Author Topic: BP pistol for hunting (Read 4194 times)

JimFromTN · « **on:** October 13, 2009, 12:15:52 PM »

Are there any BP pistols in production right now that are powerful enough to hunt deer with? I know the TC scout and the traditions buck hunter are good pistols but they are no longer in production. I have heard that TC has made barrels in the past for the contender and encore. Don't know if its true but they don't make them anymore if they did. I am really just loooking for a back up weapon for a followup shot if needed. I have considered the dragoon as well as the ruger old army. I have heard you can load both of them hotter than the standard old army revolvers. I would prefer something like the TC scout or the buck hunter.

woodchukhntr · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2009, 12:54:45 PM »

I was thinking the same thing. Cutting down a 209x45 Contender barrel to 14" or so would give me a great BP pistol.

blhof · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2009, 01:36:17 PM »

I use a Ruger Old Army for back up in B/p season as in Ky it's a legal muzzle loader, it's not as powerful as the single shots, but for a finish shot it'll work. I've used it for rabbits, opossums, and racoons, with excellent results out to 40+yds, but would only use it on a deer at point blank, or out to 20 yds, even loaded heavy, you're dealing with 38 special velocities. The b/p singles come up for auction regularly and the idea of cutting down a Contender B/p barrel is a good idea too.

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:15:53 PM »

Walker, Dragoons, ROA. You can shoot a .62 patched rb out of the center barrel of a LeMat, hitting the deer may be a problem.

rio grande · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »

Quote from: blhof on October 13, 2009, 01:36:17 PM

I use a Ruger Old Army for back up in B/p season as in Ky it's a legal muzzle loader, it's not as powerful as the single shots, but for a finish shot it'll work. I've used it for rabbits, opossums, and racoons, with excellent results out to 40+yds, but would only use it on a deer at point blank, or out to 20 yds, even loaded heavy, you're dealing with 38 special velocities. The b/p singles come up for auction regularly and the idea of cutting down a Contender B/p barrel is a good idea too.

I think the Old Army is plenty powerful enough. Had one once and loaded the heavy conical Lee, I think it was 250 grain, man that bullet would go thru an oak 4 x 4 like it was going thru bar of soap. Tore out the back and buried itself deep in the backstop. Accurate too.
I'm sure a .50 or .54 lyman Plains Pistol (http://www.impactguns.com/store/SS-38210.html) would be very effective on deer too.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2009, 03:56:05 AM »

I have read where you can put as much as 45gr of black powder in the Ruger Old army and as much as 60 gr in the dragoon. The Ruger gets almost 1200fps with 45gr bp and a 147gr round ball which is about the same as a 40 cal s&W. I have also read where you can backbore the cylinder and get around 55gr of bp which pushes it close to a 357mag. I would love a stainless ROA with a backbored cylinder but I image that would probably run around $650 or more which is a little out of my range right now. The Lyman 54 cal Plains pistol sounds interesting. I have read that it can send a 250gr bullet at around 1100 fps which is more powerful than a 45 colt and 45 auto but not quite as powerful as a 44mag.

yooper77 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2009, 04:07:11 AM »

This article below is a great conversion for the Ruger Old Army.

A Fifty- Caliber Percussion Revolver from Clements Custom Guns
http://www.gunblast.com/Cumpston_ClementsFugett.htm

yooper77

longcaribiner · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2009, 04:40:35 AM »

IMHO, the ruger beats the others for quality and accuracy, however in this republik, cap and ball revolvers aren't legal for anything but coyotes and groung hogs. Pa Game regs require a minimum of 50 cal for in-line, and side lock pistols for deer. (Only flint in the late season). I believe 54 cal for elk.

There are a few pistols out there that are legal and good for second shots, but not many that are good out of the box as a primary gun.

It becomes pretty much a custom gun deal.

The lyman pistol is certainly good for the early season, but doesn't come in flint for the late seasson.

The traditions trapper is heavy and clunky, but is one of the few alternatives.

I may have to just break down and build one. I've been thinking of a 58, 10 inch tapered barrel, 1:22 (approx) twist round ball barrel
with single set trigger and a becky flint lock. I figure 58 so the more powder could burn before the ball leaves the muzzle. and larger hole in the quarry.

Chris · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2009, 02:15:09 PM »

Jim...keep your eyes open. Scouts & Buckhunters are always hitting the auction websites like auctionarms & gunbroker. In fact, there are some of these out for bid right now.

