The 170 grain gas check and the 3030!

[Dee]

As some of you know, I have been shooting the same Model 94 Winchester 3030 for 51 years, but what I haven't done in a while is load any. See, when I load ammo, I really load ammo, and I usually load enough to last over a year. Well it has been a little longer, about two in fact, and no, I haven't been shooting factory, I just loaded a bunch the last time.
Well today, I went out to my reloading shack, and it was a mess, so I started sortin brass, and such, and came across my Lyman double cavity mold for the 170 round nose gas check. I think I am gonna melt some wheel weights and mold some up. You can load the 170 gas check to 2400fps, just like the 150 jacketed bullets without leading, and boy do they hit hard, and penetrate.
I don't shoot anything out of my 3030 but my loads, and the same for my Model 92 Winchester clone in 357 mag. I have a 158 grain SWC mold for it that I traded from an ole police buddy of mine in 1976. He used to loan it to Troopers and they would mold thousands of rounds with it before bringing it back, and so did he. I have also molded thousands with the double cavity mold, and it shows no sign of wearing out.
I read on another thread yesterday about their cat sneeze loads in rifles and had to chuckle. I have been loadin for over 35 years, and squirrel huntin with'em. I used to do the same thing with my 3030.

[ButlerFord45]

Dee, ya know I've noticed over the past many months that you are a set-in-your-ways, opinionated old coot.  I like that, reminds me of another.  I was continually poo-pooed for squirrel hunting with a 30-06.  Little did they know!
Anyway, thanks for a pleasant memory.

[Dee]

Dee, ya know I've noticed over the past many months that you are a set-in-your-ways, opinionated old coot.  I like that, reminds me of another.  I was continually poo-pooed for squirrel hunting with a 30-06.  Little did they know!
Anyway, thanks for a pleasant memory.

Opinionated, set in my ways, old coot? ME? Yeah, I guess so. But I do know what works, and what don't. My ole grandpa used tell me it was because he had: "Been around the tub more times lookin for the handle" than the youngsters. Ya reckon?

[Dezynco]

Well I ain't exactly a young whipper-snapper, but I'll never be to old to learn something!  LOL!

I'm 41 years old, been working as a graphic designer since I was 19.  Owned my own business for about 15 years, and decided to go back to college to get a master's degree and a license to teach school!  I'm older than some of the professors!

My Pop has been reloading and casting bullets as far back as I can remember.  He used to pay me a penny apiece to grease bullets for him!  Saved up enough money to buy a $32 pellet rifle one time.  Wow that was 3,200 bullets!  For a little squirt like me, that seemed like a lot!  Now I can shoot up 3,200 bullets in no time at all.

My kids love to come over to the shop and "help" me load bullets, they almost fight over "who gets to pull the handle this time"!  My two girls really love to help, my son likes to size bullets and like to shoot.  My 9 year old daughter is a "knockout in a dress, but can shoot a fly off a fence post at 100 paces", even looks like "Ellie Mae Clampton" a little.

Sorry for getting off -topic, just having a little fun.

[454Puma]

Dee
 I'm new to the 30-30, got two, last one was a '66 Win 94. It's goin to be a dedecated cast rifle. Shoots the Lee cast 150 gr  pretty good but I went out and got the 170 gr Lee mold!  It likes these better, I get 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards open sites! I don't run as fast as you though -1989fps over 28 gr H4895!  This is only about 100 fps  slower then factory 170 WW's so I think it will be more then enough for yotes and deer! Cast out of WW they come out at about 177 gr! 

[Dee]

It's all in what you like, and what works for ya. I use to switch around a lot, but as I got older, I realized I was chasin my tail. Get a rifle, and a round that you know and stay with it. You will suffer less frustration and hit more of what you shoot at, and will spend less money.
I don't even glance at gun rags any more when at the store, and don't worry about the latest in rifles and rounds.
I have a tricked out M4 with a nice trigger job, but it sits mostly in the safe now. I carry back and forth my Model 94 3030, and my Model 92 in 357 mag. They have identical sights, and are zeroed the same way. If I carry the 3030, I know I am good to about 280 yards. If it's the 357 mag, about 160 yards. Not much to remember.

[jlchucker]

I have nothing but admiration for opinionated old coots who shoot 30-30's, in particular, and older style leverguns in general.

