Author Topic: Question on Legal issue with frames?? (Read 2686 times)

Smiley · « **on:** October 13, 2003, 09:01:48 AM »

I know this has probably been ask and discussed but i missed it, so.

A frame TC that starts out a rifle can be change to different barrels and calibers. Can it also leagally be used with a pistol barrel?

I just got a Encore 209 50 and noticed on the box that the frame can't be fitted with any rifled barrel less than 16 inches in length.

Does this mean you should only by pistols and those frames can go either way??

Help would be appreciated.. I see on this box that Federal law. My first Encore doesn't have that warning?? Thanks <

Ladobe · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2003, 03:05:45 PM »

I believe that Federal Law, as it pertains to TC Contenders and Encores, dictates that with a butt stock mounted on the frame, no barrel shorter than 16" is legal as a rifle/carbine or 18" for shotgun. Both frames will readily switch with shorter pistol barrels, but I'd check your state regs just to be on the safe side. I know TC's have become a problem in California, and probably some of the northeastern states (like MA, NY, etc.).

HTH,

Ladobe :bye:

helobill · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2003, 04:24:48 PM »

Well, you're right this has been asked and answered, but it's good enough to be brought up from time to time. I even went to the trouble of e-mailing the BATF to get their read on it. They wrote me back saying they don't answer technical questions via e-mail but told me to call their technology division. I did. Basically what they said was, a pistol that starts as a pistol can be fitted with a barrel longer than 16 inches and a shoulder stock without incurring any penalty (and back again is no problem either). However a rifle cannot be "made" into a pistol (by shortening the barrel and changing the grip) without notification to the BATF that you intend to make a short barreled rifle and paying a fee ($200 if I remember correctly). Okay here's the bottom line. The BATF can't tell you how your frame was manufactured. They do not have a list that says which is which. TC can tell you if you really want to know. So if the BATF has a reason to come look at your guns and suspects for some reason that you might have an illegally made pistol, they could confiscate it and ask T/C to supply them the information and then prosecute you for not paying the fee and illegally making a short barreled rifle. Because technically that's what you made since it started life as a rifle it's always a rifle and the only law is you can't make a short barreled rifle (barrel under 16"). Now T/C did win a Supreme Court lawsuit about their "Carbine Kits". BATF contended that because the kit included a frame, buttstock and a barrel under 16" (among other things) that meant it was a short barreled rifle. The Supreme Court ruled that just because you own parts that can be assembled that way doesn't mean it qualifies as a short barreled rifle as long as there is another logical way to assemble them. However if you own a buttstock and the only barrels you own are under 16" you ARE technically the owner of a short barreled rifle and again if BATF had a reason to come inspect your house (search warrant) you'd be in trouble.
All that said, I'm not worried and I'm not going to the trouble to find out what my frames were manufactured as. I'm just going to make sure I don't give the BATF a reason to come calling.
And like Ladobe said, check with your state because this is only the BATF rules.
Bill

X-Ring · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2003, 12:56:54 AM »

After reading Helobill's post I got to thinking. If your frame comes from the factory as a pistol, why can't you add a buttstock with a short barrel? Its still registered as a pistol. You can buy buttstock attachments for revolvers.

Personally, I think rules are written loosely to be interpreted differently by each individul reading them, or to suit the situation...

PA-Joe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2003, 01:38:10 AM »

In most states a pistol has to have a barrel less than 16 inches. Longer than that it is considered a rifle. Rifles cannot have a barrel less than 16 inches. Less than that and it is called a pistol. If you are carrying less than 16 inches you better have a state pistol permit and no shoulder stock.

C A Plater · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2003, 03:46:35 AM »

As far as the federal bureaucrats are concerned, Encores and Contenders are manufactured as pistol frames. I have an Encore in rifle configuration but when I bought it was sold as a pistol even though it had a rifle butstock. If I were to change the butstock for a pistol grip then change to a short barrel, that is not illegal federally. If I put a short barrel on with the rifle stock, then I have created a short barreled rifle and the feds are not pleased. The ATF argued that because you might make a short barreled rifle out of a carbine kit, that was a crime and the Supremes said it was not a crime until someome actually did make one. States have there own nonsense on the subject but the feds will not arrest anyone for changing the stock to a pistol grip. Just do it before you put on a short barrel.

securitysix · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2003, 09:44:37 AM »

Quote from: X-Ring

After reading Helobill's post I got to thinking. If your frame comes from the factory as a pistol, why can't you add a buttstock with a short barrel? Its still registered as a pistol. You can buy buttstock attachments for revolvers.

Personally, I think rules are written loosely to be interpreted differently by each individul reading them, or to suit the situation...