...Chris

P.S. You'll be much happier with the Scout.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:07:07 AM »

I very reluctantly took a T/C Scout carbine on trade and that POS was the misfire, hang-fire all time champion.
I've been seriously into muzzleloaders for more than fifty years. I've rebuilt old junkers, built new guns from available parts and even scratch built guns to my own design. I've had highly accurate muzzleloaders and very inaccurate ones, but I have never had so much difficulty in just getting one to go bang. T/C has had some very bad ideas but that Scout was their worst ever. There was good reason it didn't long remain in production.

bigbore442001 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:29:21 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on October 18, 2009, 04:07:07 AM

I very reluctantly took a T/C Scout carbine on trade and that POS was the misfire, hang-fire all time champion.
I've been seriously into muzzleloaders for more than fifty years. I've rebuilt old junkers, built new guns from available parts and even scratch built guns to my own design. I've had highly accurate muzzleloaders and very inaccurate ones, but I have never had so much difficulty in just getting one to go bang. T/C has had some very bad ideas but that Scout was their worst ever. There was good reason it didn't long remain in production.

I have to agree with your assessment of the Scout. I owned a 54 caliber handgun and sold it without a single regret. The reason TC dropped that line was due to the big factory fire they had many years ago. The fire consumed the tooling set up for the Scout line of firearms.

bigbore442001 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:34:20 AM »

You want a good muzzleloading handgun designed for hunting? Look at the Kahnke M82 handgun. I own one with three barrels. It is inherently accurate and well balanced. I have a story on my blog about this particular handgun if you want to read about it. I love the gun but I do wish that my home state( the People's Republic of Massachusetts) would allow it for deer hunting. Unfortunately I have to use it out of state for deer. Ironically, I can shoot small game, varmints and upland birds with it but not deer. Did I tell you that Massachusetts is a bundle of contradiction?

http://bigbore442001.blogspot.com/2009/04/black-powder-handgun-hunting.html

coyotejoe · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2009, 11:26:44 AM »

Well you are not alone there. In Colorado no handgun qualifies as legal for big game in the blackpowder season. You can legally carry anything you want, BP or modern, but you can't use it to take game in the BP season. I guess you could use a BP pistol in the regular firearms seasons if you can prove it meets the required 550 ft.lb. at 50 yards.

powderman · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2009, 04:43:08 PM »

POWER??? Can't remember the name but a confederate General was killed at 400 yds with a colt 1860 Army revolver. Seems powerful enough to me for a deer. POWDERMAN.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2009, 03:40:29 AM »

Well, when you have 100,000 people shooting at 100,000 other people freaky things will happen. I can only assume the ball must have hit him in the eye and he died of infection.

good shot · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2009, 02:39:12 AM »

So many variables when hunting and shooting.
Elmer Keith related how as a youth he knew Civil War cavalry veterans from both sides who told him the round ball would take an enemy out of the fight more surely than the conical that came in the combustible cartridges.
Friend of mine starting in black powder started with a 45 cal. round ball and a standard load, ball entered the deer , bounced off the hide on the other side and bounced around inside tearing things up before coming to a stop. The deer dropped and stayed down.
In a city near here we had a police officer who stopped an unstable person and was shot in the torso at about 5 ft distance with 6 rounds of .357 magnum , survived, hurt a lot. Bullets punched through without expending all their energy.
First deer our group got with a Knight ML and a sabot had a wound channel in a cone shape through the shoulders, about 5 inches at exit.
Deer I have hanging on the took 1 12g slug in the front shoulder at about 15-20 ft, clipped the scapula, broke the leg, next shot through the spine, 3rd shot through the body before it went down, it got up walked about 10 ft . laid down and died.
Tough to lay down a script of what will happen when we use a specific projectile .
Going to be another great deer season anyway with more to learn and share.
Best wishes,

good shot · « **Reply #16 on:** October 31, 2009, 02:42:29 AM »

Powderman: wasn't it Gen. Sedgewick for the Union whose last words were,"why they couldn't hit an elephant at this dis........." ?
Best wishes, Go Hawkeyes!

S.S. · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2009, 10:58:19 AM »

I think a whitworth rifle un-horsed the general

Gatofeo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2009, 07:26:29 PM »

I'm sure it was a rifle that killed Gen. Sedgewick. He had been warned a moment before about Confederate snipers.

Never heard of a Confederate general killed by an 1860 Colt. Interesting. Flukes do happen. Makes he wonder how they determined it was such a specific firearm? An intriguing incident.

The Ruger Old Army is probably the only cap and ball revolver suitable for hunting deer, but even then only at very close range. The Dragoon or Walker may have the ballistics, but the poor sights negate this. Hunting demands precise bullet placement; the rudimentary sights on the Colt design discourage or negate such precision.

The Lyman single-shot pistols are said to be very high quality. I believe they're offered in .50 and .54 caliber, and they'd certainly have better sights than any Colt. Plus, their powder capacity is not limited by the functional needs of a revolver.

