Taming the .444 for the kids.

[mtcur3]

Ok, now that we seem to have solved the issue with my dad’s BC, here's the rest of the story.  I bought 2 BC and 2 Handi rifles in 444 last month. We wanted to move from our $79 black powder in-lines and into the H&Rs for the “primitive weapons” season and Louisiana had a Second Amendment weekend where we didn't have to pay taxes on hunting and shooting supplies. I just figured I support that event as best as I could.

I bought the 444s for my 15 year old son and 16 year old daughter, and once again I loaded them with Hornady LeverEvolution. Needless to say they were not pleased with the recoil.

Am I correct in assuming that, as for the 45/70, the Winchester or Remington factory ammo will pound the shooter less?

Since I ordered the mercury recoil reducer for dad I just added two more for the kids guns.

Just a side note on the kids, they have been killing deer since they were 7 and 8 years old and have killed a couple every year since. They are both shooters and participate in the local High Power and USPSA matches. But .444 LeverEvolution is quite a jump from.223 so you can imagine their surprise for that first shot.

By the way that second BC is for me and I'm happy with it as is.

[paul63]

My 16y/o son has been shooting 50cal muzzleloader for 3 yrs, but said my 444 wasn't that much different in recoil. You'll really like the H&R's. My wife got a  big doe yesterday afternoon with her 44mag H&R. What part of La are you, we're near Ft Polk.

[quickdtoo]

Unfortunately there is no "trapdoor" level for facotry ammo in the .444, it's loaded to levergun equivalent pressures of the 45-70, the good news is Remington offers a 240gr load which also shoots good in the H&R, give it a try, but don't expect a lot less recoil, as you can see in the recoil table below, the 240gr .444 has about the same recoil as 300gr 45-70 trapdoor loads.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[garandsrus]

mtcur3,

You will probably need to hand load for the .444 to get the recoil down to a reasonable level for the kids.  A cast bullet and appropriate powder charge should work great.

John

[quickdtoo]

John's right on, I was gonna post that, but knew you were using factory ammo, so I didn't, but since he did, here's the data. 

Tim

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[dpe.ahoy]

Hope the kids don't remember this on Fathers Day.   Might not get what ya want.  If you start handloading that will take alot of the snort out of 'em and don't forget the Limbsaver recoil pad!   DP

[mtcur3]

Thanks for the info. I would have been better off discovering you all BEFORE all these purchases, but with your help I think I can pull everything together. I priced a couple of H&R 45 LC and found them to be out of the budget for this year. I do hand load as well as cast bullets so this seems like a good solution.

We live and work around Houma and hunt up around Homer.

We’ll report back on how everything goes. I’ll be on vacation for 6 weeks starting next week.

[Couger]

Thanks for the info. I would have been better off discovering you all BEFORE all these purchases, but with your help I think I can pull everything together. I priced a couple of H&R 45 LC and found them to be out of the budget for this year. I do hand load as well as cast bullets so this seems like a good solution.

If you handload and shoot cast bullets, why fore-go the .444?

TrailBoss   powder is often used for "cowboy action" ammo and cast slugs.  Also I recall (I believe this is correct) the .444 case is straight or straight enough to shoot .44M fodder.

Also if you can ever find a 10th edition copy of Handloader Digest, there's a fairly extensive article about how that author turned his .444 Marlin levergun into a do-all survival rifle, with .44mag and special loads as well as shot loads.  Of course he listsed full-house .444 loads for elk and moose, too.

In addition,  Ken Waters who for years wrote his "Pet Loads" column for "Handloader" magazine praised the .444, and wrote about it a couple of times.  Said on the high end the 265 to 280 grain weights were best for big beasts.  But in the South I'd shoot .44Mag level loads with 240grain boolits.

I grew up in Panama City, FL during my teen years - despite originally being from Utah.

[quickdtoo]

Also I recall (I believe this is correct) the .444 case is straight or straight enough to shoot .44M fodder.

