Author Topic: THIS IS MY OPINION  (Read 2488 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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THIS IS MY OPINION
« on: October 27, 2009, 10:08:43 PM »
Self defense weapons and concealed weapons?
We sit here at the computer and discuss weapons. We have opinions what the boys ought to have to carry into battle. We talk about how dangerous it is out there, in the world, everyday.
We see howfolks are and how they act without regards to others.
THEN, we want a weapon we can trust our lives to, AND, our family and friends.
We want this, all the guarentees, lifetime warranty, fully functional, without flaws----FOR $600.00 or less.
Hog wash!!  Yes, I said hogwash.
Go buy an old revolver from a pawn shop, some piece of a gun off the streets then load it up, put in the console or in the closet and say I have a self defense gun-----HOGWASH.
I hope you never, ever have to trust any gun to save your life. I hope you live too a ripe old age and a life that has no conflicts, stresses or bumps in the road.
I doubt it. You may never, ever have a need for a weapon---I hope that is true---but you may.
This maybe is what we talk about here.
I just bought a used Norinco from a boy. I paid $400.00 for it---I have no idea what kind of shape it is in---I bought a pig in a poke. I maintain we buy a pig in a poke everytime we buy something--Autos or guns.
This Norinco pig in a poke that I may have to trust my life on is not going to stay a pig in a poke, S--- in one hand and hope in the other, for very long.
I am going to slick it up as best I can and it is going to see a Smith that is worth his salt in trade and that Norinco will then be worty of my trust.
My honest opinion is, some of you boys just don't get it. It is not a game. Get ONE and make it worthy of trust, even if it cost you $1,500.00. NOW, you can trust it and then you won't know til you do.
Put some bang time on the roscoe---make sure, don't just talk about it.
I am not mad and I don't hate anybody. I just hear you boys talk and it makes me afraid for you and yours when the SHTF.
Blessings   
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline John R.

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 05:02:06 AM »
I agree Williamlayton, to many people want to buy a $150.00 Hi-Point, and swear it's just as good as your Sig, Beretta, Glock, etc. If it were, then you would see more professionals carrying the likes of a Hi-Point, but it ain't now and NEVER will be! Buy the BEST you can afford and practice.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 06:46:40 AM »
It doesn't matter what you buy and what price you pay, they all will mess up one day, FACT!

I prefer a wheel gun, but that's just me.
If I really wanted something that stood the best chance of working every time (gun wise) I would trust a single shot hammer shotgun.
Sure the hammer could break or the trigger or the firing pin.
Heck, even the ammo is subject.
Not likely but it could.
I could pay a thousand $ easy for a hand gun and still have it break no matter how good of parts it has in it.
I trust every gun I own and will continue to until it proves otherwise.
While I don't advise buying a Saturday night special or a piece of junk, if that is all I had I would use it and trust it or I wouldn't have it at all.
I would have a baseball bat or a piece of pipe.

No matter what firearm it is you still will be taking your chances with the best money can buy/build that just when you need it most it will malfunction.

The only thing in life that has a 100% guarantee is that we all will die at some point.


LONGTOM
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That my two young sons may never have to know the horrors of war. 

I will stand for your rights as my forefathers did before me!
My thanks to those who have, are and will stand for mine!
To those in the military, I salute you!

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Offline trotterlg

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 06:14:12 PM »
I'm sort of the same opinion as LONGTOM, as long as what you have to carry works and you will take it with you, then it is probably good.  I am not a LEO, I seldom go anywhere that I know to be bad and I think my chances of getting into a shootout with a band of fanatic terrorists with assalt rifles is probably slim to none.  My thought is that whatever I carry probably only has to shoot once but do it every time, sort of the single shot shotgun train of thought, dead simple type of gun.  I've got all the classics, 1911, S&W in 32-20, even a little 25 ACP, but what I take with me is (hold the snickers) a 2 shot derringer in 38 Special.  It fits easily in an inside the pants holster and I can honestly can say I don't even know it is there when I carry it.  Guess I will be S.O.L. when I run into that band of terrorists.  Larry 
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline rio grande

