Author Topic: The most unusual blackpowder cannon ever used by the U.S. (Read 1823 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** October 21, 2009, 05:31:54 PM »

I'm giving a presentation to a local gun club on the Sims-Dudley 2.5 inch Dynamite Gun, a very long-barrelled smoothbore. I have an original dynamite gun projectile to show to them, that's the only hardware, the rest will be these pictures with ad lib dialogue inbetween. Most of these "show and tell" presentations last 5 minutes or less. My projectile is the only one still in existance, that I know of, which is strange since the company must have made over 2000 of them. As far as I know, they made about 20 of the guns. There are still two of them on display in Cuba, where they were used during the Spanish-American War. The breech mechanism is one of the most amazing I've ever seen. No wonder it was reported to have gotten out of order after every few shots. The cartridge case was the same is as used in the one-pounder (heavy) naval rapid-fire guns, and was filled with black powder. It went in the bottom barrel and the projectile went in the top barrel. Maximum range at 35 degrees elevation was 2000 yards. Teddy Roosevelt did not like these guns.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0775.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0777.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0780.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0781.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0782.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0783.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0784.jpg

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2009, 06:01:02 PM »

Cannonmn,

I have seen very little written about these, other than some passages on the Spanish American war, Bannerman mentioning displaying one and Teddy seeing it,
during the return parade for the troops,

By your description it is a two chambered piece where by the lower chamber houses the propulsion charge and transmits the impulse somehow to the upper chamber,
I was under the mistaken impression that these were in effect Pneumatic cannon, or did the black powder charge compress a piston that gave the upper barrel a forced
shot of air?

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2009, 08:30:25 PM »

Allen I'll have to look up the answer, don't know offhand whether there was any piston involved or not, I always thought there was just a bleed hole from lower barrel (chamber) into upper gun barrel.

Here's some history of the use of these things:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.spanamwar.com/dynamite2.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.spanamwar.com/dynamite.htm&usg=__IKbo69-XRwzUFbsDxRNCWisyyfo=&h=537&w=580&sz=52&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=wE8Xhvfy7lzPZM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=134&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddynamite%2Bgun%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS339US339%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:09:32 PM »

I was under the mistaken impression that these were in effect Pneumatic cannon, or did the black powder charge compress a piston that gave the upper barrel a forced shot of air?

That is correct. The Sims-Dudley Dynamite Gun@wikipedia.

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:10:44 PM »

I looked again and the writeup in the Chief of Ordnance report for 1899 says there's simply an orifice between the combustion chamber (lower barrel) and the projectile tube (upper barrel.) The orifice is near the breech. So whatever hot air and powder gas mixture gets through that hole is what propels the projectile. The combustion tube is steel and the projectile tube is high-tensile bronze (75,000 psi tensile strength.)

dan610324 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:11:59 PM »

why is it called a dynamite gun when it actually is propelled by bp ??

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:21:11 PM »

Quote

why is it called a dynamite gun

The whole advantage of these guns was to propel a high-explosive shell ("dynamite") to get more destruction at the target, Prior to that, the only safe projectile filler was black powder, which was not very destructive relative to high explosives which were coming out at that time. It turned out that you could throw a high explosive if you softened the launch G's so it wasn't so much a shock, but a push. The filler in this system was really a nitrocellulose gelatine, not actual dynamite, but "dynamite" was a lot more exciting name for marketing.

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »

The Wiki article says the propulsion charge was smokeless powder so I'll have to check again, but I don't think smokeless will work as a blank with no projectile right in front of it, and I was under the impression that's why this thing used black powder. The CHORD report for 1898 has the first Army report of it, and would also have descriptions, but apparently I am missing that volume. If anyone has an extra, let me know, maybe we can trade.

Victor3 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2009, 10:07:25 PM »

cannonmn,

I have here a copy of Smith's Standard Encyclopedia of Gas, Air and Spring Guns of the World (W.H.B. Smith, 1957). On Pages 64 - 65, he gives quite a bit of info on the Sims-Dudley. Also some stuff about Bannerman's purchase of 11 guns, and where one of them apparantly ended up (King Fuad, of Egypt).

Says here the shells were loaded with 7-9 ounces of smokeless powder.

cannonmn · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2009, 01:17:43 AM »

Quote

shells were loaded with 7-9 ounces of smokeless powder.

Thanks, just read more in the CHORD report and in the fine print they mention the shells were loaded with "Dupont's special smokeless powder no. 3." The black powder was used as an igniter for the smokeless, so technically black powder was used but not as the primary propellant. I don't know how I had that wrong all these years but at least finally I have the story straight now.

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2009, 02:22:43 AM »

Here's one image I forgot to post, the ammo:

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2009, 04:14:08 AM »

This has turned into an interesting thread that has gleaned more info on the Sim-Dudley,

Cannonmn, are there any known examples surviving of this cannon here in the United States?

So far we see that 2 are in Cuba, and one in Egypt, Bannerman had to have sold the rest somewhere....

Individuals? clubs? South America?

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2009, 04:30:27 AM »

A friend of mine has a twisted, rusty piece of a carriage that was pulled out of the Hudson, I'm sure you know where. The nameplate is on it and partly legible. That's all I've ever heard of being in the US as far as the guns. Too bad, I'd love to just go touch one someday. Maybe when US-Cuba relations get to the point where we can travel there more freely I'll go take a peek (and some tradin' stuff!)

