Interesting information about Math in the United States!

[Heather]

As some of you may know I pulled Evan out of public school and am homeschooling him and Bradley.  They are 6 and 5 years old.  I have done much research on which homeschooling program I want to use and have decided to get supplies from multiple places.  There isn't a Math book for their level from ANY of the companies that follows a logical coherent curriculum.  After more research I have found a text book company out of Japan that I can actually understand!  Then after much more research I came across studies done on the difference of the math curriculum and math scores across different countries.  Boy did it surprise me that the countries that score the highest use the books that the average person can follow.  I think the problem with U.S. text books is that they give TOO MANY lessons with too little info on each lesson.  Then the next year they add just a little bit.  The books from overseas offer less lessons but much more info on the lessons.  I just have one question.   

BTW...the study was done in the US...if they know what the problem is why don't they fix it???

Heather

[quickdtoo]

Heather, your subject had me real curious for a moment!!! But on the topic, my son and daughter in law are home schooling the 4 grandkids, oldest will be 11 in December, I'll have to check into their strategy. 

Tim

[Heather]

Musta had someone on my mind! :-)

Heather

[TribReady]

Heather, you need to focus....    no matter how gorgeous he is   

Seriously, can you post the name of the textbook company you're using? I'd like to look into their selections.   Thank you.

[Heather]

Here is a link to the text books.

http://www.globaledresources.com/products/books/math_elementary/index.html


Here is a link to a homeschooling program developed to mirror this type of curriculum

http://www.mathmammoth.com/blue-series.php

Heather

[45-70.gov]

i  am not  a fan   of  home schooling to the exclusion  of  a  ''formal school''

not  all can  afford  private school  especially with the tax  burden  of educating  others  children

i  went  2  private  skules  most   al   my  life.....hukt on  foniks  werks fer  mee

but  i learned  more  of how to deal  with  life  in the  public  intoctrination  centers

i  learned  to deal with  the rich  brats  and to this day  don't comunicate  well  with  low class  folks

if  i had  it  to do over with  my  kids  not  sure what i would  do
hind  sight is  2020... id  say private  school   first  sing  of a problem...seperate  from  any bad influence

the  problem  with  math  i see  is.......100%  is the  ONLY  acceptable grade  to  pass to the next  level
no  need  to  try  algebra  if  you don't  comprehend  the  distributive properties....right?

most  of the  kids  i know  that were  home schooled  didn't turn out  so well

not  saying  they  won't  just  my  limited  observation

my  advice.....
keep them in school

tutor  them  yourself  after school
hire  a tutor
my  brother  used to  work as  an   after school  tutor  so that  type  of help is out there

[Questor]

Heather:

This is fascinating. I didn't know about the understand-ability of the foreign books. It makes perfect sense, though. I have more than a casual interest in this because my wife is a math teacher and I was a math major. Every few years my wife's school district changes the books and they seem to generally complicate things too much. One of my complaints about math as it is taught today is that there is very little presented about why the various branches of math exist. A lot of times, knowing the origin of something makes a lot of things clearer.

The algorithms we currently use for common arithmetic are just a bit over 100 years old, but that also means that they haven't changed in over a hundred years, so there should be no need to complicate and change the curriculum every few years.

[Graybeard]

so there should be no need to complicate and change the curriculum every few years.

Sure there is. How else will the book companies make millions selling new books otherwise? And how will the book buyers for the school systems get their kick backs for buying from that specific company otherwise?

See there really is a reason.

[MGMorden]

The state of public education in the country is indeed atrocious.  Particularly in the southern parts of the country.  I graduated Salutatorian of my high school class (of 354).  Aced math in public school like nobody's business.  Then I got to college with other students from all over the country (and even the world - I went to Clemson and in the Computer Science program we had a very large number of students from India).  

Talk about feeling unprepared.  Despite acing math in high school college hit me like a brick wall.  I still did ok in every other subject (heck after dropping my calculus class 1st semester I had a 4.0GPA for a while there), but I quickly learned that the students from up north and overseas were doing far better.  I went to that university with 6 other students from my high school.  At the end of the first year 3 dropped out of college completely.  The remaining 4 of us ALL dropped or failed our math classes and had to take them over the summer at a community college (where the classes were easier and the credits transferred).   Out of us 4 another one dropped out after 2 more years.  The 3 of us that did graduate eventually adjusted to the math curriculum, but overall my prior schooling hadn't prepared me at ALL for that part of my life.