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 06:51:29 PM »
Self defense weapons and concealed weapons?
We sit here at the computer and discuss weapons. We have opinions what the boys ought to have to carry into battle. We talk about how dangerous it is out there, in the world, everyday.
We see howfolks are and how they act without regards to others.
THEN, we want a weapon we can trust our lives to, AND, our family and friends.
We want this, all the guarentees, lifetime warranty, fully functional, without flaws----FOR $600.00 or less.
Hog wash!!  Yes, I said hogwash.
Go buy an old revolver from a pawn shop, some piece of a gun off the streets then load it up, put in the console or in the closet and say I have a self defense gun-----HOGWASH.
I hope you never, ever have to trust any gun to save your life. I hope you live too a ripe old age and a life that has no conflicts, stresses or bumps in the road.
I doubt it. You may never, ever have a need for a weapon---I hope that is true---but you may.
This maybe is what we talk about here.
I just bought a used Norinco from a boy. I paid $400.00 for it---I have no idea what kind of shape it is in---I bought a pig in a poke. I maintain we buy a pig in a poke everytime we buy something--Autos or guns.
This Norinco pig in a poke that I may have to trust my life on is not going to stay a pig in a poke, S--- in one hand and hope in the other, for very long.
I am going to slick it up as best I can and it is going to see a Smith that is worth his salt in trade and that Norinco will then be worty of my trust.
My honest opinion is, some of you boys just don't get it. It is not a game. Get ONE and make it worthy of trust, even if it cost you $1,500.00. NOW, you can trust it and then you won't know til you do.
Put some bang time on the roscoe---make sure, don't just talk about it.
I am not mad and I don't hate anybody. I just hear you boys talk and it makes me afraid for you and yours when the SHTF.
Blessings   

Good post.
The real issue is where do we put our trust - to trust 100% on any material object is just silly. 
I might sound like a country bumpkin, but I have to say we might consider there is a higher power than lead and steel, and it's His Will that will be done, not ours.
That said though, lots of range time is a real good idea!

Offline Tonk

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 07:17:54 PM »
William, I must take my hat off to you sir!!! Yes indeed, I been telling folks around me at the local shooting ranges and gunstores the same thing for several years. People just don't seem to understand, that the car or truck you paid $1,200 bucks may work fine in getting you around the local area but try taking off on a trip to New York City or California, lots of luck getting their and not breaking down along the way.

If your going to "BET YOUR LIFE" on a handgun, please don't let it be the cheap pocket pistol or some low quailty look alike pistol. Go with what has had a track record for several years and not the newest creation or caliber on the market today. I like Smith and Colt revolvers and their semi-autos as well. Years ago I use to carry a 1911 & a Colt Python, best of both worlds. Now I carry a pair of Glocks and sometimes a Sig for backup.

Also make darn sure the pistol you choose for a CCW self-defense weapon, fits your hand like a fine glove (not cow hide work glove) and if a semi-auto with double action trigger pull, make positive you can hit the target on the very first shot, NOT THE SECOND OR THIRD SHOT!!!

Once again Williiam a very good post with a lot of thought behind the true facts in hat a Concealed Carry Gun should be for you.



Offline drdougrx

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2009, 01:40:13 AM »
Not much more to add here but this....get some training...real training from someone who has an inkling of what a real gunfight is like.  I don't mean handgun safety training, I mean traing with viable techniques and real world advise, like Gunsite or The Lethal Force Institute with Ayoob or from John Farnum or Clint whats his name at Thunder Ranch.  Do something!  All this crap about what we'll do in a bad situation, how many really have been in one...2 armed robberies for me..wasn't armed either time...broad daylight.

Get the book, In the Gravest Extreme by Ayoob.  I buy it for anyone who get's his/her first carry gun.  I try to re-read it every year or so.  It's worth it.

Cooper said that self defence decisions are like trophy hunting....you have to decide...real quick...if you're going to pull the trigger or not and be willing to live with that decision.  Then again...what do I know...
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Offline Mikey

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 01:46:16 AM »
Yet it is the lowest cost government contract pistols that filled the holsters of our WW1, WW2, Korean War and Vietnam War vets and it is the lowest cost government contract Beretta that fills our GI's holsters now, and I do not recall hearing any of these woes from any of those vets.  

I sometimes wonder if all the bells and whistles that make the 'Race Guns' race or make the ccw pieces the most 'ccw capable', detract from the simple notion that it is often the most basic of these tools that work the best.  

I will not argue with anyone who feels the necessity to have a $1,500 1911A1 on his/her nightstand as the most reliable, accurate, functional, dependable etc., handgun they have for home defense; we all have choices.  And while it is true that a $200 handgun is simply not in the same category as the more expensive ones it does not mean they are not reliable and will not serve their intended purpose.  

My choice is a totally reliable, incredibly hard hitting, $100 Tokarev by Norinco.  It is totally reliable because the aftermarket safety the batf required for Chinese imports broke and fell out.  I replaced it and that one broke and fell out too.  When I researched the Tokarev design and saw that the TT33/Type 54s never had a trigger bar safety I left it out and covered the hole with some electrician's tape.  I rarely carry this piece into society, most often preferring it as a flat shooting farm piece; but if I have to use it to defend myself or my home then all I lose is a very inexpensive yet totally reliable handgun.  

