Author Topic: KY man shot with ramrod  (Read 2508 times)

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Offline sseib

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KY man shot with ramrod
« on: October 19, 2009, 10:02:17 AM »
Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33348777/ns/travel-news/?gt1=43001

Not hard to imagine now I'll bet.

Steve Seib

Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 10:47:50 AM »
The ramrod was used to load the cannon. According to fort officials, it fell in front of the barrel just as the cannon fired, sending it hurtling through the air.


Uh-huh.  And then the Easter Bunny picked it up and whacked the guy with it. 

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Joseph Lovell

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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 01:55:04 PM »
Something about the story just seems totally wrong.  Perhaps wind blowing a ramrod into the path of a blank charge, sending the ramrod 100 yds...  I side with Paul Ackermann.  Someone messed up, and two people got hurt.  Fortunately, it wasn't a serious injury.

Offline artillerybuff

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 05:24:27 AM »
No doubt whatsoever in my mind they left the rammer in the barrel when it was fired.
This was no accident, it was negligence pure & simple, as are all cannon mishaps I have ever read about.
At least the victim had a good sense of humor...

Offline Double D

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 05:29:30 AM »
It should be pretty simple to figure out just by looking at the powder burnd on the ramrod.

Offline kitchawan kid

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 06:03:00 AM »
I have heard about a few ramrods going down range at some rifle matchs,but this is the first connon mishap I have heard of.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 06:30:21 AM »
K-kid; Unfortunately, this type of cannon accident isn't as rare as I, and others would wish they were. The reason being that many of these incidents happen when a gunner is ramming the charge into the chamber of the bore of a piece that has already been fired, but then hasn't been serviced correctly, so when the powder charge touches a live ember with the rammer still in the bore, the powder ignites, and sends the rammer sailing.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 07:59:22 AM »
K-kid; Unfortunately, this type of cannon accident isn't as rare as I, and others would wish they were. The reason being that many of these incidents happen when a gunner is ramming the charge into the chamber of the bore of a piece that has already been fired, but then hasn't been serviced correctly, so when the powder charge touches a live ember with the rammer still in the bore, the powder ignites, and sends the rammer sailing.

I had almost suggeted that was the case. But then there was no report of anyone else being injured (part or all of a hand taken off).  On something like this I'm fairly sure that it would have been mentioned too.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 08:06:19 AM »
I wonder if the fellow who was ramming the charge burned his fingers.  Lucky to still have them.
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Offline navygunner

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 08:58:25 AM »
Nope!!! Not buying the inadvertant firing explanation both #1 and #3 should have sustained some kind of injury. The "Wayward Wind" story is just that a fairy tale.

NG

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 10:03:00 AM »
 Could a helper have fogotten to remove the ram rod after loading ? Maybe a cute girl walked by etc . ?
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 11:05:35 AM »
If what I suspect is correct - that it didn't discharge due to a poorly serviced bore - it comes down to the jerk on the lanyard.  Before giving that jerk ALWAYS do a quick look around to make sure it is safe.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 11:37:19 AM »
Which jerk on the lanyard are you refering to? :o

Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 12:55:25 PM »
Which jerk on the lanyard are you refering to? :o

(blinks innocently) Why I CLEARLY said "Before giving that jerk ALWAYS do a quick look around to make sure it is safe." So OBVIOUSLY I'm talking about the pull that discharges the piece. HOW could it be taken any other way?  ;)
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline BoomLover

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 07:59:40 PM »
Observing that innocent blink, and thinking..."-it comes down to that jerk on the lanyard." As the occasional "Jerk-or" on the lanyard, it is his (my) responsibility to make sure there are no bits and pieces "blowing in the wind" around in front of that muzzel to be caught up and flung 100 yards (300 feet! The lenght of a football field!) or so...I won't say "Never", but the likelihood of the reason as given is remote, and unreasonable, to say the least! BoomLover
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 07:54:19 AM »
K-kid; Unfortunately, this type of cannon accident isn't as rare as I, and others would wish they were. The reason being that many of these incidents happen when a gunner is ramming the charge into the chamber of the bore of a piece that has already been fired, but then hasn't been serviced correctly, so when the powder charge touches a live ember with the rammer still in the bore, the powder ignites, and sends the rammer sailing.

I had almost suggeted that was the case. But then there was no report of anyone else being injured (part or all of a hand taken off).  On something like this I'm fairly sure that it would have been mentioned too.