As you say though, a lot of the textbooks suck, and what's worse is that the teachers are often made to follow them.  After graduating I got a job teaching computer classes at a technical college for about a year (took that long before I figured out the pay was better doing rather than teaching).  We were assigned our textbooks for our classes - the teacher couldn't choose a different one even if they disliked the text.  Then we'd periodically have a monitor come in to ensure that we were teaching from the lesson plan that they had handed to us which matched the book.  It was terrible.  The best I could do to make up for the lousy book was create some handouts for them.

I can honestly say that if/when I ever have children, they'll be going to a private school that I personally check the curriculum on to make sure they're adequately preparing the students for what lies ahead.

[Questor]

GB:

That, unfortunately, is the reason for it. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense. Every few years some new eggheads in education think they need to get on some educational bandwagon and change simple fundamentals that don't need to be changed. You don't need a 500 page book to learn any branch of math, especially not k-12 arithmetic, algebra, Euclidean plane geometry, trigonometry, and calculus. You could get all of those in a nice, meaningful and concise package that's a couple of hundred pages long, even with plenty of room for examples.

[ToadHill]

I hated math in High school.  Found out in my senior year that if I wanted to get into college I needed math so I finally took algebra.  When I got to college I had to take a math course as part of the business school requirements.  Course was called Business Math, I figured it was 60 day 6% method so I signed up for it.  When I got the textbook I opened it and the first chapter read "Integral calculus as applied to business decisions.  I busted my but in that class and was able to come out with a C, made me a happy men. 

By the way my daughter homeschool's her 3 boys I wasn't sure it was a good idea but she has a masters degree and a teaching certificate so I kept my mouth shut.  The boys are doing very well.

[Oldshooter]

Heather, I have no problem with home school and I do understand the reasoning behind it! My concern is the lack of inter-action with peers, and the things learned there! Have you made allowances for that?

My fear would be smarter than average children with retarded social and interpersonal skills?

[littlecanoe]

Heather,

One of the biggest arguments that you will hear against your decision is that your boys won't be "socialized".
You've probably already seen negatives on the "socialization" that they have gotten in the system, including but not limited to the quiality of teaching.  If this is an issue there are homeshool groups that meet regularly for field trips and interaction.  This can be a trap if too much time is spent in the groups as it can really add a lot of activity to your life.

No degree is necessary to teach your children.  You have researched.  There are tons of options for curriculum and technique.  The benefits are amazing in that you can mix and match to meet the needs of your fella's as you see them arise.  If you see a problem you can change tactics immediately.  Your boys won't be limited by others but will learn to learn.  The independent learning skills that they develop will set a precident that will benefit them the rest of their lives.  They won't be wasting hours of their day following the crowd through lines but will be able to devote less time to "school" and learn more.  They will be able to be involved more directly, and for more time each day, with their parents.  You won't have to "unindoctrinate".  The list of benefits goes on and on.

Discipline to the task is the key but since you've gotten this far with this decision that's likely not an issue.

The best to your family.  Enjoy this new journey.


"Education is not the filling of a bucket but the lighting of a fire".  William Butler Yates

[Heather]

Thanks for the socializing concerns as I had those myself.  I have enrolled the boys in Karate full time and we are at the school many nights a week where they interact with kids of varying ages for a couple of hours each night.  There is also a home-school "club" for lack of a better work that operates around here.  They meet up for something EVERY week.  We go math bowling, science skating..etc.  It is a fun adventure with a school lesson included.  Our local museum holds a nature or history class once a week.  These are FREE to home-school kids.  There is also a group of home-school moms that come to the karate school.  We do kid swaps so that the kids get instruction from one than one person if they are struggling with a particular area.  Sometimes one person can explain it in a way another hasn't tried yet and it works.  Had I not found all of the different socializing networks in my community I would not feel half as secure in my decision.