I wouldn't recommend it, the .444 has a .471" case head, the .44mag is .457", you would risk a case head rupture due to the difference in chamber size, it may work, but if the case ruptures, the gas released at the breech could be harmful.

Tim

[Couger]

Also I recall (I believe this is correct) the .444 case is straight or straight enough to shoot .44M fodder.

I wouldn't recommend it, the .444 has a .471" case head, the .44mag is .457", you would risk a case head rupture due to the difference in chamber size, it may work, but if the case ruptures, the gas released at the breech could be harmful.

Edited:  I'm not going to be shooting the .444, despite recently owning a Handi-barrel that I never shot .....

But we can agree to disagree Tim.  That article in 10th ed. Handloader's Digest by Robert K. Sherwood was quite compelling and insightful.  He listed four tables of loads he developed for his lever-.444 including .44M and .44Special loads.  Of course Sherwood preferred .444 cases for everything - if possible.

He also listed loads he developed for shooting .451" diam lead balls, sized to .429 before loading.  This causes the balls to be smashed a bit and provides parallel bearing-surface that enables them to be fairly accurate.

But "conventional loads" ...... Lead .44 semi-wadcutter slugs (in the .444 case) over Trailboss should be quite mild and good deer killers.  Might be worthwhile visiting the Hodgdon.com site for load data for Trailboss.   Luck!   

[quickdtoo]

This has been discussed before, I'd let the OP decide for himself is he's willing to take the risk, it's not a very wise thing to do IMO, it may work fine in some firearms, but be disastrous in others.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,155668.msg1098673396.html#msg1098673396

I found this pick a while back. This 44 mag was fired in a 444 marlin no by me though.

[Sourdough]

The problem with downloading is that if there is not enough powder in the case, and an air gape is created next to the primer, it can cause an explosion.  Seen this with .45LCs, person shooting pointed the gun down, then raised it slowly and boom, damaged gun, and injury to the shooter.  Have heard of this happening more than once. 

My own experience, I down loaded some .45 LCs for my Contender.  Some fired just fine, real light loads, but some recoiled rather severely.  Loads were real inconsistent.   

Understand this was one of the reasons Trail Boss was developed.  High Volume, low power, to prevent that sort of a problem.

[quickdtoo]

The GMDR data is well documented in the link I posted, I wouldn't hesitate to use his .444 low velocity cast bullet data in my .444 H&R. 

Tim

[Stone Fence]

The older Lyman manuals show loads with lead gas check bullets and Blue Dot or Unique for about 1550 fps.

[wreckhog]

Shooting .44 Mag seems like a good way to destroy brass, and maybe more,

[Bigeasy]

The .444 wouldn't be my first chioce for kids, especially with factory loads.  Instead of screwing around with mecurury recoil reducers, just get your self a basic reloading set up, and load a 250 grain SWC , or a 240 grn. hollowpoint, to about 1200 fps.  Duplicates a 44 mag out of a hand gun, plenty of power for deer at 100 yards or less, and won't kick the snot out of your kids.  Never tried 44 mag brass in a 444, but I don't think it would be a good idea.  I doubt these break open single shots handle high pressure gas release well.

Larry

[jeepmann1948]

try this :
200 GR. BAR XFB      Hodgdon      H335      .429"      2.550"      53.0      2080      27,800 CUP
Copied from the Hogdon web site,  starting load.
 This should be a real mild load, course when I was 15 I was shooting an original 1917 Enfield 30-06 as issued (including metal butt plate) Get the kids to shooting a mild load then let them shoot the full power ones from a standing position leaning slightly forward with weak side foot ahead of shooting side , this makes the kick a lot less. If that doesn't work send them in for some smaller caliber barrels
Happy trails

[tykempster]

Just use some filler and you won't have to worry about explosions and such.  I get hangfires if I don't use filler with my light 45-70 loads.