It was never my intention in the first post I made on this thread to offer up any opinion as to the real chain of events that led to the rammer being the cause of this man's fractured leg, and his wife's bruised back. The simple truth is that I didn't know then, what exact circumstances led to the rammer flying through the air like a projectile, anymore than I now know. The arms expert from the West point Museum offers an explanation that seems reasonable, but it isn't necessarily factual. The only thing I was trying to do was inform Kitchawan Kid that this type (rammers being fired out of cannons) of muzzleloading artillery accident isn't as uncommon as we would like it to be, and that the most common cause is a smoldering remnant from the previous charge that has been left in the gun's bore, which causes the new charge being rammed in the barrel to ignite.

To me there is something that is now even more interesting than the artillery accident that occurred at this privately funded historical reenactment fort located in New York State. I’ll say here that I’ve never had the opportunity to fire a full size muzzleloading cannon before, so my understanding of safety procedures comes from reading different sources that recommend/require the procedures that should be followed , and the equipment that should be used, and also from observing different groups live firing cannons in person, and on video. There are members here that are obviously of the opinion that if a premature discharge occurs while a man is in the process of seating that charge, that it is a foregone conclusion that the gunner handling the rammer is going to sustain some severe bodily injury. I was of the opinion (perhaps mistakenly) that if certain precautions were taken when loading the cannon, that the odds of walking away from this type of accident ( albeit with a bruised hand, charred gloves, and shaky legs) would be in the gunners favor.
Now, I’m doing this off the top of my head, and I’m not claiming that these required/recommended procedures come from one organization, or group, but these are some of the ML cannon safety steps that I recall reading.

The design of the rammer itself: The rammer should be made out of a solid piece of wood, and the head fashioned so there are no sharp transitions from the head to the shaft, just a smooth surface that decreases in diameter as the head blends into the shaft. The reason for this design should be obvious; if the rammer is sent flying there will be no sharp angles, or edges that will grab at, break, or dismember parts of  the artilleryman’s hand. In theory this rammer head design is supposed to force open the grasp of the gunners hand on the shaft, without causing severe trauma to the hand.

Heavy duty fire retardant welders gloves should be worn by all gunners servicing the gun at the muzzle. These are gauntlet gloves with a piece that extends above the wrist, providing protection to the forearms.

I have even read where some reenacting groups require the gunners servicing the cannon at the muzzle to wear 100% wool jackets, because the wool will (supposedly) only burn so long as a direct flame is in contact with the material, and will extinguish itself when the source of the flame has ceased.

The positioning of the artilleryman’s body, and head in relation to the muzzle of the gun when he is ramming the charge home, so that in case of an accidental discharge, as much of his upper body and face (head) as is possible, will not be subjected to the flame from the muzzle blast.

I’m really anxious to hear what others will have to say about this.


RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline navygunner

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2009, 08:09:48 AM »
The rammer you are referring to is called a Mississippi rammer and yes it is designed to exit smoothly from your hand provided you haven't grasped it with fingers and thumb wrapped around it. Even then I suppose it would force your hand apart. However not all units use that rammer esp some of the mountain howitzer crews. Some of the Rev. war pieces I've seen don't either. It didn't say what piece this was a replica of or the means of ignition, slaplock, friction primer or linstock with match. But the force of the blast thru the vent should have injured #3 unless he wasn't stopping the vent.
   However it is the reponsibility of ALL members of the crew to insure the weapon is Safe to fire and all hands may stop the procedure at any time they feel something is not. Final responsibility lays on the guncaptain but as a "jerker" I'd overide the "captain" on a safety issue. I still feel that proper safety procedureds were not followed on this piece.

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Offline Zulu

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 09:15:33 AM »
Boom J,
I have received training by The Loyal Train of Artillery Chapter of the United States Field Artillery.  The course included instruction on drill, range management, and safety of muzzel loading artillery.
During one of the training sessions we set up scarecrows about 5' in front of my 10 pounder Parrott Rifle.  In seperate firings we dressed the scarecrows in wool shirt, cotton shirt and nylon shirt.  The nylon melted, the cotton burned, and the wool just smoked a little.
We purposely left a ramrod in the barrel and fired with a reduced charge from a safe distance.  The rod exploded into about ten pieces and flew about 50 yards down range.
We also put a hand sized steak in a rubber glove and left it in position over the vent when fired.  It rained hamburger meat on us.
All this was done under strict guidence of a certified instructor and taught us lessons that could not otherwise have been learned without serious mishap.
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Offline navygunner

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 09:20:36 AM »
Thanks Zulu!!!! I've participated with the dummy in front of our parrott but never fired a rammer or the steak filled glove. I know the friction primer flies as high as 10-15 feet up.

NG

Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 10:10:35 AM »
Boom J, I, and I think the rest of us, were going from what was in the article.  I don't think any of us can see how a rammer that falls in front of the muzzle just as the piece is discharged could fly that far.  Not saying that it is impossible, mind, but I can't for the life of me see how. 

