Author Topic: 357 Mag occasionally "Keyholes" (Read 1262 times)

Land_Owner · « **on:** October 11, 2009, 03:39:58 AM »

I have observed both 25 yard and 100 yard intermittent keyholes with this Handi shooting 185 grain cast lead over 700X powder at 38 Special +P pressure/velocity.

Whazupwidat?

While I would NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a stabilized 357 Mag round, I would NEVER EVER want to be on the receiving end of a keyholing one. What a WALLOP that must be!

Found this to be a good link on keyholing with SS giving a good explanation:
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,83871.0.html

More field data: There is a NOTICABLY lighter rifle report and recoil difference between the loads I made (above) and Factory 158 gr 357 Mag loads, which are quite a bit "hotter", faster and louder.

I also note on this Board, that many Handi-Rifles are "clover leaf" shooters. My Handi's "clover leafs" so far can be measured across the width of my hand...a hand with which I can palm a basketball! However, I am "sold" on my Handi and it is fun to shoot.

petemi · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2009, 09:32:25 AM »

It sounds as if there is something wrong there. I've never had a keyhole with my Handis and all of them group better at 100 yards than I can hold them. The flyers are known the instant the trigger comes back. My two .357s (Max and Mag) are tack drivers. I'd try to find the problem if I were you. If you haven't done so, check the FAQs.

Pete

Cottonwood · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2009, 09:37:51 AM »

Usually when cast bullets are keyholing, it means that they are under diamiter for the bore.

gendoc · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2009, 09:51:43 AM »

lots of air space in the cartridge using 700x in a rifle..
i have noticed the same thing with plated bullets
for a handgun its different. i had to go thru many types of powders to get my 357 handi
to correctly handle a 125gr bullet. and i then started using this powder for different
grain bullets with excellent results.
you won't find much data in loading manuals for this powder for the 357 , but you can go to alot of reloading forums that speak of this powder for the 357 rifle
the powder i only use in mine for many bullet types and weights is IMR-4227
are you using pistol loading data?, that could be your problem, along with proper
bullet seating.
pete uses factory ammo, thats why he has never experianced this problem.
i think its in your reloading area...
i could be wrong!!!! as you know... no two identicle guns are the same....
i dont think its your handi.....

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2009, 10:04:45 AM »

The Greenhill formula suggests a twist rate of 16.9 for a 180gr bullet measuring .850" long at 1000fps, your .357mag barrel has a twist of 1:18¾" or 1:15½", so it depends on the velocity you're getting, I'd suggest a lighter bullet, or more velocity depending on what velocity you're getting now.

Tim

http://kwk.us/twist.html

Default · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2009, 10:10:23 AM »

Land ,

While researching hotter hand loads for the 444 marlin out of a 1 in 38 twist for a 400+ gr bullet would only stabilize at dangerous levels ( which the researcher wouldnt release that data) other wise under normal operating pressures ( hot but safe) would key hole ... That may be the culprit here , Since these are those 38 spcl. +P loads we had talked about before.. Good luck with it brother.

Just a thought on the problem,

Default

maglvr44 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:54:11 PM »

Watch for pressure signs and crank it up!
Not joking on this part here(i've seen it happen to more than 1 person)..... be sure your paper target has a solid backing, without that a lot of holes will tear and appear to be keyholed.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:26:10 AM »

Quote from: gendoc

lots of air space in the cartridge using 700x in a rifle..

You got that right! No question about it. I was, at first, real worried about that air space in a long pistol cartridge.

Quote

for a handgun its different. i had to go thru many types of powders to get my 357 handi
to correctly handle a 125gr bullet. and i then started using this powder for different
grain bullets with excellent results. the powder i only use in mine for many bullet types and weights is IMR-4227

In this day of significant difficulty getting powder and primers, I was hoping that the 700X and Hodgen Clays I purchased, in large quantities and both readily available (at the time), would be a good start. Perhaps not. I have not tried the Clays. Now my problem is Small Pistol Primers...not available readily and in need!!!

Quote

you won't find much data in loading manuals for this powder for the 357 , but you can go to alot of reloading forums that speak of this powder for the 357 rifle. are you using pistol loading data?, that could be your problem, along with proper bullet seating.

I am using pistol data since I also own and shoot a 2.5" bbl Ruger SP101 in 357 Mag. I wanted the same load that would shoot in both rifle and pistol equally so I didn't get rifle cartridges mixed into the pistol and shoot my hand off. Safety First.

Quote

i think its in your reloading area...i dont think its your handi.....

I would agree. I was given the 185 cast grain bullets. Some were odd-ball 2nds. Most were 1st class. All were hand lubed. I did not check bullet diameters (thanks Montanan) and I set the bullets into the cases to Mfg. Max. Pistol length. Powder charge was for pistol so that the cartridges would shoot in the Ruger SP101 as well as the Handi.

mglvr44: I tacked the paper targets to cardboard.

I will have to check twist rate, other powders, lighter bullets, older whisky, younger women, and faster horses...

Thanks

gendoc · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:54:35 AM »

now first off, you need to do this stuff in order....
this is first... older whisky, younger women... the horses will be alright in the stable!!!!!!!!!

then you can deal with the 357!!!

my gp100 processes the same load as my 357 handi....
the ruger frame is built to take the pressure of the rounds i load for my handi...
don't worry about the 101, thats a strong action..
you got any imr-4227 ??
i'll give ya data for both thats below max and performs excellent with 125 and 158 bullets..
with different charges...
don't know about the 185 tho..

