Have I observed a basic reloading concept or have I got it wrong?

[briannmilewis]

I have not been at this reloading business for very long, less than 1 year.

I am a cheap SOB by necessity when it comes to reloading, so the relationship between long case life and medium to low pressure loads interests me greatly.

After going over a lot of reloading data in the 22 and 6mm calibers, I think I have observed a basic reloading concept, and I need those more experienced to confirm, reject, and/or correct me.

(1) It seems that most of the time compressed charges of slower burning powders (Roughly 120 or slower relative burn rate), under heavy for caliber weight bullets, more often than not, produce loads that range from medium to low pressure. Is that right?

Also, and these questions may seem really stupid, (I have never been afraid to ask the most obvious stupid questions):

(2) Does a compressed load by definition mean that the case is full, or almost full of powder?

(3) Are there differences between highly compressed and lightly compressed charges, like less compressed = higher pressure, more compressed = lower pressure?

(4) Is the amount of compression solely regulated by bullet seating depth? The deeper the seating = higher the compression?

Ladies and gentlemen, I am at your mercy....

[chutesnreloads]

1)No 2)Full enough that seating the bullet compresses the propellant 3)Yes ,up to a point $0Amount of propellant and seating depth.....Get a Lyman loading manuel and read it.It'll answer all your questions about compressed charges.Avouid loading compressed loads until you're more experienced.

[burntmuch]

Im fairly new to reloading myself, almost 3 years. I read the Lyman 48th. It explains compressed loads . In my mind They werent worth the heart ache. If you wanna make cases last long Stick with the lower charges , & neck size. Thats what Im doing , & Im turning out some fairly accurate & dependable ammo. The target or the animal isnt gonna know the difference between compressed or not ,  Thats my 2 cents worth of knowledge, Im sure some more experinced reloaders will have some good info for ya. Good luck & be safe.  Jay

[sk330lc]

Im fairly new to reloading myself, almost 3 years. I read the Lyman 48th. It explains compressed loads . In my mind They werent worth the heart ache. If you wanna make cases last long Stick with the lower charges , & neck size. Thats what Im doing , & Im turning out some fairly accurate & dependable ammo. The target or the animal isnt gonna know the difference between compressed or not ,  Thats my 2 cents worth of knowledge, Im sure some more experinced reloaders will have some good info for ya. Good luck & be safe.  Jay

Well said!

[briannmilewis]

Cool guys, just what I was looking for.

I'll take any more thoughts no matter...I always save these threads in full for future reference.

Thanks

[Darrell Davis]

Even'n

Nothing says you must use compressed loads, and you may find a load which is NOT compressd which shoots very well in your rifle.

However, there is nothing wrong with a load which happens to be compressd, providing everything else is as it should be.

In fact, I just posted a new thread - in the reloading section - titled RUGER Hawkeye and my Ol"flatbolt.

In that thread, I tell about some loads I just tested this past week in my RUGER Hawkeye 300 win.mag. and I can state that the best load of the series WAS WITHOUT DOUBT, COMPRESSED!!!!!!!!.

You don't get a charge of 83gr. of IMR 7828 into a 300 win.mag. case without it being compressed.

In fact, as I recall, the first group of test loads in the series - 80gr. - was also compressed.

Now according to the book, the 83gr load is about maxed out, but there were no indications that this load was beyond safe pressures.

In your loading, the goal is in many if not most cases is consistancy, as that is normally where the best groups are found.

Depending on your rifle, bullet, powder and desire for end result, the groups may or may not be compressed and providing again that everything is where it should be, as per safety issues, it just ain't no big thing!

Enjoy the loading experience, be safe at the loading bench and at the range and let the compress or not to compress issue resolve itself on a case by case level.

Sometime they will be and sometimes they won't be.

Keep em coming!

CDOC  

[Dave in WV]

A "cheap" man won't use compressed loads as they are inefficient powder wise.  Compressed loads means the powder is at the max useful slow burn rate for a cartridge/bullet weight combination. You may get a bit more velocity or accuracy (varies) using a compressed load but as posted the game won't know the difference. Heavily compressed loads can cause the bullets to back out of the case in time.

[BBF]

Ditto what Dave wrote:
 There are manuals in print or On-line that will give you the pressure generated by a specific load for the test firearm and components. Yours could be different but it is a ball park number.

With the price of powder I would look at the velocity intended with the least bit of powder with the pressure range  below SAAMI


Geez, had to correct myself, makes more sense now.

[Darrell Davis]

All well and good folks,

But in my years of reloading the goal with the exception of reduced load or practice rounds, was the best possible groups the rifle was able to produce.

Now anyone who has reloaded for any length of time, knows that each rifle is a rule unto it's self and may or may not produce the best groups with the cheapest and least powder.

In my recent tests with my RUGER 300 win. mag., I could get a load with a non compressed load with for example IMR 4350, but that load did not proform up to expectations.

The velocities I could live with, but the groups were questionable at best, while on the other hand the tests with IMR 7828 happened to be coimpressed - using a greater volumn of that expensive powder, but the groups and velocity were, without question, far better.

Now considering that consistancy and group size is important in a hunting load/rifle, which would you choose?

Well, this Ol'Coot does as he has always done, compressed or not compressed, I go with the best and most consistant load I can find for my rifle.

If I spend 10 cents more, or even 20 cent more, for that quality and consistancy, so be it as that is one of the reasons I started reloading back in the 60s.

After all, just how many shots am I going to take while hunting?

The cost of gas goes up or down more in one week then the additional cost of using the best and most consistant powder for my rifle.

Keep em coming!