And if I lose it after having to use it I will just get another one.  It may cost me twice what the first one cost but I consider that to be inexpensive insurance..... jmtcw.

Offline Dee

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 02:47:11 AM »
Mikey, the first question you should ask yourself about the Norinco is WHY IS THE METAL BREAKING? The answer of course is metallurgy. It is poor. Very poor. Always has been.
Quality is indeed the key, but after market parts not necessarily. Someone mentioned buying a used revolver for a fighting tool. If it was a Smith, Colt, or even a Ruger I would personally inspect the piece, and if it was of proper caliber, YES! I would fight with it, and HAVE FOUGHT with a used Model 28 Smith. And won by the way.
Someone mentioned training, and I most certainly endorse that concept, HOWEVER. When I went to pick a school I would not only ask about the type of training I was going to get but, I would also ask about the TYPE OF EXPERIENCE MY INSTRUCTOR HAD.
In my LE days as a trainer, I taught a class called Vehicle Stop Survival, and Shotgun Stress. It not only taught the many not well known methods of fighting with a shotgun BUT! It taught "MIND SET". The question is actually, if you are brought a fight, WILL YOU FIGHT?
It is an eye opener to hear rounds hitting a vehicle, and it is equally enlightening to hear deformed rounds whinning past you.
Liken it to a marriage counselor whom has never been married. Hmmmmm
I have actually been in a couple of fights, and it is absolutely NOTHING, like what I have listened to from so called experts, and book authors whom are giving advice on a topic they have no actual first hand experience in.
Once again. ASK QUESTIONS OF YOUR INSTRUCTOR. Theory and Reality are not usually the same.
AND! PARTS BREAKING OFF A GUN? That should be very disturbing REGARDLESS, if you feel the part was necessary, ESPECIALLY IF THE PART WAS A FACTORY PART.
Also! $1500.00 for a fighting pistol? How sad that the gun rags have sold that myth. Hell you can walk out of a gun store even with today's prices with a damn AR15 some extra mags and ammo for that price. Bill Wilson is becoming fabulously wealthy because of that mindset.
Using Smith & Wesson, and Springfield armory as an example. You could buy a "used" foundationally solid Smith revolver for $350.00 dollars in say 38 special, spend $50.00 to $100.00 on a REAL ACTION JOB, and have a good fighting handgun. You could spend $450.00 on a good "used" Springfield 45acp auto, and spend $50.00 to $100.0 on a RELIABILITY TUNE-UP, and be as well armed as anyone. Someone tells you, that you can't do it for that, they are blowing sunshine up your kazoo. I HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS.
A "real action job" requires NO PARTS. Just knowledge and skill. A "real reliability tune" on an auto loader requires NO PARTS. Just knowledge and skill.
There are THOUSANDS OF, after market ADD ONS, that you simply do not need.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 03:13:43 AM »
The contention is that you make sure it is reliable---IT may be, right out of the purchase--but make sure.
In my case---and because I am anal about such things--i take it to a Smith and IF it was the only one I could own I would let him be the judge.
If I was Dee or Mikey or such I would do it myownself. I am not and won't be.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline John R.

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 05:28:26 AM »
1911's and Beretta's are not cheap handguns. They may have been the lowest govt. contract price, but if you will notice Hi-Point and some of the other cheapos weren't even in the running. The Army would not dream of arming our forces with Hi-Points. As far as the Makorav, I'm sure it's a fun shooter for the farm, but that's where I'd leave it when looking for a concealed carry piece,especially if parts had been breaking on it.

Offline lrs

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2009, 06:57:37 AM »
Not much more to add here but this....get some training...real training from someone who has an inkling of what a real gunfight is like.  I don't mean handgun safety training, I mean traing with viable techniques and real world advise, like Gunsite or The Lethal Force Institute with Ayoob or from John Farnum or Clint whats his name at Thunder Ranch.  Do something!  All this crap about what we'll do in a bad situation, how many really have been in one...2 armed robberies for me..wasn't armed either time...broad daylight.

Get the book, In the Gravest Extreme by Ayoob.  I buy it for anyone who get's his/her first carry gun.  I try to re-read it every year or so.  It's worth it.

Cooper said that self defence decisions are like trophy hunting....you have to decide...real quick...if you're going to pull the trigger or not and be willing to live with that decision.  Then again...what do I know...


