Author Topic: Is this model techn ically correct or not? (Read 2209 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** October 17, 2009, 03:40:29 PM »

We've discussed the skeleton type iron garrison carriages, which this model is supposed to represent, but I can't recall seeing one on this kind of revolving platform. I also noticed that the platform is a lighter-colored alloy than the gun and carriage, so I'm not 100% sure they go together. Still it would be hard to find a model gun on carriage that just happened to fit perfectly on this revolving structure. Sorry no powder can, the pic is from a friend who doesn't have one.

Too bad he polished the heck out of it too, can't tell if it is really old or not.

Whaddya think?

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/BRONZEBRASSCANNONONPIVOT.jpg

RocklockI · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2009, 04:06:31 PM »

No markings ? what barrel is that ? how long is the tube ? I like it

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2009, 04:12:24 PM »

No marks, unvented, certainly a British pattern. I'll get dimensions from him sometime tomorrow, I asked but he didn't send them yet.

Victor3 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2009, 07:42:31 PM »

Is this the one recently offered on ebay?

dan610324 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 17, 2009, 11:40:02 PM »

yes victor it must be, I saved all the photos from ebay, they are identical
here is 5 of them, do you remember the price from ebay ??

John, the difference in color is because the cannon is made from bronze and the plattform is brass
sure its old , its too detailed to not be
its an extremely beautiful piece

Victor3 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2009, 01:35:40 AM »

No, I can't recall. I do remember that the opening price seemed reasonable for such a fancy custom item though.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2009, 02:21:51 AM »

The only thing I have to offer is that the gun doesn't appear to be pointing in the right direction. It should recoil uphill.

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2009, 03:22:37 AM »

Quote

doesn't appear to be pointing in the right direction. It should recoil uphill.

You are correct, the owners who took the photos did"t know the proper direction to point the carriage on the rails.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2009, 03:31:23 AM »

I don't know if your friend's miniature model is based on an historic big brother, (I've never seen the like) but if it did exist, I'd also guess it would be British in origin.
Norm makes a good point; (the model on eBay was displayed the same way) why would the cannon recoil at a downward angle, instead of up the incline where gravity would aid in retarding recoil distance?
The model on ebay sold for $2,500.00, the barrel's length was given as 20-inches, and it weighed 25 lbs.

dominick · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2009, 05:53:04 AM »

There is a somewhat similar model in the Howard K. Brown cannon collection catalogue, page 46. It is listed as " 139-102 French fortification cannon model marked Lormoy 1851, calibre .7", overall 10 3/4 inches, a fine example of a fortress cannon model."

It has an iron skeleton carriage [2 wheel] and center pivot barbette.

Also, here's a link to a photo of a full scale similar to the model above except it's a ft pivot.. http://www.lescanonniers.com/canon7.jpg

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2009, 06:10:03 AM »

Thanks, I looked up the one in the Brown catalog. Reminds me I have some iron cannon models somewhere around here which use a similar system, will see if I can get pic of them before long.

The one in yr photo link does have a lot in common, even the lifting eyes built into the ends of the tracks. Did you notice the older cannon half-buried which forms the actual pivot point?

dominick · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2009, 06:21:54 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on October 18, 2009, 06:10:03 AM

Did you notice the older cannon half-buried which forms the actual pivot point?

No I did't, until you pointed it out. Blends in a bit if you're not looking carefully. Certainly not an original part of the gun.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** October 18, 2009, 06:31:00 AM »

I can't tell where the pivot point is on this one:

KABAR2 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2009, 06:35:40 AM »

It was a common practice at British forts to recycle older cannon in that fashion as pivot points there are many photo's on the

UK fortress site showing these,

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2009, 07:02:48 AM »

Quote

UK fortress site

Maybe Allen meant to include a link, or maybe I didn't hit the right part of that post?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2009, 11:39:24 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on October 18, 2009, 07:02:48 AM

Quote
UK fortress site

Maybe Allen meant to include a link, or maybe I didn't hit the right part of that post?