KABAR2 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2009, 05:30:15 AM »

Some interesting reading on the these guns, gives info on the testing of one on Long Island. two in Cuba may have been those used by the Cubans themselves against the Spanish, they had three of them.

http://www.autentico.org/oa09313.php

cannonmn · « **Reply #14 on:** October 27, 2009, 04:56:35 PM »

A colleague in CMH just returned from a trip to Cuba, with photos of an original dynamite gun in an old fort there.

http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~milita8/cmh/member/member.cgi/read/7905

Frank46 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 27, 2009, 05:03:59 PM »

Wasn't there a ship called the "volcanic" that had a battery of the dynamight guns and was also used during the spanish american war?. The ship itself had to be pointed at the target rather than swivel the turrets. From what little I remember the guns themselves were in a fixed position hence the ship had to be pointed the shells were to go. Frank

KABAR2 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 27, 2009, 06:08:18 PM »

It was the U.S.S.Vesuvius,

Used Pneumatic Dynamite guns designed by Edmund Zalinski,

http://www.heliograph.com/trmgs/trmgs1/dynamite.shtml

The guns were mounted through the deck almost mortar fashion, the ship had to be aimed at it's target, great for
bombarding the shore but a heck of a way to fight moving ships......

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/v2/vesuvius-iii.htm

KABAR2 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 27, 2009, 06:17:48 PM »

Cannonmn,

Thanks for the Cuban photos, it appears sadly the breech door is missing from it,

I have a feeling that there are no complete or restorable one's left in the world.

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** October 27, 2009, 10:47:31 PM »

Quote

I have a feeling that there are no complete or restorable one's left in the world.

There's another inside a museum in Cuba, and another in a museum in Egypt. I've never seen photos, but the one in Egypt is the one that was on display in Bannerman's store at 501 Broadway, NYC, so it is probably in the same condition as it was there.

Victor3 · « **Reply #19 on:** October 28, 2009, 12:29:28 AM »

W.H.B. Smith believed that the gun that went to King Fuad's arms collection was the one that backed the Rough Riders.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 28, 2009, 03:53:38 AM »

Well I did a search and The Military Museum in Cairo Egypt is a likely canadate for having this cannon,
there are tourist web sites but no officail website with contact info that I can find, it would be interesting
to track this cannon down and see if we can get photo's.

Frank46 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:57:57 PM »

KABAR2, thanks for correcting my very rusty memory. Frank

KABAR2 · « **Reply #22 on:** October 28, 2009, 05:37:37 PM »

Frank,

I have to admit I couldn't remember the name of the ship, I came up empty on Volcano so I tried Pneumatic cannon, which led me to Edmund Zalinski and the rest was easy.

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2009, 05:02:25 PM »

Sims-Dudley 2.5-inch Dynamite Gun Shell

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums48/?action=view&current=09da7b96.pbw

KABAR2 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2009, 07:07:29 PM »

Cannonmn,

Thanks for sharing the photo's of a very rare shell, I have collected artillery shells for over 40 years and

have never run across one, as you have said the only one known.......

Some where in an attic or an old American legion post that's closing down, or an antique shop there is another lurking in a corner,

maybe with luck it will be mine ....... one can hope...........

Victor3 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2009, 11:04:19 PM »

Hmmm... The fins will make the shell spin clockwise (when viewed from the rear).

The doohicky on the end of the fuse appears to be designed to resist clockwise rotation.

From my W.H.B. Smith book...

"Lieutenant Zalinski (while designing shells for large pneumatic guns) took over the ticklish task of developing satisfactory fuses..... He soon found that when the explosive was in the head of the missile, most of its effectiveness was wasted on contact..... So Zalinski moved his charge to the rear of the projectile for improved penetration."

I wonder if the fuse on the Sims-Dudley shell was designed by Zalinski (or borrowed from one of his concepts). The tip appears to be designed to screw itself into the fuse assembly upon contact, possibly to cause a delay in detonation until it had penetrated the target.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2009, 02:25:20 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on October 30, 2009, 11:04:19 PM

I wonder if the fuse on the Sims-Dudley shell was designed by Zalinski (or borrowed from one of his concepts). The tip appears to be designed to screw itself into the fuse assembly upon contact, possibly to cause a delay in detonation until it had penetrated the target.

Sims-Dudley & Zalinski being a competitors I doubt shared notes, although both styles of shells share a basic design.

from the looks of the drawing it is more of a point detonating fuse, no real delay, and the small amount it could travel inwards would do little to act as a delay.

More likely it was the inventors fanciful notion that it would do something aerodynamically to increase spin.

cannonmn · « **Reply #27 on:** October 31, 2009, 04:37:48 AM »

Mebbe a bigger peekshure would help:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums47/IMG_0777a.jpg

Looks to me like the wind rotating the impeller cranks the whole inner fuze assembly (that surrounded by a large spring) forward, moved with the assistance of the spring's force. That allows centrifugal force to move the small ball bearing outward. The inner circle is probably a big ball bearing. Then, when .....

Anyway you can probably figure it out from there.

When I was working for da gummint in the weapons biz, things like fuzes were generically called "Safe and Arm Devices." Their two functions are just those, keep everything safe until the projectile or missile was far enough away that a detonation could not hurt the weapon crew. Then Arm the projectile so it could function as designed when it hit the target. The impeller having to turn so many times before anything can happen is a common type of older safety device; this may have been one of the first of that type. It became a very popular form of arming aerial bombs during WWII, particularly in tail-mounted fuzes.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #28 on:** October 31, 2009, 04:56:02 AM »

I stand corrected...... I should have looked closer at the drawing and seen the threaded shaft,

the great granddaddy of drop bomb safety's before the Aeroplane was ever off the ground!

So not only do you have a rare shell, but a rare fusing system that would later become common place

in another application.