This ought to win post of the day.
I have been doing just what is stated in this post since last August.
We not only cover firearms training, but hand to hand and knife training. 
This type of combat training is available to civilians in many areas across the country.  You can visit the homepage at:
http://www.fight2survive.com/index.php
" we are screwed "

Offline drdougrx

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2009, 07:24:42 AM »
as an aside...please excuse the poor spelling....I was typing in a hurry before work.
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Offline teddy12b

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2009, 08:01:55 AM »
This is the kind of information I'm looking to read about more.  I'd had a permit to carry for years, but more as a means to keep me out of trouble going to & from the shooting range and hunting. 

I recently came a situation where a concealed carry gun would have been nice and I'm doing my homework before buying one.  Anytime I've ever bought a handgun usually the first thing I do is put 200 or more rounds through it.  Both to built my skill & confidence, but also to make sure the gun will work everytime.  I don't let it cool much other than while I reload and shoot as often as well aimed shots will allow.

What I don't get about concealed carry or even handguns in general is why people seem to limit themselves with the range of their pistols.  I usually try to hit targets at 100 yards while standing up with any handgun I've ever had just to see if I can, and also it makes shooting closer targets that much easier.  I saw a great video of a guy shooting at a 200 yard target with a small glock and when he didn't hit he came darn close.

I'm not so sure that you can't get everything you want in a concealed carry gun for under $600.  From what I've been reading about Glocks, they're about as good as it gets and you can find them under $600.  My concealed carry search is focusing on glocks at the moment, but I'd be curious what else or other gun you all think would be a good fit.

Offline lrs

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 08:31:39 AM »
You can get a new Smith Wesson, 38, in one of the various J frames for under $600.  I paid $500 for mine, NIB.
Last night,on TV,  I saw Bob Munden hit a silhoutte at 200 yds with one. 
Point is, it is a better pistol, than most of us are capable of shooting.
" we are screwed "

Offline rio grande

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 12:45:01 PM »
The reason the safety fell off the Norinco Tokarev is because it was a US Gov't mandated add-on so the pistols could be imported.  It was not part of the original design, and was added on cheap and quick.
Nothing wrong with Norinco metallurgy or quality.
Their SKS's are just about as reliable as the sunrise. Their 1911's are well-liked.
If all I had was $150 and a Norinco Tok was all I could afford, I would not feel helpless in the least.
And I have owned many Smiths and Ruger revolvers that would even today would sell for less than $250 and they were perfectly reliable.
Just saw a Smith 5-screw M&P today that locked up tight and smooth action, better than the ones made today, for less than $300 out the door.

Offline Tonk

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2009, 03:41:59 AM »
Well if money is the case and you need a very reliable CCW weapon than I say go to the GLOCK!!! There are more people carrying Glocks as their duty weapon and CCW weapon than any other pistol on the market today and that folks says a lot. Now just ask yourself WHY??? The answer is their reliability to go BANG when you need to pull that trigger.

Now can a Glock break? Anything in this man's world can break but if that Glock breaks, you can fix it yourself without needing a gunsmith or sending it back to the factory and waiting 3 to 5 months to get it back, such as in Colt or Smith & Wesson. Also you can beef up that Glock with various after market parts that are priced cheap in comparison to other pistols parts.

One does NOT have to worry about additional safeties to sweep off in order to fire the Glock semi-auto pistol, a big plus for a CCW weapon. Now most of those model 1911 pistols on the market today, are indeed good quality in a  pistol but I have seen with my own eyes, in the heat of competition, competitor's that have forgotten to sweep the safety off before pulling the trigger. So if that target was shooting back, the guy on the range, would have been a Dead Duck simply put.

I also like what Old Sketter called the "Fool Proof" pistol to have in a gun fight........ A REVOLVER.
You may not have 15 rounds in the magazine but you will be able to count on those that are in that cylinder. Most street confrontation's only fire 3 shots or less anyway according to the FBI records on the street!

Offline Swampman

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2009, 04:32:46 AM »
I too prefer a wheel gun.  I have 2 S&W .38s.  A 4" Model 15 Combat Masterpiece & a Model 36.  They work!  The only semi I'd carry is a Glock probably a Model 19.  It works.
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Offline perrytrails

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2009, 05:41:39 AM »
I agree with you swampman.  I've put lots of rounds through my S&W 642 and carry it often. It is more accurate than me.

I also carry a G19 and G26.  For a CCW weapon I want to point and shoot, and expect it to. They work.

No safety to think about, ease of controls. Keep it simple.

Offline Brett

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2009, 06:23:28 AM »
First I would like to state that IMO it is entirely possible to buy or make a perfectly reliable (as reliable as any mechanical device can be) and adequate self defense and or CCW firearm for well under $600.  As someone noted a S&W j-frame can be had new for around $400 and I certainly would trust my life to one. If you want to use vehicles as an analogy I would bet my Chrysler PT cruiser would get us to New York from North Carolina with no more difficulty and in the same amount of time as a Cadillac Escalade.   