Heather

[Questor]

For my own kids, school is a major social influence on them. I see it as something far beyond just academic education. They are learning about collaboration, and operating independently of their parents, and making friends, and engaging in sports and band. I would never consider home schooling for those reasons. The benefits to them are just too great.

It's particularly important to them now as they are in their teens. Other teens are extremely important to their development.

[Oldshooter]

Sounds like it is well thought out and you have a good plan, Best wishes for you and your family. Keep us posted as they grow!

[mechanic]

Heather, you have my respect and admiration.  My youngest daughter is doing the same thing.  The schools where she lived had "dumbed down"  the curriculum until my grandchildren were bored stiff. 

I have passed on the links you gave for her consideration.

Regardless of what others may say or think, you do what you perceive to be BEST for YOUR kids. 

Some people have forgotten it's the parents job to make those decisions, not the "state".

Ben

[anweis]

I think the problem with U.S. text books is that they give TOO MANY lessons with too little info on each lesson. 

And too little practice on each type of lesson or learning, after they are introduced to it. And the curriculum is not logical in any way. They keep jumping from one thing to another without making much sense. And the teachers usually just have to take 3 credit hours of calculus in college, pass with a C, and are considered qualified to teach math. Give me a break!!!

I use European Books to teach my 4th grader math - one or two hours every evening, but i can't pull her out of school - and would not, for reasons mentioned by Questor (though, by now, i am disgusted with public schools beyond belief).  She is doing better than many college kids i know, and will probably be ready for the math part of SAT in a year or two. Still, she gets F in school. Go figure.
Some of the best books are from  France, Finland and Russia, and not much reading is needed.

[anweis]

Yep, boredom is there, and it does not help.

[Dixie Dude]

Back in the 80's when I homeschooled my kids, we used a company out of Pensacola, Florida.  I will check to see who they were.  They filmed actual teachers teaching the class.  Kids watch the video on TV and can stop and start if the don't understand.  They send you the videos, you mail them back when they are finished.  Very good school. 

[anweis]

 

Some people have forgotten it's the parents job to make those decisions, not the "state".

Ben

Ben, yes, we are responsible for our own lives and choices, but your way of thinking did get us into trouble when it came to education. From our desire to be in control, we've ended up with complete idiots and ignorants sitting on education boards, instead of professional people. What does a car salesman's wife know about science or math education? Nada. Yet, they sit and vote on education boards.
The students at Clemson that gave the above poster a run for his money all came from educational systems in which professionals have more to say, and the governments imposed strict national standards.
We need math graduates to teach math, and chemistry graduates to teach chemistry, and English graduates to teach grammar. We don't need "I'm cute, and blonde, and young, and underpaid, and i have a degree in Education and i took 3 credits of science and i am qualified to teach science to your kids for 8 or 12 years". We have enough of those, and look where we are now.
Then again, we would have to pay higher salaries to our teachers - so we could attract better ones, and would not have to meddle our politics and beliefs into the school curricula. But we are too selfish to pay higher taxes to give more money to our schools; and we only vote for politicians who promise us tax cuts. We Americans have this great fear that public schools degrade our chicldren's religious beliefs. To avoid that, we meddle with the education systems and sit on education boards, and mingle politics with education; the more we do, the more damage we cause.   Just like i don't tell NASA how to build their stuff, i don't store managers to end up on education boards.
Yes, the public schools in the South are really, really, really, uh...

[Questor]

Heather:

I should have mentioned that my wife is a teacher in the same district that my kids go to school in. That helps a lot because she knows how to navigate the system. When the kids were little I considered putting the kids into private school instead of public school, but my wife convinced me that they could get a good education and it has turned out that they have.

[Dixie Dude]

It may come as a surprise to many, but home schooled kids do better in college and in the real world.  Most spelling bee, history bee, and math bee champions in the last 20 years or so have been home schooled.  I was also told they need to learn how to interact with other kids.  Well, if you take them to church with kids their age, family reunions, and meet weekly with other home schooled kids, they will learn to interact.  They learn most of their interaction skills from the parents anyways.  I found that teaching them the basics and show them practical applications, like how to tell how wide a river or creek is without going across using math, or how to do fractions by cutting lumber or building wood projects.  Learning the life sciences by collecting insects, leaves, etc. and identifying them.  Learning about electricity by repairing things, or building radios or electric motors from scrap materials.  Learning how to find out about things by reading, researching, and looking up things in a library, encyclopedia, or internet.  Learning can be fun, but when you have kids in public school that really don't want to learn, they disrupt learning.  

