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Offline BoomLover

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Bronze Cannon Balls
« on: October 27, 2009, 05:42:28 PM »
Anyone see History Channel where they showed the finding of the ship "Capitana" off the coast of Equador? They were pulling up Bronze cast cannon balls, which had a dual purpose in those days. 1) Cannon balls..(duh!) and 2) barter or trade for the precious metal, ie: copper, used in the bronze. If they didn't need to fire them at an enemy, they traded or sold them for other goods or services. Thought that was pretty smart of them in the day!
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 05:51:25 PM »
You know RocklockI is going to see this........... you know you just created a monster................. ;D
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Offline Evil Dog

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 05:58:02 PM »
Oh no, what have you started?
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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 06:15:39 PM »
Ha Ha, Har Har, Hee Hee, Chuckle Chuckle, (evil laugh)...we shall see what Gary comes up with in the casting department! A bit of experimentation, I would guess. Bronze balls, who would have ever thunk it! Obviously the Spaniards did, but nowadays...?
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 09:00:58 PM »
With zinc at a dollar a pound and bronze at four to five times that (and a lot easier to melt), I doubt we will see any bronze shot cast.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 04:12:16 AM »
no worries , shot comes later . but bronze ...? george is right the copper electrical scrap ,and tin ingots are too costly to use for that .

smee2 is almost ready to invest . its cold and snowing here for the next few days . uuhhg .

 
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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 04:27:40 AM »
Quote from: RocklockI on October 28, 2009, 04:12:16 AM
no worries , shot comes later . but bronze ...? george is right the copper electrical scrap ,and tin ingots are too costly to use for that .

smee2 is almost ready to invest . its cold and snowing here for the next few days . uuhhg .

 

And here I thought you would take it up as an artistic and technical challenge ...... casting the perfect sphere.......  ;D
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Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 04:38:42 AM »
Quote
casting the perfect sphere.......

Funny about "cannon people" and spheres.  I visited the great author Warren S. Ripley (ARTILLERY AND AMMUNITION OF THE CIVIL WAR) at his home in Charleston SC about 1978 to talk, well cannons.  What a wonderful, distinguished gentleman he was.  He told me he had relinquished his artillery research to Ed Olmstead by that time, Ed would carry the torch.  He showed me some interesting stuff, one hobby he had taken up in place of all the cannon stuff was making perfect crystal balls.  I don't know how he did it but he had made some crystal balls that were like 3 to 4 inches in diameter, which he had measured and they were perfect spheres.  Talk about an obscure hobby-or are there lots of folks out there making perfect spheres?
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 03:39:49 PM »
I've been thinking of casting tin cannon balls, as I can get it cheaper than lead; and it casts perfectly in a stone-cold mould.  Hardness of about Rockwell B 42.
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Offline Double D

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 05:10:49 PM »
Tin!!!

Yikes, copper is cheaper!
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 06:03:14 PM »
Quote from: cannonmn on October 28, 2009, 04:38:42 AM
Quote
casting the perfect sphere.......

Funny about "cannon people" and spheres.  I visited the great author Warren S. Ripley (ARTILLERY AND AMMUNITION OF THE CIVIL WAR) at his home in Charleston SC about 1978 to talk, well cannons.  What a wonderful, distinguished gentleman he was.  He told me he had relinquished his artillery research to Ed Olmstead by that time, Ed would carry the torch.  He showed me some interesting stuff, one hobby he had taken up in place of all the cannon stuff was making perfect crystal balls.  I don't know how he did it but he had made some crystal balls that were like 3 to 4 inches in diameter, which he had measured and they were perfect spheres.  Talk about an obscure hobby-or are there lots of folks out there making perfect spheres?

perfect crystal balls ......? that is a strange endevour ...? was it mystical thing , or a project to make perfect spheres

did he say what the goal was and why ?   
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Offline rio grande

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 06:16:42 PM »
The Mexican Army used copper cannon balls at the battle of Palo Alto, 1846, and most certainly at other times.
 "Most of the Mexican cannon shot was made of copper or cupreous alloys, as opposed to the iron shot used by the U.S. One Mexican copper solid shot was recovered during the 1979 archeological investigation of the Palo Alto battlefield. This artifact weighed 4.76 pounds and measured 3.12 inches in diameter (Bond 1979:19)."

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/paal/thunder-cannon/chap6.htm
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 07:11:03 PM »
Mexico probably has more reserves of copper than of iron.  Cost usually relates to scarcity.  We use iron because we have a lot of it, the Mexicans probably had a lot more copper than iron.

Regarding tin, one could probably sell the tin and get two or three times the volume of lead for it.
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 12:37:42 AM »
Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 28, 2009, 03:39:49 PM
I've been thinking of casting tin cannon balls, as I can get it cheaper than lead; and it casts perfectly in a stone-cold mould.  Hardness of about Rockwell B 42.

 If you've got pure stuff, I'd gladly trade you 20# of lead for 5# of tin. I need some for making bronze.
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 02:17:25 PM »
That would be a pretty good deal.  Density of tin is 7.29 g/cm3; density of lead is 11.35 g/cm3.  11.35/7.29=1.55 or 7.29/11.35=.642.

799 cm3 Pb; 311 cm3 Sn.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 02:26:58 PM »
George , please this is common knowledge ! ;D

everybody knows its a good deal ! come on ...... ::)

but  ..... was it a good deal for Catwhisperer or VIC3 ?