But just as important, possibly even more so, is your mindset.  Will you do what needs to be done without hesitation when the SHTF.

I share the following article from a recent USCCA newsletter.  It's something we should think about now before we get into that situation.

THE QUESTION OF KILLING
"...You don't have to like it....
                          ... You just have to acknowledge it. ...."
by CR Williams
Call it Reality and define it this way: If you are forced to shoot someone, they will probably die.

And while I for one hope that shooting someone just makes them stop attacking me or someone else, The Reality is that--especially if I shoot them where everyone else says I should--if I do have to shoot them, then they will most likely stop their attack because they die as a result of the gunshot(s).

So if you or me or anyone else wants to have a better chance of surviving not just the fight, but what will happen after the fight is over, we need to reach some sort of accommodation with this ahead of time. Because according to the last set of statistics I've seen, we'll need to deal with Reality between 60 and 70 percent of the time, and no less than half the time, that we have to shoot someone in self-defense.

Understand this: In the eyes of the Law, the gun is Lethal Force. Not 'Stopping Force'--Lethal Force. Shoot someone, and it doesn't matter to the Law that you just wanted to stop them; you have still employed Lethal Force. Deliberately shoot to wound, it won't matter; you have still employed Lethal Force. (Shooting to wound isn't guaranteed to just wound, either; people regularly die after being wounded in the arms or legs.)

You don't have to like it. You just have to acknowledge it.

Reality appears in its purest form when we contemplate the defense of someone else, particularly someone we don't know, who is under threat of death. I'm betting it will be easier, in the heat of the moment, to kill in our own defense, or the defense of family and friends, than in the defense of a stranger, especially an adult stranger.

Consider this situation, which was raised by another member of the USCCA forum a few months ago:

You are shopping inside a store, out of sight of the front counter/register, when a robbery starts. You move cautiously until you can see the robber, standing with a gun pointed directly at the head of the cashier. He is completely unaware of you behind him. You are armed, and you have an ideal position and time for a precisely aimed shot into the back of the robber's head. In most states, the conditions for lethal-force employment are satisfied. The question was not could you, legally, take the shot without warning the robber (though in some areas it is not legal to do so; you must check laws in your area to be sure); it was, would you take the shot without warning?

The issues involved here (once legal questions are set aside) are mental, emotional, philosophical, even cultural. They are wrapped up in this question: To save someone you don't know, can you see yourself shooting someone in the back of the head without warning?

Don't toss it off as something that is unlikely to be required of you. There was a recent incident, a daylight robbery at a crowded Burger King, where a CCW holder had close to that choice. And consider: If you can't work out your answer to this, a worst-case kind of decision, are you going to be sure you can pull the trigger in lesser cases when things are more clear and immediate?

Some who read this have already done this, or something similar, or have been about to do so in the past. They can answer in the affirmative quickly. Before any of the rest of you snap off a 'Hell, yes! I could do that!' response, I need you to do a visualization--a formal, studied, hard-core visualization:

Isolate everything except the Guy With Gun (hereafter referred to as GWG), the person he is pointing his gun at, and you. Assume everything is legally in place for purposes of the visualization. If you chose to pull the trigger, you have the law behind you in this specific case. So:

The base of GWG's skull, say ten feet in front of you, sights of your weapon right on the 'spot'. Trigger pressure, sound of shot breaking, recoil, recovery, back on. Shot is on--you may see a hole where it hit. Likely GWG falls pretty much straight down, just collapses in a heap. You'll follow him down with your weapon just in case a follow-up is needed.

You will begin to notice other things: The spray of bones, blood, and brain matter from where the round exited, maybe spattering the original target, who is looking very dazed and maybe beginning to moan or groan or scream. Checking GWG, you'll notice the larger, ragged hole approximately where the nose used to be. Blood will be running, maybe spraying, out, and beginning to pool on the floor under his head. His eyes, if they haven't been ruptured or even blown out by the shot, will be open and empty.

He will be dead, and you will have killed him.

You will have been in the right to do so, given the situation as described and as I have isolated it, within the visualization.

Can you do this without warning?

Can you?

Some of us, despite everything that is on our side in this, will want and need to issue a warning before they fire. Part of the urge to warn is based on the hours and hours of stories, of movies, of TV, where good guys face their battles directly. Want to or not, we absorb this a bit as we go along. Part of the urge to warn is based on parents and teachers and guidance/authority figures teaching us how to get along with others and 'play fair' and be polite and to give others a chance. (Not a bad thing in general, you know--I like getting along with people, myself. It does get in the way sometimes, though.) Part of it is a lot of people we encounter as we grow up who don't have the correct idea of when and how to do violence--the, "violence never solved anything" group.