If it happend as the charge was being rammed the #1 or #2, whichever one was ramming, likely #1, would have had some injuries. At the very least been taken to a hospital to be checked out.  And that, because it is sensational, would have been in the article. 

I've seen friction primers clip off pencil thick twigs from trees, about 15 feet up.  I've also seen raw chickens set on stakes about 10 feet out in front of the muzzle of a 3 inch rifle.  Pretty much skinned the thing.  And have done the porkchop on the vent - primer blows through it, blast sends it flying and either punches an impressive hole in it while charring it, or makes chopped pork out of it. 

I'm not sure how much good those Mississippi rammers (I learnd them as tulip rammers) would do.  Although not having the kind of squared off bump on the end like a traditional ram might lessen the damage. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 11:19:48 AM »
You don't need to waste a steak to know what comes out of a vent if you ever do nighttime shooting, especially with a slow shutter (I've seen the trails go higher):


Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 01:33:00 PM »
You don't need to waste a steak to know what comes out of a vent if you ever do nighttime shooting, especially with a slow shutter (I've seen the trails go higher):



Heck, just look at the developing vent plume in my avatar photo.


 But at a public demo that piece of meat on the vent makes a HUGE impression. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline surge42

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod - Fort William Henry
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 04:15:21 PM »
Hey,  I was at that location this summer.

I was sitting at the same location where those folks got struck.

We were waiting to board the steam boat.

The blast from the cannon shoots over your head at a height of 40 feet (estimated).

Here's a video of the cannon.  I'm betting this is the one that hurt the people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUnu2dPT8J8&


Offline Double D

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 04:38:30 PM »
I'll say it again, one look at the ramrod  will tell whether it was fired while it was in the bore or when it fell in front of the muzzle.

If it was the gun in the video posted by surge42, I'll put my money on the rod fell in front of the bore. 

Offline surge42

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 04:51:08 PM »
I'll tell ya on thing!

When it went off it scared the hell out of me.

I'm not ashamed to admit it.

I was 150 feet away.

It would have been different if I was prepared for it.

Offline navygunner

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 02:58:43 AM »
Well if it was the gun in the video they need to check thier safety procedures. Normally we require spectators to be 50 ft from the gun. That gun appeared to be loaded prior to his talk which says he was going thru the motions of worming, sponging and ramming (two hands on the rammer is a no-no)with a charge in the barrell. His puncturing of the charge had his upper body and face over the vent. Should have had a full crew doing a shoot. I can see how a rammer might have been left in the barrell. Too easy to distract a lone artilleryman.

ng

Offline RocklockI

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 05:42:38 AM »
No kidding the guy is yacking away while loading by himself ?  Thats not a good idea , I know this to be true for certain .

It almost looked to me like he only went thru the motions of loading it (besides the fake sponging that had no water).
He made a quick motion with his hand into his 'possibles bag' and then pitched the charge int he barrel ..........

I think the thing may have been preloaded , so he could yack and load ...'safley' but a whole crew decked out would be better . I cant believe they'd have spectators standing right there if the guy has live charges anywhere around . gary
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 06:20:21 PM »
It seems the show must go on...... in the one video a single man loads the cannon giving a description of the various tasks a crew would do

in this video there are two people involved and the cannon charge is anemic at best,  the over all condition of the cannon would lead me to suspect if steel sleeved

there may be rust in the bore, depending on age perhaps even some scale rust damage. these guns were most likely produced in the 1970's  and have been

less than well maintained.  It would be interesting to see a inspection report after this is investigated.... hopefully by someone with knowledge of muzzle loading artillery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=268hm-ZvS40&feature=related



Photo borrowed from M&T's post, note the condition of the cannon in the video's and in the photo, very poor maintenance.

One other thing to note in the second video is the 2x2's nailed across the openings to keep children from climbing out.......

these are blackened from muzzle blast, they might also impede the use of a rammer and or removal if someone is distracted.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 07:17:07 PM »
I wonder if they store their poweder in that same shed the guy lit the linstock in? 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

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Offline Sunrise

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Re: KY man shot with ramrod - Fort William Henry
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2009, 06:50:03 AM »
I too am skeptical regarding the "wind blew my ramrod" theory. But ultimately the question of how the ramrod came to be in/near the muzzle is of less concern than the fact that the man and his wife were directly downrange, which surge indicates is not uncommon:

Hey,  I was at that location this summer.

I was sitting at the same location where those folks got struck.

We were waiting to board the steam boat.

The blast from the cannon shoots over your head at a height of 40 feet (estimated).

I don't see any excuse for firing artillery towards an area where people are permitted to wander, approximately 100 yards away.  :o