If you add a buttstock while the short barrel (less than 16") is still attached, you have just manufactured a short barrelled rifle. SBRs are controlled under the NFA and must be registered under the NFA of '34 on one of the silly forms (Form 4 I think, but it might be Form 3) after paying the $200 tax.

If you fail to pay the tax, the FBI will fatally shoot your son, wife, and dog and injure your next door neighbor, the BATF will stomp your cat to death in front of your wife before the FBI shoots her, then, the BATF, FBI, and National Guard (who will be under the command of Wesley Clark) will burn your house down and kill 86 people in the process.

In order for it to be a legal rifle without dealing with the BATmen, the barrel has to be at least 16" and the overall length of the weapon must be at least 26". AFAIK, there is no federal regulation regarding the MAXIMUM barrel length for a pistol, so a 21" carbine barrel with a rifle scope and a pistol grip should be OK if your state allows it. Of course, I could be wrong here, in which case you would have to register your frame as "Any Other Weapon" (AOW) before you could legally do this. You might consider calling the BATmen and checking on this, though.

helobill · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2003, 05:01:04 PM »

C A Plater,
Sorry but I've got to disagree after talking to BATF and T/C. Not all frames are manufactured as pistols. There are all sorts of rules that govern the manufature of firearms, and how T/C originally manufactured the frame is what matters. When I talked to them, I was told some are pistols some are rifles, and only they know. If you bought it new, then how it came from the factory is how it was manufatured. I've never bothered to find out how mine were manufactured. According to BATF folks I talked to, they'd only start looking if they had a reason.

Security Six got it almost verbatim off the BATF web site...even the 86 people! :grin:

Bill

C A Plater · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2003, 03:27:04 AM »

What! :shock: You mean that fine ATF field agent that was busting the dealer chops may have given me incorrect information! :oops:
Shirley you jest! :-)

I'm not suprised there is a different interpretation from the one the ATF blow hard was spouting. As this was a while ago and for a long time, there were only Contender pistols made with separate carbine conversion kits. The guys info was undoubtedly dated at best.

Don't be sorry, you are correct until the next administrator decides otherwise. The point was, no one gets busted for making the carbine into a pistol without the feds finding a lot more stuff to hang you with. Well not yet anyway.

X-Ring · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2003, 06:20:31 AM »

C A Plater Read second paragraph of my post above.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2003, 06:52:07 AM »

So what happens when you buy a NEW frame only? If the BATF is the only one that knows how do we know if it is a rifle frame or pistol frame? (Physically there is no difference) The only thing I can figure is that TC may have to submit a series of SN to be designated as rifle or pistol. I always understood that it was determined by how it was originally registered. In that case one would want to register any you buy in any configuration as a "pistol" to be safe. I would imagine the courts would have a heyday with the rifle/pistol designation of the frame.

Smiley · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2003, 08:36:11 AM »

Ok been checking this out and found that. TC sells them as either a rifle or pistol. If sold as a pistol you can make a rifle or carbine. If sold as a rifle you should not put a pistol grip or barrel on it.. You need to register it for it to be legal, Federal, doesn't matter about state, Federal supersedies(spelling). If you have a frame you can call TC and they can tell you how it was sold. The frames they sell to dealers are the same , either with butt stock, Rifle, or Pistol grip, pistol.. Clear as mud..<

grizz · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2003, 01:07:37 PM »

I was just discussing this with my local gunshop and here is what the guy behind the counter told me.. He said it DOESNT matter how he recevied the gun from T/C.. He said it all depends on what you want it to be at the time you buy it.. For instance if all he has on hand is a encore rifle and you want a pistol he can just take off the buttstock replace it with a pistol grip and write the paperwork for a pistol and go through the normal hoops to buy a pistol... As long as its registered as a pistol you are good to go.. Then you can always change it to a rifle.. He did also state that you cant buy it as a rifle and change it to a pistol unless you have it reregisterd as a handgun... I assume he is correct after all he is a dealer and should know for sure.. Least that is here in PA other states may vary..

grizz

Smiley · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2003, 01:13:52 PM »

Yes, but when TC ships it is is one or the other, they regester it, not your local shop...all he does is record it in his book and call for a check on you, that doesn't regester it.. you have to pay the tax to change a rifle to a pistol...<

grizz · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2003, 01:33:56 PM »

Intresting if this infact true then I would imagine if he (the dealer) does what he says then you would have a illeagle pistol without even knowing about it.. I would imagine as long as you have paper work stating you bought it as a handgun from a dealer then you may be safe.. Who the hell knows this has got to be the most screwed up law I have ever heard of..

grizz

X-Ring · « **Reply #15 on:** October 31, 2003, 01:40:51 AM »

Grizz, Here in Pennsylvania you fill out a white form (SP-4 113), which a copy of goes to the Pa. State police, for a hand gun. You also fill out a yellow form, ATF Form 4473, which stays with the dealer. If you register your T/C as a hand gun the State Police form should be able to bail you out of any hand gun rifle issues. But again Federal superceeds state, So again I state,,,,,,,The laws are written to be intrepreted differently by each individual reading them......