There's probably some other influences involved too. My point is, they all come together so that a lot of us, like it or not, admit it to ourselves or others or not, want to or not, aren't comfortable with the idea of killing someone in a calculated manner like this.

This discomfort may not be such a bad thing, I think. Millions of people who were not at all uncomfortable with this could make for a pretty hairy societal environment, don't you think? I for one do not want a lot of people running around who get happy about the thought of killing someone, whether necessary or (especially) not. I prefer that the vast majority of us have some compunctions where this idea is concerned. I think it's better that way for everybody.

Nonetheless, sometimes it's not good for us to hesitate. This may be one of those situations.

So, first, before you consider specific actions and tactics, make sure you can pull that trigger if you decide at that moment that it is necessary and best to do so. Then, you can go over what and when.

But first, determine and decide that YOU WILL.

Otherwise, the rest will not matter.

And let some of us be honest: There are those who simply cannot contemplate such a no-warning shot. Understand this: You are not cowards, you are not stupid, you are not wrong for being like this. You are, rather, who you are, and only and completely that.

As long as you are honest about this, I will support and defend you and your right and honesty in making that decision, whether I agree with it or not.

If you are one who must make the warning, though, then make sure you a) understand that fully and b) get your tactical and technique ducks in a row right now. It's important that you do so ahead of time.

Good luck to you all in this. Conditioning yourself to such a calculated shot is not as easy as some, maybe most, of us think it is.

But if I'm the one at the wrong end of GWG's gun, I'm going to be praying hard that you've done it.

Besides the general need to avoid hesitation about pulling the trigger when the need is upon you, there is another reason to acknowledge Reality and come to whatever terms you can with it. In the aftermath of a shooting incident, especially one in which one or more of the attackers are killed, you will need as much of an internal 'edge' as you can get to avoid saying the wrong things at the wrong time to the wrong people. You will be confused enough, stressed enough, trying hard enough to limit your responses to what is needed to keep you from being judged the wrong way, without the added strain that would come from having given no thought and made no preparation to meet the idea that you have, unwillingly as it was, killed another person. Others who have not thought this through (as much as it could be) ahead of time have said things they didn't mean to say, letting the strain of death at their hands overtake them, and those words have been very hard in most cases to take back. In some cases, those un-thought, un-considered words have not been retrieved and have put otherwise good people who did the right thing into prison.

Think about it now. Do what you can to avoid the peril of not thinking about it later.

Now there is the question of how: How do you prepare to face Reality? Is there anything, technique or mechanism, short of joining the military and taking their training, that might help us avoid fatal hesitation and confusion in the time that may come?

There may be other mechanisms that will work; I can suggest two that might help you, but can't guarantee that they will. (Not sure that anybody can, actually.)

As a foundation to any other techniques you might try, get very familiar with the laws in your state and area that govern the introduction and employment of lethal force. This is one of the things--personal beliefs and personal morals will be others--that will help you make the decision to produce the weapon and then to fire. It may not help you much to know that the law is on your side, but it should help some. And some help is better than no help at all.

That done, I believe one thing you should do is to put yourself on automatic pilot as much as possible. The decision to produce the weapon and then to open fire must be conscious (as much as possible within the constraints of the situation you find yourself in), but after that the fight and how you conduct it should be as automatic as possible until it is over. You make things automatic through continued training and practice and education, through the answer of 'what-if' questions that you ask yourself in spare moments, and through the second method of conditioning that I will suggest to help you handle Reality--focused visualization.

Focused visualization is not another what-if, neither is it a casually-attended-to daydream. It is more than a mind's-eye picture; done well it is a mind's vision, hearing, touch, smell, and maybe taste event. It is possible with a little effort to generate a detailed-enough image within your mind that your emotions are affected. That is the goal. You want to produce a complete picture of the fight from start to finish and some into the aftermath of it, and you want to guide yourself through the reactions you have and the actions you take following the fight in your mind so that, if ever it comes for real, something in your mind will say to itself 'I have been near to this', and so will not panic and drive you the wrong way. Focused, self-guided visualization of this nature is an accepted tool with a long history of helping people at all levels of many kinds of activity develop their skills and temper their responses to stress, and I believe that it can be used to help us deal with Reality as well.

So there it is. The Reality as I see it, and some ideas to help you deal with the Reality if it ever comes to you.

I hope it never comes to you.

But if it does, I hope you've given it some thought ahead of time. I believe it will be at least a little easier for you if you have.