 :D sorry but you kinda lost me ......

i know you did not mean too ...?  8) much .

gary

 
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 03:01:01 PM »
I was referring to the 20 lbs of Pb for 5 lbs of Sn.
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Offline Double D

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 03:03:01 PM »
George, the round ball calculater doesn't have Sn.
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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 03:28:15 PM »
Private you better find a Sn ! they are everywhere and you can not find one frikkin Sn . What are you PRIVATE !!! SOME KIND OF COMMIE SENT HERE TO MUCK MY CORPS you better get squared away private  AND FIND A Sn!  ;D

30 , 29 ,28 ,27 ,26, 25 , down to 0 and you had better find a Sn or YOU will BE A RECYCLE PRIVATE !!!

BACK TO TRAINING DAY 1 !!!!!!!!!!! :P

sorry DD Jebus ,,,that brings back memories ! RECYLE YOUR A*S PRIVATE ! that would give me a sleepless night for sure !

what a horrible word ........ 8) Semper Fi Doug
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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 03:30:21 PM »
That's true but tin is so expensive that it didn't seem reasonable to use as expendable shot.  It's density calculates as 455 lbs/ft3 which is only a little more than the 437 lbs/ft3 of cast iron.  So simply multiply the cast iron value by 1.04 (or add 4%) for a reasonable approximation.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 03:52:10 PM »
OK.  Here's my situation.
I get scrap lead-free solder (electronic  96.5% tin, 3.0% silver and 0.5% copper) at work for a bit more than they could get from the recycler.(Which is very low - bringing my cost for materials to a buck a pound give or take 50 cents depending on the  market.  Yield is about 80-90% when smelted.)  I sell it at the rifle matches in ingots to fellow shooters for $6 a pound.  That covers my costs of propane and a little towards the labor.
I'm not into shipping it.
So right now I have about a hundred pounds of it and am trying to figure how fast I accumulate it.  There might come a point where I would consider shipping, but not at this point in life.
Therefore, it makes sence to cast it into spheres - as long as they are recoverable.


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Offline GGaskill

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 04:12:56 PM »
That would make an interesting bronze alloy, 90% Cu, 9.7% Sn, .3% Ag.  Wonder what its properties would be.
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Offline dan610324

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 01:09:24 AM »
THAT ALLOY IS MUCH MORE COMMON FOR ORIGINAL CANNONS THEN YOU COULD BELIEVE  ;D

no not joking , in 1600 they didnt have the pure metals as we have today
the swedish copper contained lots of silver and they try to get the most of it out of the copper as the silver was an extremely valueable metal back then but their methods wasnt so refined as they are today so it was still some tenths of silver remaining in the copper , gold also .


cw

STOP STOP STOP
dont sell an ounce more of that
collect as much as possible , with that silver content you can easily make an good profit by sending it away and have it refined (separated)
sell the pure silver and tin as pure metals and you could make a hell of a good profit

the loss of the 3% silver doesnt make any difference for the bullet casting
Im sure gary will buy tin from you instead of any other company , probably many more will do it also

I would guess that silver is over 300 dollar per pound today
100 pound of that scrap soldering tin will give you 3 pounds of silver
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 02:06:15 AM »
Quote from: GGaskill on October 29, 2009, 04:12:56 PM
That would make an interesting bronze alloy, 90% Cu, 9.7% Sn, .3% Ag.  Wonder what its properties would be.

 We may never know, GG. "Feline Mumbler" has cornered the market on the stuff!  >:(



 He'll get what's comin' to him............ Remember the Hunt Brothers, back in the 80's? ;D
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2009, 06:17:20 AM »
Quote from: dan610324 on October 30, 2009, 01:09:24 AM
...
collect as much as possible , with that silver content you can easily make an good profit by sending it away and have it refined (separated)
sell the pure silver and tin as pure metals and you could make a hell of a good profit
...


Thanks, I'll look into it.
It does make shiney bullets though.
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Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2009, 08:44:38 AM »
Quote from: Cat Whisperer on October 30, 2009, 06:17:20 AM
Quote from: dan610324 on October 30, 2009, 01:09:24 AM
...
collect as much as possible , with that silver content you can easily make an good profit by sending it away and have it refined (separated)
sell the pure silver and tin as pure metals and you could make a hell of a good profit
...


Thanks, I'll look into it.
It does make shiney bullets though.


I've heard that they're also the only rounds that can stop werewolves. Seriously, the other day on the History Channel they aired a show about a supposedly true story that took place in France, (The Real Wolfman) and in the show some experts tested the ballistics and stopping power of real silver bullets, and in both areas found them to perform very poorly.

The Real Wolfman
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2009, 11:32:05 PM »
 Don't forget about vampires. They're usually shot at close range. I don't think anyone ever produced a vampire shotgun for when they take the form of a bat...

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Vampire+Gun

 Make sure you get an "authentic" kit; vampire extermination requires the best stuff in order to be effective...

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Offline RocklockI

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2009, 02:10:34 AM »
Well you dont see one of those everyday ,i liked the vampire gun that link took me to.  :o a cross on the muzzle face ! vampirer cannon
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2009, 02:55:18 AM »
Quote from: RocklockI on October 31, 2009, 02:10:34 AM
Well you dont see one of those everyday ,i liked the vampire gun that link took me to.  :o a cross on the muzzle face ! vampirer cannon

With a mtching cross designed into the linstock and .....

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Offline BoomLover

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Re: Bronze Cannon Balls
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2009, 07:09:31 AM »
A vampire cannon would of course require casting silver balls to take them out...or would that be silver grape shot once they get airborn... might preform better than silver bullets out of a gun. Since silver is so soft, better make an amalgum like a a dentist would use filling teeth.. much harder, but still 60% or so silver.
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