SingleShotShorty · « **Reply #16 on:** October 31, 2003, 03:03:00 AM »

When I bought my Encore 209X50 ML the dealer told me that he had to do the normal NICS check because the Encore could be converted to a handgun.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #17 on:** October 31, 2003, 03:44:11 AM »

I'm waiting for the day this one goes to court (the specific designation of the frame issue, I realise the court has already dealt with the pistol/carbine issue). I believe the court will give the ATF a good kick in the a$$ on this issue. The basic premiss of the encore is a component gun. Whether you buy it in pistol or rifle configuration it was "designed " to be interchangeable. To dictate that a frame has to be designated as one or the other opposes the basic principle of the gun and is rediculous an a potential nightmare for both an owner and the ATF.

X-Ring · « **Reply #18 on:** October 31, 2003, 04:50:58 AM »

Before any encore leaves my shop I have the proud new owner fill out the SP-4 113 form,which is for hand gunshere in Pa., weather the gun is rifle, pistol or black powder configuration. I do this to cover myself, because I do not know what the gun will be like within hours of the sale. He/She may have an Ebay purchase sitting at home to convert it.
Even though black powder does not have to be registered and I know other dealers that refuse to register them, I would rather spend 10 years watching my kids grow up than cement walls close in.

grizz · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2003, 06:43:39 AM »

X-Ring,

I really dont like this at all seems to me that a customer can wind up in a mess easy.. If i bought a new Encore rifle from you and you had me fill out the SP-4 113 Form then technicaly im buying a pistol and NOT a rifle as far as paper work between you and I are concerned.. So now I leave your shop im the proud new owner of a Encore rifle.. But since I have paperwork stating its a registered to me as a handgun I should then be allowed to change it to a pistol at any giving time I want.. But apperntly this isnt leagle unless I pay the fee to have it registerd by the ATF as a handgun since it wasnt registered by T/C as a handgun?

Now matter how you look at this bogus law its crooked and is way to easy misinterpret it.

grizz

Geno · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2003, 08:59:38 AM »

It seems the deeper you look into this, the deeper yet it becomes. In a Muzzle loader configuration you wouldn't think anything would be required. But as a carbine it needs the necessary phone calls and paperwork to satisfy the govt boys. To further make this interesting, here in Minnesota, I need to have a Handgun Purchase Permit in order to purchase this in the form of a pistol.

X-Ring · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2003, 01:02:39 PM »

Grizz, I don't know if what I'm doing is right or wrong, but I feel this is a convenince for the gun owner as well because now according to the Pa. State police this frame can be a legal pistol as well as a rifle.

As another thought, you sell your encore rifle to a co-worker, etc..which here in Pa. does not have to be transfered. He changes it to a pistol, if something should happen, hunting accident,traffic stop,etc. this serial number is coming back with your name attached to it. They are coming to see you to find out why you have an unregistered hand gun. I would worry more about the Game Commission or State Troopers than the ATF.

grizz · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2003, 03:35:38 PM »

X-Ring,

Heck I couldnt tell ya if its right or wrong either.. After thinking about it its prolly the best way to do it.. If it ever came down to it I think they really wouldnt care what it was as long as you have paper work saying you bought it as a handgun no matter if it is in a rifle configuration when you bought it.. They wouldnt waste time to find out unless you did something really wrong.. I think they should sell them all as handguns that way it would eliminate the problem.. If they want to sell it as a rifle it should be made in way that it cant be changed into a pistol but still be able to change rifle bbls.. Keep the pistol as it is since there is no law stating it cant be changed into a rifle.. Only problem I can see is the exsiting ones that are out there now.. On another note just get rid of the dumb law to begin with..

grizz

helobill · « **Reply #23 on:** November 01, 2003, 04:51:16 PM »

Grizz, you hit it on the head. "They wouldnt waste time to find out unless you did something really wrong". As for some of the other posts, the BATF does NOT know how your serial number was made, only TC knows. I think the reason they register some as rifles and some as pistols has to do with what taxes they pay (to "make" a short barreled rifle you have to pay $200 tax to BATF, so I'm guessing there is some tax TC has to pay based on the number of handguns produced). I asked BATF the question about how you register the frame and they really didn't care unless you tried to register a pistol as a rifle (different waiting times and criteria for ownership). And filling out the form doesn't "make" the frame anything, it depends on how it started life. But back to the first quote, BATF wouldn't waste time trying to find out unless you did something to make them start looking in the first place.
Bill

patrick_sween · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2003, 11:26:20 AM »

I currently own one frame, one 21" barrel, and three 10" barrels, along with a pistol grip and a shoulder stock. I know for a fact that the gun left T/C as a rifle (I bought it new as a Contender Carbine) and I have been adding to my setup for the last 10 years.