Good luck.



  
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2009, 11:44:10 AM »
William. Generally I am in total agreement with you and support you theory here but as I have said several times in the past I owned two high dollar, allegedly cream of the crop handguns that were both trash.  By the same token, I have a Polish P-64 Makorov,   $129. out the door, after approximately 1200 rounds she has never missed a beat.

I carry the P-64 on occasion but usually refine my carry to either a Sig 239 in .357 Sig, a model 60 Smith or a model 649 both in a .357.  All are equipped with CT grips.

I think one should use a lot of common sense in selecting a CCW, but price should not necessarily be the determining factor! 

In my opinion, the best CCW for you is what you are most proficient, and feel the most comfortable with regardless of purchase price...............just pray you never have to use it.

Offline bilmac

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2009, 01:20:48 PM »
I'm with Rockabilly. Price has little to do with function. After hundreds of thousands of rounds through K and L frame S&Ws I know they work. I could never trust any autoloader like I do the Smiths because I just won't be on this here ol earth to shoot one of them as much as I have the 6 shooters. I don't know how you could spend $1500 on a revolver and make it any better.

Offline S.S.

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2009, 03:38:07 PM »
I am sure everyone here would love to have a $1,500.00
decked out "Race Gun", but finances simply do not allow this.
On a lot of other websites, one gets talked down to if they
do not own the top of the line of everything, but I am in complete
disagreement on this. It all comes down to what people "think"
a good gun is. I think SIG handguns have the worst triggers on
the market and they are high dollar guns! I think that most weapons built
on an AR platform are junk. So who is to judge what a good firearm is?
The goto gun for things that go bump in the night around me is getting close
to 100 years old! A S&W 1917 in .45 auto rim. I have not felt under gunned yet.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline williamlayton

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 09:52:23 PM »
The opinion is---make sure/be as sure as you can.
Now--and this is just my own anal self talking here--I tend to rotate the weapons I carry. Usually I have two in the vehicle. There is no particular order to this rotation or time of rotation. i just do it when I want.
Most generally--90% of the time--when I rotate I am at the range. I take the old ones out and shoot the shells out of each. The new ones going in are fired at least 50 times before it goes in.
NOW boys, that is anal and I don't care what anybody says  :P.
I have fun doing it that way--it gives me pleasure--.
So, you boys do it your way with whatever you want to do it with.
I have fun doing it my way and the darned ol thing may break just at the time I need it--but I will have tried and I won't go in with a question, "will this thing work?"
The previous post, by Brett, was excellent and should be a must read for all who consider this to be a sport and not a life changeing possibility.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rawhidekid

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 12:12:15 AM »
What some people don't realize is that some of these "cheap" fireams are mil surplus.  What is mil surplus?  Guns that have been isued to and carried by military of one country or another sometimes for years.  They have a track record for working.  The CZ52 came in as a cheap $125.oo gun,(they now are up to $225 at the last gun show.)    They are only poor choices to carry because of the availability of ammo supplied to the public.  You prity much have to roll your own to get a hollow point.  That I think is the main problem with most mil surp is finding hollow points as they were made for FMJ.  The reason the original 1911 would rattle is it was made loose on purpose!  So it would still function if dropped in the mud.  The $1599 race guns 90% of the time will malfunction if dirty.  Have you ever seen guns carried in pockets or anckle holsters after extended carry?  Full of lint and dirt.  Revolvers are not as tight as semis and I believe that is why they are generally more reliable.  I had a police officer brought in a PPK that he said jammed.  I fired 50 rounds through it with one jam, I said that this was not a revolver and it was functioning within tolerance.  He said his Glock never jammed and he wanted his PPK as reliable as his Glock.  I told him to get a revolver for a backup or a Glock 26.  But it is important to remember I have seen broken Glocks and broken revolvers, nothing man made is perfect.  That is why I always have at least one knife on me.
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline BIGDAVE54

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2010, 01:48:40 PM »
Anything beats a rock almost... When I was a kid growing up in the mountains of West Virginia I was always throwing rocks. I won't brag ,but I was the best rock thrower in the little coal camp ..ie. Gilliam Bottom,West Virginia had ever seen. I had the stripes on my bottom some days to prove it too. These days we are not really guaranteed anything when it comes to firearms. What good is the best warantee in the world if you $2000 super dooper magnum fails to function and you end up down and cold on the floor? The way I look at it buying handguns is about always a pig in a poke. If you want 100% reliability break a brick in half and carry the halfs in your front pockets. If I get in a fight to the death I am not ashamed to bust my opponent in the forehead with half a brick...I'll even run over and slam him in the head with the other half after he is down. My point is this...Don't rely on a pig in a poke. Stack your pigs and rely on several pigs in a poke. If you don't feel safe....carry a brick in your pocket. Just make sure you win....and live when the SHTF. You and your families have no choice...you must do what it takes. In the past centuries it was considered a sin not to fight with everything you had to win these type issues. Your life was considered a gift from God Almighty and it was a mortal sin not to defend HIS work. Today it seems many have resigned themselves to giving up and being a nation of cowards. I read this very comment a few months back. Not us...Not today or ever...do what it takes...