Back in the Pleistocene, I had a reproduction Colt 1851 in the inauthentic .44 caliber. Maximum load was about 30 grains of DuPont FFFG black powder, under a .451 ball, as I recall. One day I was plinking at a hard, weathered stump near Tum Tum, Washington (the location has nothing to do with the story, but I just love dat name!).
At one shot, the ball bounced back and flew by me. Examination of the stump showed that half the balls dented the stump and then bounced off. Now, 30 grains is 3/4 of a full charge of most cap and balls, so obvioiusly we're not talking power houses here.
Deer with a cap and ball? Perhaps small deer. At close range. But it seems to me that the responsibility of a clean, quick, humane kill outweighs any personal desire to hunt with something different.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:46:06 AM »

Does anyone have any experience with the Knight HK-94 inline muzzle loader pistol?

NickSS · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2009, 01:29:26 PM »

I have used both an ruger old army and a Piata 1858 Remington replica for small game hunting up to coyote. They work fine even out to 50 yards for this purpose. I have shot numerous grouse with my revolvers during deer season and they tasted good cooked over a camp fire. I would not use one for deer and I believe it would wound more than kill deer. If it was a survival situation I would not hesitate but not for sport hunting. I own both a 50 and 54 caliber great plains pistol by Lyman and I also own a Lyman great plains rifle in 54 caliber. The barrels on the pistols are identical in size and breach plug size as the rifle. So the pistol should stand as much powder as the rifle can. I did try out the 54 caliber pistol with a patched round ball and FFG powder. I found that you got very little extra velocity by adding more powder beyond 60 gr (I went all the way up to 100 gr). The short barrel of the pistol just could not burn the extra powder. Anyway I got nearly 1200 fps with 60 gr Kiks FFFG. Accuracy was good enought to connect with a deer in the chest area at 50 yards. That should be enough to kill a deer.

Fotto · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2009, 02:15:06 PM »

About hunting deer,
Make sure you know your current state regs on hunting w/ a black powder pistol. The details can get you.
The following is from Washington State 2009 Hunting Regs. The bold and underlining are mine

"e. A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled and be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations."

"f. A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be .45 caliber or larger."

Not sure about Ruger, but the only one I've found that the manufacturers recommend 45 grains or more for are the 44 Walker, and they are out because of not being .45 or larger

Casull · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2009, 06:50:45 PM »

Quote

Not sure about Ruger, but the only one I've found that the manufacturers recommend 45 grains or more for are the 44 Walker, and they are out because of not being .45 or larger

Actually they are .45 caliber, they're just called .44's.

osceola · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2009, 11:45:30 AM »

My preferred ROA load is the 200gr Lee conical hollow point, 1 wonder wad sitting on top of 35gr of 3f 777. I have chronographed this load several times, 960fps with a std. deviation of 27fps. Accuracy at 25yds is 4". Power factor of a .44 Spcl. It will pass through 150# whitetails boiler, no problem.

I don't push shots past 25 yds so I know that I'm under 30.

horseman308 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2009, 04:46:50 AM »

What about the Pedersoli Howdah? It's a bit spendy, but it's a 20 gauge double barrel pistol originally designed for shooting tigers. It's probably still a short-range gun, but pretty much any pistol is. Load it with buck-and-ball (if legal) or just big roundballs or conicals. It should take care of any deer in short order.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=129&lang=en

madcratebuilder · « **Reply #25 on:** December 26, 2009, 04:32:26 AM »

Quote from: horseman308 on December 05, 2009, 04:46:50 AM

What about the Pedersoli Howdah? It's a bit spendy, but it's a 20 gauge double barrel pistol originally designed for shooting tigers. It's probably still a short-range gun, but pretty much any pistol is. Load it with buck-and-ball (if legal) or just big roundballs or conicals. It should take care of any deer in short order.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=129&lang=en

The Howdah can take a .62 cal patched rb. I have put as much as 50grs behind one. The major problem is the Howdah does not have a rear sight and it's a smooth bore.

With the proper bullet placement I think a .44 C&B well take small deer with no problem. Can you shoot a two inch group at 40 yards? I think any of these stocked revolvers would be adequate at close range, 40-50 yards or less, particularly the Dragoon with a 45-50 gr charge. The increased sight radius and the increased steadiness with the stock would get the job done I think.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #26 on:** January 03, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »

Well, I did it. I bought a stainless Ruger Old Army off of gunbroker tonight. I was not going to but I got one that is unfired for $425 plus shipping. The price was so good, I could not pass it up. I was going to use that money for something else but I could not help myself. I started looking for spare cylinders and the seem to go for almost half the price of the gun. I guess I will have to start saving my money.

Rebel-1 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:06:49 AM »

If interested you can get an R&D conversion cylinder for it to shoot .45 LC smokeless or BP cartridges.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #28 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:42:14 AM »

I have seen those. They now have them in 45 acp. I would love to have a couple of those also. I found a spare cylinder for $175 plus shipping which is probably aroun $10. So, one spare cylinder at $185, backbore 2 cylinders at $100, 2 conversion cylinders at $500, a holster for $40, and another $75 for powder, bullets, primers and possibly a loader. I just need to spend another $900 and I will be set.

Rebel-1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 04, 2010, 07:35:13 AM »

Well. Ya can't put a price on FUN.