Dee · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2009, 08:55:28 AM »

I don't know what your velocity is, or the lead-tin mixture there is also a possibility of too much velocity for too soft a bullet.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2009, 10:53:22 AM »

Dee: I will chronograph at the next Range session and report...perhaps later this week as I am out of town (Alaska) all next week.

gendoc: I thought the Board might like that list of alternatives...

No IMR 4227 in hand. Just Unique (dang dirty stuff); IMR 4831; Win 748; Clays; and 700X. Most are rifle powders as I am just five years "new" to 45 semiauto pistol/45 revolver and "brand new" to 357 Mag. and 380 Auto.

Dee · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2009, 11:05:53 AM »

You dog. You didn't have to bragg about being in Alaska.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #12 on:** October 12, 2009, 02:47:30 PM »

I get to observe the wildlife, while FISHING off the coast of Kodiak Island...WOO HOO!

mechanic · « **Reply #13 on:** October 12, 2009, 04:57:55 PM »

When you get through playing around in Alaska and are ready for some important stuff again, try some H110 behind that bullet. Hodgdon has data on their site. Load about a grain off max. I'm getting some good repeatable groups with this powder.

Land_Owner · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:11:19 PM »

Thursday morning is older whisky and younger woman day...Friday morning is 357 Handi chronograph (with younger woman day)...Saturday is Air Alaska...hot..cha..cha..cha.....Just found out, Monday the 19th is an Alaskan Holiday...sucks to be me...another day of fishing before Marketing starts on Tuesday and the trip is extended another day to Friday (Oh Yeah!).

gendoc · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:25:09 PM »

sound lak thursday is tha day they goan put water in tha pool!!!

ifin ya survive, then enjoy that 357...on friday wif no hear'n protection

don't ferget tha BC powders...

Land_Owner · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2009, 02:29:20 PM »

You're killin' me gendoc. LOTG LMAO

Land_Owner · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2009, 10:40:55 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

The Greenhill formula suggests a twist rate of 16.9 for a 180gr bullet measuring .850" long at 1000fps, your .357mag barrel has a twist of 1:18¾" or 1:15½", so it depends on the velocity you're getting, I'd suggest a lighter bullet, or more velocity depending on what velocity you're getting now.

Ten shot strings chronograph yesterday averaged 1042 fps for the 185 grain Hard Cast lead and 1494 fps for the 357 Mag Seller and Bellot 158 gr SP. I can measure accuracy across the width of my outstretched hand with these two loads. Not good!

DATA UPDATE: The keyholing 185 gr. bullets are powdered to 38 +P and are loaded in 38 Special cases, not 357 Mag cases. This "anomally" will go away shortly anyway as I am nearly out of these 185 gr. cast bullets.

Now I need to find something (powder/bullet/me) to help make this Handi a tack driver...like everyone elses. I have a bunch of 158 gr. hard cast lead.

gendoc · « **Reply #18 on:** October 16, 2009, 11:31:42 PM »

howya do'n after all that udder xcitement??

well all i can tell you is, all the other guys around here use a different powder
than i do.. icun tellya what i like, heck i thank i already did....
but anaway... wif tha 158pfn it works mity fine.
and its loaded wif rifle data and will work wif your sp-101..

158gr pfn imr-4227 14.5gr col-1.580 1578 fps 34,600 cup starting load
16 gr 1668 42,600 cup max load

i found a load of 15gr works best with the rmr-158 pfn bullet right at 1600 fps

what kinda glass you got on top dat little thang??
do ya know if itsa on the money??

Dee · « **Reply #19 on:** October 17, 2009, 01:52:07 AM »

gendoc, absolutely must be bored out of his mind, or confined to the house with nothing else to do. His spelling and sentence structure is far more complicated than normal English, or hillbilly slang, and no doubt is a lot of work to produce each time he posts.

gendoc · « **Reply #20 on:** October 17, 2009, 07:03:43 AM »

ifin u kant understood my spell'n an uh-wateva ya says bout structure...
i thank u-gots da prollum...

i mite be olt ana wo-out cajun swamp-dweller, but i cun dang shor shoot, cut, ana make far !!!
dats all dat madders ta me anahow...

i ain't bored, i jus cun do tha thangs i needta do prudy quik, lika hunt ana fish ana play on dis puter
cus i can....

Hagen · « **Reply #21 on:** October 18, 2009, 06:26:04 AM »

I have fought this battle before and I even put the .357 barrel away for a year or two before I decided to try to make it work, one more time. 158 grain LEE tumble lube cast bullet from wheel weights loaded as cast sitting on top of 12.8 grains of IMR-4227 powder. Anymore than that and that one hole group starts to get bigger. My keyhole groups were a result of other .357 sized cast bullets and most any powder other than IMR-4227. My starting load with the LEE bullet and IMR-4227 produced a tighter group than I received from any other powder that I had tried with this same bullet prior to IMR-4227. What a great combination! Handi-Rifle, cast bullet from wheel weights with no gas check, minimal powder charge, flat shooting, excellent accuracy. Great survival gun!

Hagen

gendoc · « **Reply #22 on:** October 18, 2009, 10:23:27 AM »

datsa wat i'm talk'n bout !!!