market have heavier more clubby stocks ( such as the BSA Monarch ) than those aimed at the UK and European markets. BSA changed slightly again in stocking the CF2 line but they did actually make a Monte Carlo stock for the US market, it's a model that I don't have although, I nearly brought one in 30-06 but purchased the almost new European model 7x57 instead.

The shooting styles here and in the US are certainly different with European and British shooters in the main shooting with a more relaxed head erect posture rather than scrunching down on the stock as advocated by Col Whelan. There are those here who follow the American style,especially in the BR crowd, and even some shooting schools who teach it but I must admit that in the main those I see shoot tend to adopt the more relaxed head posture. Hence the higher scope mounting found on European rifles. If you ever in the position to handle such rifles may I suggest you try them and I do believe you will notice the same thing, especially the slimness of the wrist which I believe is the result of the development of the driven game gun  i.e the classic English SxS shotgun. You don't see one of those with a club for a stock unless it's a poor copy that is.

As for accuracy well when I do my part, which I find harder as I get older  , this is the grouping achieved by a Bespoke built rifle by a husband and wife team from Suffolk England:-


There are actually 3 shots in that witnessed target


And yes it gets used in the field, the Deer is an Indian Muntjac doe and yes it's fully grown, she was shot in Hampshire Southern england.

Sight in target after upgrading the scope to the Schmidt & Bender 6x42 is now wears. 1st shot low and slightly left, I then over adjusted (not used the the cm adjustments on the scope  ) and shot three to make sure they went in the same place before bringing it down the centre last shot was the one just touching the white spot in the centre. Rifle is chambered in 30-30 Winchester and I shoot 125-130 Grain spitzers though it loaded to 2800 fps. You cannot get get a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock anywhere on this rifle  . One day at Bisley Short Sibera three different people fired one shot each from 100 yards at the same target and the resulting three shot group was under 1".

[mannyrock]

 OK Brit, I bow to your opinions.   Since your are 5 hours ahead of me, I would never get the last word anyway. :-)

  Excellent targets.  Beautiful rifle.

Regards,
Mannyrock

[Brithunter]

Hey mannyrock of course you don't have to bow to my opinions after all their mine 

Thank you for the compliment  I am rather fond of the rifle.

If I had commisioned it's building I would never have thought of the 30-30 and it would have most likely been a .257AI  I actually went as far as working out the specs of such a rifle with the gunsmith at Bremmer Arms (the folks who took over P-H then closed them down) but it never got even started as they pulled the plug luckily  before I had parted with any money  . That rifle was to be built upon a Springfield 03 action.

Although the rifle is capable of such fine accuray due to various things such as eyesight changes, varifocals are the pits for using binos and scopes  , plus a loss of fitness. Getting old is not the ball of laughs some claim  I find wringing the accuracy that I used to be capable of is getting more difficult.

[huntswithdogs]

I've been keeping up with this thread to see the different answers to your problem. I've played the bedding and free floating game before...sometimes the results are great...sometimes not so great. Kind of acrap shoot, actually. Now, if I've got one that's having issues, the first thing I do is APPLY pressure to the front of the barrel. This is easily done by slipping a piece of old, cut in strips, credit card under the front edge of the barrel where the original pressure point is/was. If the upwards pressure works and ya don't want an unsightly piece of plastic showing, you can build the point back up with. I have had some rifles that only liked round nose type bullets. Others would shoot flat based bullets but would shoot patterns with boattails. Bullet weights have been problems with other. One 300 I had wold not shoot a 165gr bullet of any type worth a crap but would shoot cloverleafs with 150s or 180s. Sometimes just trying a different powder was all that was needed.

Ain't none of them gonna work out the same no matter what. Rifles are about as fickle as most women(my wife would say the something similar, but use males instead of females, so please don't judge me on this comment).



HWD