Offline Brett

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 05:07:41 AM »
Just make sure you win....and live when the SHTF. You and your families have no choice...you must do what it takes. In the past centuries it was considered a sin not to fight with everything you had to win these type issues. Your life was considered a gift from God Almighty and it was a mortal sin not to defend HIS work. Today it seems many have resigned themselves to giving up and being a nation of cowards. I read this very comment a few months back. Not us...Not today or ever...do what it takes...

This is what it all boils down to.  Good post.
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Offline Hodr

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2010, 10:11:54 AM »
2 years ago I had a 65-5 357 S&W.  After surgery I could no longer handle that.  I bought a 9mm ccw and ran over 1100 rds through it before I was satisfied with realiability.  I then went through a number of shows until I found a 38 S&W.  I am not really sure when it was made but it doesn,t even have a model # on it.  4" bbl, front blade sight, notch rear, 70% or better blue gone or worn, holster wear all over, screws scratched, metal dinged, extra serial# put on by some police(?) department, full hammer, action tight, crane and ejector excellent condition, cylinder lock EXACT, original round butt grips warped.
The guy said $150 and I just gave it to him without haggle.
Took it home  and took it apart, all interior parts very good to excellent.  Took it out to the range and sight was 3" left and 2" low at 25' but always grouped and consistent.  Took it home again and loaded up 500 light 38 special and ordered Hoghe rubber grips.  New grips and down to the range 150 rds later I was through using sights.  after another 60 rds I went home cleaned it up, bought some jhp 158(?) and went to brother in laws.  We loaded 300 normal 38 loads and went out to his ranch range.  Fired 100 reloads and 100 factory without using sights, switched and fired 75 total left hand.  waited for dark and fired another 120 or so at candles 50' away. 
This is my go to defense gun when I am at home.  I have put over 1200 rounds down the barrel, right hand, left hand, day, night.  It is not my concealed carry, it is not a target pistol, it is not pretty, shiny or even good looking.  It is a gun that fits and with which I will not miss at 25 foot without ever needing sights or even arm extension.  That is my definition of a a defensive weapon as a well known tool.  There are a lot of people who would think me overgunned, undergunned and some think I am just paranoid,  my only reply is a six round group in under 5" under any conditions.

blindhari
TANSTAAFL

Offline DDZ

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2010, 11:25:11 AM »
My home defense gun is the one gun I have the most confidence in. That is an Rem. 870 12 gauge, my parents got me when I was 16. Its the only shotgun I have used to hunt with and shoot trap and skeet with since then. I have no idea how many rounds have been through it, but I do know its many. After 36 years its still the only shotgun I use, and I use it for everything, and it still works as well as the day I removed it from the box.
 I never remember one time that it failed to chamber a round or eject a spent case, nor do I ever remember a time when it misfired.  I have three barrels for it, and one being an 18 1/2 cylinder bore that is on it for home defense loaded with #1 buck. I have no need for fancy sights or any other gadgets. I know I can hit what I want to by just pointing it, at in home distances. I also have confidence that if I have to pull the trigger in a defense situation, the gun will do what its supposed to do. I just pray that I never have to use it for this purpose.   
Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.    Wm. Penn

Offline demented

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Re: THIS IS MY OPINION
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2010, 11:23:56 PM »
Who was it said that a handgun was best used to fight your way to a real gun?  Makes sense to me.  My choice for HD guns would probably not be high on anyones list of first line combat weapons.  I keep an old Winchester 94 30-30, an 18" Mossberg 500 12 ga. and one of my K-frame .357 revolvers within  reach at all times.  If things were to escalate, I have several magazine fed rifle to go to in 5.56 (AR-15's) 7.62X51 (FaL's) and even one AK-47.  Handguns I have are 1911's, Browning HiPowers, Smith & Wesson J & K frame .38 and .357 revolvers.  I have less than $800 each in all my guns, some less than half this amount.  All have been tested and retested for reliability, I'd have to say that at this time my weakest weapon is ME.  Since ammunition went so high and reloading components hard to get, I can no longer afford to fire my usual  100-300 handgun and rifle cartridges each week.