Sorry, was on the way out the door before & could not locate the links...... Cannonmn, I know you have to already know these, you have posted on their forum.

http://www.palmerstonforts.org.uk/

http://www.palmerstonforts.org.uk/art/gal1.htm

http://www.flickr.com/groups/victorianartillery/pool/

cannonmn · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2009, 11:50:29 AM »

Thanks Allen, I have used their forum but haven't looked elsewhere. I think I'll put the question on their forum now that you've reminded me.

cannonmn · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2009, 03:15:30 PM »

Well it is all MINE now, I bought it. I'm sure it is old, and as Dan mentioned, it is certainly well-made. As you probably know by now, I like nice cannon models and I decided this one needed to be in my collection. The only thing I ddn't like about it was that some idjit polished it. I'm going to look into what it would cost to have it re-patinated, like is done for statues. I probably won't have anything done with it but I'd like to know what's involved.

dan610324 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2009, 05:04:10 PM »

please let the metal to age naturally

KABAR2 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 18, 2009, 05:08:53 PM »

Congratulations, I'm glad to see this go to a good home, it will fit right in with other coastal artillery models you already have.

from reading the auction the scale should be impressive.

Allen <><

Cannoneer · « **Reply #20 on:** October 18, 2009, 08:04:39 PM »

Nice buy! That British pattern barrel was made in differing bore sizes, but it looks like your model may most resemble the 64-pdr 58cwt RML. I don't know how old it is, but it sure looks to be made well; the tube (along with all the other parts) appears to be cast, and then worked to a fine finish.

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** October 19, 2009, 01:38:26 AM »

Thanks again-BoomJ is certainly the "go to" guy for photos of artillery-he has obviously discovered a workable method of filing and retrieving. I was always very good at filing, the retrieving part often escaped me.

I posted my question on exactly what this model represents on the UK Forts Forum:

http://www.palmerstonforts.org.uk/smforum/index.php?topic=161.0

irishman · « **Reply #22 on:** October 19, 2009, 10:24:08 AM »

Quote from: dan610324 on October 18, 2009, 05:04:10 PM

please let the metal to age naturally

Cannonmn,

Have been around lots of polished (copper based) parts for decades. I think that each polishing reduces the RMS finish, which makes for a much better quality patina in the end.

FWIW....That barrel has been driving me Crazy! Very close to what I am currently working on.

Michael

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** October 19, 2009, 11:31:38 AM »

"David" from the UK board provided these images. The item is called the British Cast Iron Traversing Platform. The general design dates from ca. 1824. There must be minor variations on the design, since the model is quite similar to the drawing, but differs somewhat from the surviving example near Montreal. The front wheels at bottom of the Montreal platform look like they are parallel to the two recoil rails (tracks,) which differs from the drawing and the model.

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** October 20, 2009, 05:35:22 AM »

John,

You can get patination chemicals and do this you self.

Here are acoup[le sources from the Cannon internet resource list.

Brass-Bronze Blackening Chemicals

cannonmn · « **Reply #25 on:** October 20, 2009, 05:59:00 AM »

Thanks-I will keep those handy. I always have the best intentions about improving things but Dan has suggested I leave it alone, and the lazy side of me tends to agree. So unless it is really broke, which it isn't I'll probably just let it darken on its own.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #26 on:** October 20, 2009, 07:00:42 AM »

We have got to go green, AlGore says so! Seriously, in this matter I'd do without the chems.; polish it up one last time, to get everything evenly finished, (also make sure you get all the polish residue off the surfaces, I see a lot there now) and then let nature take its course.

I think you already know that the photo of the British gun that I posted shows a conversion, so with the date (1824) that "David" gave you for the first design of the platform, it may well be that your model barrel is suppossed to represent an original smoothbore.

irishman · « **Reply #27 on:** October 25, 2009, 06:04:05 PM »

Quote from: irishman on October 19, 2009, 10:24:08 AM

Quote from: dan610324 on October 18, 2009, 05:04:10 PM
please let the metal to age naturally

Cannonmn,

FWIW....That barrel has been driving me Crazy! Very close to what I am currently working on.

Michael

I was working on 2 similar barrels and Murphy came in my arn and cut off a ring. Look at the barrel he left me...the one that was driving me crazy.

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #28 on:** October 25, 2009, 09:03:59 PM »

How big is the hole in the end of the barrel? That is a great looking barrel.

irishman · « **Reply #29 on:** October 26, 2009, 05:48:53 AM »

Quote from: Ex 49'er on October 25, 2009, 09:03:59 PM

How big is the hole in the end of the barrel? That is a great looking barrel.

The bore is .510. I am considering taking it to .516. The breech is 2 inch and it is 11 inches long.

Michael