[ButlerFord45]

Dee what powder are you using for those cast 170's

[Dee]

Dee what powder are you using for those cast 170's

Butler, I use IMR3031 some, but I like 748 better, as it feeds easier thru the powder drop, and you get more velocity.
I will give you the load I use, and understand I in no way endorse this as a safe load, but it is taken directly out of the Lyman Reloading Manuel the 46th Edition. 35 grains of 748 powder, under a 170 grain gas checked cast bullet for 2270 feet per second.
I popped off in an earlier post that you could get to 2400fps, but I had glanced at the data on the same page for a 169 grain cast gas checked bullet which called for 37.3 grains of 748 powder at 2355 fps.
Now why there is a 2.3 grain difference in the same powder for two bullets weighing 1 grain difference seems odd, but I have always trusted Lyman's manuals and have held on to this one for years. It was printed long before the lawsuits started showing up, and everyone started actually loading down "below" safe levels.

[streak]

Dee,
In your reloading of the 30-30 rounds do you find it necessary to do full length resizing of previous fired rounds or just neck sizing for your lever action? Also how often do you have do any case trimming
on your brass that have already been used before? I am getting ready to start some reloading for my lever action 30-30 as I have quite a bit of once fired brass shot originally in this rifle just would like to see if neck sizing would be sufficient?

[Dee]

streak, I have in the past neck sized only for rifles set up for extreme accuracy, and in the old days before political correctness came into vogue for rifles set up for counter sniper. I have never however, did so for the 3030. I full length resize every time, and run ALL brass thru a length check guage, and trim only when necessary. I deburr the INSIDE of the case mouth EVERY time, and I seat the bullet, and THEN crimp in a seperate operation, that way I get no shoulder bulge which is easy to get on the 3030, and can make chambering difficult.

[38-44]

Hi Dee
I also own a 94 carbine 30/30 perfect bore and not able to shoot cast bullet without leading at the muzzle after 5 shots
the bore is 309 I have tried 308,309,310 sizing and BHN 15 to 30
My mold is Lyman 311041 GC
lubes 50/50 or LBT blue. powders tried Imr 3031, H322, VV 133 from starting load to max.
You shoot above 2000fps; what is your bullet hardness? and your recipe?
thanks

[bilmac]

Man 38-44 I'm like Dee and have shot hundreds of 170 gr cast bullets and never leaded a gun. I shoot the 31141 bullet and usually 3031 powder with several different lubes. I usually cast the bullets fairly hard like straight wheel weights dropped in water. When my guns lead, not the 30-30 but others, it is always near the throat. I think I read somewhere that leading near the muzzle indicates that your lube is not up to snuff. But then I've used LBT blue and never had a problem. I would maybe try another lube or two, but if that didn't work I would suspect a bad barrel. One sleeper lube that made cast bullets work in my 45-70 when nothing else would is white lithium grease. It is messy and you have to put it on by hand and I don't size the bullets, but it made a world of difference in my gun.

[WayneS]

38-44
sounds like you might have a bad[rough] barrel, I'ld suggest give it a good cleaning then try some low Vel. loads, of say 10.0-12.0 Unique with some .310 bullets, IF you still see leading, next easiest step would be to fire lap your barrel.
Just a thought

[Dee]

38-44, I'm shooting gas checked wheel weights, and my own lube. The lube is 1 lb of Vaseline, 1 lb of canning paraffin, a big table spoon of something like STP oil treatment, and a hand full of crayons, your choice of color for the purpose of COLOR.
Melt it all together in a can, OUTSIDE! It becomes flammable when too hot. After it cools I just cut small chunks off, and stuff them in my re sizer. Been using it for over 30 years.
All rifles are different, and yours may not like mine. I use the same in my 357 mag rifle, and hand guns.

[38-44]

Thanks for your answers
but my barrel is like new;(you can see a little blue remaining) I have slugged it and it has no constriction nor roughness.
with jackets it print 1" at 50 yds.
the leading is particularly on the last4" and in the grooves. This means too fast . but it is the same at starting loads
with all the good lubes and hardnes from 15  to 30 BHN
thanks for all

[ButlerFord45]

Thanks for your answers
but my barrel is like new;(you can see a little blue remaining) I have slugged it and it has no constriction nor roughness.
with jackets it print 1" at 50 yds.
the leading is particularly on the last4" and in the grooves. This means too fast . but it is the same at starting loads
with all the good lubes and hardnes from 15  to 30 BHN
thanks for all

Failure to remove the copper fouling would have been my first guess till we get to this "you can see a little blue remaining", something's just not right here.  The bore should not be blued.

[haroldclark]

38-44 ....... Barrel leading.  If you are using hard cast bullets, the barrel will lead near the throat and then sometimes at the muzzle. 