First, am I in trouble having the pistol barrels and grips at all? Second, is there any way to make it legal as a pistol without the $200 tax? I had been considering selling the stock and 21" barrel and trading for another pistol barrel since I can't remember the last time I used it as a rifle. In that case, I would have a pistol in my possession with no immediate possibility to convert to a rifle, but the serial number recorded at T/C would list it as a rifle. I realize the odds of ever being checked are pretty slim, but I'd really rather not risk it. Any ideas on what I should be looking to do? Thanks!

Patrick

alchemist · « **Reply #25 on:** November 09, 2003, 04:19:46 AM »

New member here who loves contenders (hard not to i guess) Hmmm great discussion..... i always thought that when T/C had put in their old catalogues that "the supreme court ruled that carbine kits are legal," ment it could go either way. In NY as in PA a handgun has to be registered so i have dutifullly done that, but have violated federal law... lol whata joke!!!!
Kinda like the assault weapon law..... if a receiver made prior to 9/94 was manufactured in non assault weapon (as they define it) configuration, it can never be legally used to creat an assault weapon with thier fdefinition of the nasty charteristics. So that UZI or Colt AR receiver manufatured prior to 9/94 and sat in a drawer or on a shelf unassembled, can NEVER be made into preban configuarytion it will always be considered post ban. Gov agency BS that proves all along why we dispise big government. They only serve their own self importance twisted needs

OLDMAN · « **Reply #26 on:** November 09, 2003, 08:29:35 AM »

What if I buy just the frame. How am I going to know how it left the factory, rifle or pistol? If I buy just a frame from someone like Ed,s how am I going to know how it left the factory? Is it illegal to buy just a frame?

helobill · « **Reply #27 on:** November 12, 2003, 06:17:49 PM »

Oldman,
You can buy the frame (I've bought a bunch over the last 5 years) and register it how you intend to use it. If you really want to know how it left the factory, call them and ask, they can tell you. The ATF will only go to the trouble to find out if they have a reason to come looking at you and can't find anything else to get you on.
Bill

Bushwack · « **Reply #28 on:** November 15, 2003, 02:43:14 PM »

I Just bought one from Ed. It's in the factory box which only says it's a Frame, W/Composite Grip & Frnd, Stainless Steel. This is the label with the serial# on the end of the box. It also has an item#, in this case 1842 which is a pistol frame in SS w/Composite grip & Frnd. So my serial# has been linked by the factory to that item#, making it a pistol. If you call Ed & order a pistol frame that is exactly what he will send to your FFL. It is legal to by just the frame & in my case I bought just that, the frame. I told Ed I wasn't interested in the factory grip & forend & he removed them & adjusted the price. I agree with helobill, ATF has bigger fish to fry & isn't going to waste their time stirring that pot unless they have a real good reason.

Good shooting
Bushwack

SLAVAGE · « **Reply #29 on:** November 21, 2003, 07:29:24 PM »

hmm ok well i can add to this a little
im from pa all so i live in pgh an i just got a encore fram no barrel at all but it was in the hand gun form in other words a pistol grip so i had to regester it as a hang gun the paperwork shows it is a hang gun heres the best part the top of the box says an i quote ""the worlds most versatile hunting hand gun "" so i went an got a sportsmean permite "" ability to hunt in pa with a hand gun"" an im going to go get a conceald carry permite after deer season
i all so work in a sporting good store but we dont sell contenders or encores but i asked a few cops 2 being state troopers an 1 being part of the fire arm task force an even a game commision officer
they all told me in ther eyes even though i have a stock on a 12 or 15 inch contender barrel as long as i have proof on me that i is regestered as a hang gun an i have a permite to carry a hang gun ther is no problem
they were all more than 90% sure of this but like all of u have said fed over sees state but then again if u are just plinken or hunting an they dont have a reasion to bother you other than asking about your"" rife"" as they most likely will call it i would just say im sorry sir but actualy it is a hang gun i have the white pa state requiered paper that makes it regestered as a hang gun an all so a sportsman permit to use a hand gun to hunt with an every thing should go over pritty easly as long as the ser #ers are the same thats one of the reasions i wanted to have it reg. as a hand gun an i looked thers nothing mentioned about how long a ""hand gun"" barrel can be only 16 for a rifle an 18 for a shot gun

but if any of you are a ffl dealer just call the atf localy an ask them an if they say its ok ask them if thers a way you can get a document stating that personaly ide go give an hour of my time an say $10 for a copy of this paper that way it will cause less time argueing with some one in the field