CDOC 

[burntmuch]

I too am looking for the best possible groups, to a degree, But at what cost do I stop searching. To be honest I dont know the answer to that. Each gun & caliber is different. My rem model 7 7mm-08 , I was happy with groups at the inch & a half mark. Would I like tighter groups. Absolutly, but at what cost. Its my hunting rifle. Chances are its not gonna shoot past 200 yards. More than likely 100 yards. Now my remington 700 223. I kept trying different loads till I got to the half inch mark.

[huntswithdogs]

Burnt,
Reloading, to me, is the search for the ultimate load for my hunting or target type rifles. I'd like to know how many times I've finally found it("THE LOAD"), only to go buy another kind of powder or bullet and start over again.


HWD

[wncchester]

Mr. chutesnreloads gives it to you in a nutshell.  And we aren't "cheap", just "frugal"!   

You are thinking and that's good!  Your interpretation of compressed loads and light bullets giveing low pressures is true.  It's NOT a good idea to load that way but for other reasons than you presume.  Powders really need to be in the proper pressure range to burn consistanly and consistancy is necessary for decent accuracy.  We simply cannot reach that "good"  (upper level) pressure range with light bullets and larger quanities of slow powders!    The general rule for "modest" loads is to use smaller quanities of faster (than optimum) powders.

It's really the brass getting work hardened from constantly expanding cases to max chamber size and then squeezing them back down to die size that kills cases early, not high pressures per se.   That's why a properly fitted neck sizer helps cases last longer even if it adds nothing to accuracy.  Most conventional neck dies work the brass far more than is good for it.  I LOVE Lee's collet neck sizers.  They work necks the absolute minumum but they do have a learning curve that seems to stump some folks.    

Believe me, normal pressure loads will give you plenty of case life IF you don't FL size as the die "directions" usually say to do it, that is by jamming cases as far into a sizer as you can get them to go!   What many of us call "partial FL resizing" - a misnomer, IMHO - is much better for case life.  All that's needed is to set the case shoulders back far enough to allow chambering with light bolt handle resistance; that makes it "fully" resized for YOUR rifle!  Sizing past that point only insures your new loads will feed into any rifle every made for your cartridge and that's NOT what you intend to use them for, right?   My cases always fail with neck splits, not body splits NOR body stretching  because I size them to fit my rifle, not someone elses.  And, an occasional neck annealing pretty well prevents neck splits so my SAFE brass life seems to be virtually eternal!

Part of what reduced (from absolute max) loads WILL do for you is to insure your barrel will last much longer!

[burntmuch]

 HWD I would love to be able to spend that kinda time reloading. because Im really enjoying getting better at it. My biggest problem is When Im trying to work up a load. Ill get 3 or 4 different loads loaded up, then it will take me 2 weeks to get to the range. Plus working 60-70 hours a week. I know now Im whinning But its getting better, Im building a shooting bench for out behind the house. So that aspect is getting easier. Now if I could only find primers.

[Dave in WV]

 Here's a couple of tips I posted on the bolt action forum yesterday. I got it off of another site two years ago.

When you shoot a large triangular group, seat the bullet out 1/4 turn of your seating die and shoot again and repeat until the group shrinks, as it will.

When you shoot the most agravating of groups with 2 bullet holes touching and the third off towards "Pluto", seat the bullets in deeper 1/4 turn of the seating die, "even if it's factory ammo" and reshoot the groups until that third bullet comes into the group, as it will.

My son  used the second prctice and it worked.   
 
 
 

[BBF]

When all is said and one it comes down to    O n e   thing only for a huning rifle.

Where is that first shot going to land!!

That could also depend on whether or not that first shot came out of a clean or dirty barrel.

[Darrell Davis]

Morn'in Dave & BBF,

As per seating depth, Rich Jamerson did a good artical about the situation of bullet seating depth having the same effect on barrel viberations as the adjustments made with the "BOSS" on a Browning or Winchester.

I have tried adjusting the seating stem/seating depth for changes in group size, and I do believe Rick may have something there.

The fly in the ointment in this situation is many times, the length of your magizine box, at least when dealing with a bolt action.

As per a clean or dirty barrel, I have for many years, made it a practice to hunt with a "fouled" barrel.

If I am not doing some practice or bench work shortly before hunting, I slip off and shoot at least one fouling shot through my barrel, as yes, it is very likely that first shot will land outside "the group" from a clean barrel.

Once my barrel is fouled, I streach some electrical tape over the OUT SIDE of the muzzle and effectively seal the bore from dirt/mud/twigs etc. for the duration of the season.  Replacing the tape if it is shot off but other wise leaving it in place unless I get really soaked and need to do a deep cleaning, in which case I am back to square one.

This treatment/sealing, has for me at least, never shown any effect on group size, and the tape is gone from the muzzle, long before the bullet ever reaches it.

The rapid build up of air pressure as the bullet moves down the barrel, simply blows the tape off and away before the bullet arrives.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[charles p]

I once hunted with a fellow who reloaded for his 300Win by filling the case to the top of the neck and stuffing in the bullet.  Not so bright.

[Halwg]

I once hunted with a fellow who reloaded for his 300Win by filling the case to the top of the neck and stuffing in the bullet.  Not so bright.

You mean this is NOT how you do it?  I've been wrong for 35 years!   

[huntswithdogs]

An older aquaintance of mine laughs about when he and his brother started "reloading". They took a pair of pliers and pulled tha bullets from a  new 30/30. After eyeballing the level, they filled once fired cases with whatever powder they'd bought til it "looked right", then stuffed a bullet in it til it "looked right" too. It's a wonder they didn't kill themselves or somebody else. After some experimenting, one of them decided to get a book. It about scared the crap out of them!


HWD