Recently, I have two new converts to the 30/30 Marlin Rifles with cast bullets.  Oregon Trails Bullets for the 30 caliber with gas checks are 9 Hard on a Saeco Hardness Tester.  That is equivalent of 18 to 19 on the Brinnell Scale. With 27.5 grains of Reloader 7, that bullet leaded his barrel from throat to muzzle in about 5 shots and he kept going.  That was against my suggestions.  The other convert did the same thing and has damned cast bullets.  (Speaking of a hard headed old coot). Wups, I'm 6 years his senior.  The bullet I'm speaking of is a duplicate of the Lyman 311041.

I have chronographed bullets made of wheel weights and 2% tin added to fill the mold groves and crannies, at 2245 fps.  Wheel-weights will run between 10 and 12 on a Brinnell scale.  (I'm converting these numbers from my Saeco Tester that has a vernier reading of Zero to 10, with 10 being Linotype).  Yeah, the trusted old Lyman books will suggest a Lyman #2 metal that will run 15 on a Brinnell.  I am an avid fan of Lyman's data and use it frequently for both cast and jackete bullets.

If you slow that hard bullet down to 1800 fps, it most likely will not lead. (Like with 20 grains of Reloader 7)  This past week, I cast a batch of bullets that will run about 10 on the Brinnell scale.  I'm loading the .357s today.  I shoot my 357s in a Marlin 1894 out to distances that I can't tell you about.  My 30/30s are all going under 1800 fps.  I only shoot Steel Silhouettes with them.  I use a 200 grain Saeco bullet in my 357.  I can only load them one at a time (too long for the magazine operation)

My first experience with cast bullets was a disaster with 8 hours of cleaning the barrel (this was before the now available solvents and Lead Wipe-a-Way clothes.  Guess what they were made of?  Linotype!!!!!!!  22 on the Brinnell scale.  If I hadn’t been determined I would have chucked the cast rifle idea.  A friend gave me the ready to load bullets and a suggested load with IMR 4895.

One of the guys suggested fire lapping the barrel.  That is always a good idea for a cast bullet shooter.  The only barrels that I have not fire lapped (With LBT lapping compound) are CZs and Dave Van Horn customs.  I make my own bullets for lapping.  New barrels are still in a rough form.  A fire lapped barrel will not collect copper fouling, either.  I have fire lapped dozens of barrels and have never seen on that didn’t improve accuracy.

If you have a smooth barrel, the only cleaning you will have to do is wipe out the fouling and you are ready for another hundred rounds.

I could tell you stories about cleaning guns that make you think your rifle has gone to the devil, until you fire about 20 rounds to foul it and then it will start shooting like a target gun after that.

I have two Contenders in 30/30 that have been fire lapped and shoot like target guns with cast bullets.  I don't shoot my Winchesters (94) much because of eyesight or the lack of.  I have a Savage Bolt rifle in 30/30 and a Marlin Cowboy with the Octagonal barrel and the Marlin is my favorite with a 10X scope.

I have a Saeco bullet mold #630 that is a plain base and weighs 138 grains.  I can get that up to 1440 fps with no leading with 8 grains of Unique in my 24" barrel.  How sweet that is for plinking.  The bullet is the accurate #316 with the gas check shank milled off.  It came from Saeco all ready to use.

Harold Clark

[qajaq59]

My Winchester 94 loves the cast Lyman #311041 GC bullet with 24.5 grs of IMR 3031. You just tell it where you want it to go and it does the rest. And I'm using a 50/50 alloy of PB amd WW with some tin added. No leading and good expansion. Lots of people tell me that is too soft an alloy, but the Winchester seems to like it. The 94s are fast, and fun to shoot with a peep sight.

[pourboy]

Hi Dee
I also own a 94 carbine 30/30 perfect bore and not able to shoot cast bullet without leading at the muzzle after 5 shots
the bore is 309 I have tried 308,309,310 sizing and BHN 15 to 30
My mold is Lyman 311041 GC
lubes 50/50 or LBT blue. powders tried Imr 3031, H322, VV 133 from starting load to max.
You shoot above 2000fps; what is your bullet hardness? and your recipe?
thanks

Are you getting actual streaks of leading, or just a fine dusting? I'm a bit surprised that this is happening with LBT Blue & gaschecks. Have you slugged your bore? Is the slug looser at the muzzle, when driven from the breech end? Your bore may be larger at the muzzle than at the breech. This isn't uncommon with lever actions, especially Winchesters that have been cleaned many times over the years from the muzzle without a bore guide. You wouldn't be able to discover it if you only slug the barrel from the muzzle like the funny books, er... magazines tell you to do. You may also have a restriction somewhere in the bore, making the bullet undersized by the time it reaches the muzzle.