[Dixie Dude]

Here is the program we used.  May have changed a lot since the 80's.

http://www.abeka.org/

[Sourdough]

North Pole is known as Alaska's Bible Belt.  So many parents do not agree with the way the public school system works here.  Many home school.  I would say roughly 40% of the kids in North Pole are home schooled.

As for missing out on how to get along with other kids, Have not seen a problem.  Many of the Home school kids play sports with the local school.  In high school several kids on Sky's high school hockey team were home schooled.  A very good friend of ours home schooled her two kids.  They were the same age as Sky.  We left Anchorage at the same time they did going to DC.  While there I often remarked to Michelle that those boys were missing out on the social aspect of going to school.  Later I found out no they did not miss out on anything.  Todaqy both of those boys are grown and out working.  They are doing just fine.

As for Sky, we put him in a Montessori International school at the age of three.  When we brought him back to Alaska the public school system wanted to put him in with kids his own age, even thou he was scholastically two years ahead of the kids his age.  We ended up putting him in a Catholic School, they would work with us.  While Sky did have some classes with kids his own age, most of his classes was in grades higher.  When Sky was in the third grade, come time for Science, History, and Math he would move to the fifth grade class for those subjects.  When Sky was in the fifth grade he would take classes with the 9th graders for History and Math.  At the beginning of Sky's Junior year many of his friends had moved to public school.  He told me he wanted to make the move as well.  So we let him transfer to North Pole High School.  They gave him some test at the first of the year and ended up giving him all senoir classes.  At the end of the year he had enough credits to graduate a year early.  He did not want to, he wanted to play high school hockey his senior year.  I agreed only if he took some college classes.  Sky went to UAF during the mornings, then returned to North Pole in the afternoon to take metal shop and automotive shop.  Those were his senior classes.  Then he was there to practice with the hockey team, after school.

My Mother complained about Sky going to a private Catholic school.  She claimed he would not understand how to get along with other kids.  Wrong, Sky is a well rounded young man.  He and I discussed it once about how he was protected by going to the private school.  Sky said "No I ride the bus with Catholic High School boys, They make sure I hear things just like any public school kid".

I do not feel Home schooling is a detriment to the child learning to get along with others.  All the ones I see get along just fine.

As for the books, if the parent is involved with finding the right books, the information will be presented in a manner it makes sense to the child and the child learns.  Most home school kids place higher on test than the public school kids.  Sky was just telling me earlier this week, how many of the home schooled kids made high scores on the test the military came and gave the kids their senior year.  They are the ones the Nave and Air Force recruiters are calling weekly. 

[mechanic]

 

Some people have forgotten it's the parents job to make those decisions, not the "state".

Ben

Ben, yes, we are responsible for our own lives and choices, but your way of thinking did get us into trouble when it came to education. us tax cuts. We Americans have this great fear that public schools degrade our chicldren's religious beliefs. To avoid that, we meddle with the education systems and sit on education boards, and mingle politics with education; the more we do, the more damage we cause.   Just like i don't tell NASA how to build their stuff, i don't store managers to end up on education boards.
Yes, the public schools in the South are really, really, really, uh...

Actually, many of the schools in the south far exceed their northern counterparts.  All of this is of course regional.  Money doesn't fix it, as we now spend as a percentage far more than we once did, and education is not improving.  The curriculum for local schools in Ga. is chosen at the state level, local school boards have little input.  The problem is that we have chosen to dumb down to the lowest level and leave little room for excellence in some cases.  The greatest problem is parental apathy.  Ultimately the rearing of children is the parents responsibility. It is when they abrogte that responsibility that problems occur.

I will assume you are an educator.  If so, good for you.  Both my daughters have education degrees. My son in law has a doctorate.  That within itself does not make them good parents nor good educators.

My youngest gradson was reading at age three, and in the second grade tested at the eith grade reading level.  In public school, he was taught at the second grade level.  My daughter made a good decision.