Clash for Klunkers

[Casull]

Indeed - I'm pretty sure the traditional hybrids don't use batteries at all, but if the price comes down why does it matter that the batteries wear out?  My current car needs a new set of tires every now and then.  It also occasionally needs new brake pads and shocks.  Replacing worn out things on cars is nothing new.  What matters is that they last long enough  between replacements and that the replacements are of a reasonable cost.  As said, we're not there yet, but I'm confident that we will get there. 

All of those same things will still need replacing on the electrics, ALONG WITH THE BATTERIES.  Besides, if you drive 300 miles a week and get 30 mpg, then at $3 per gallon, you're going to spend about $1,500 a year on gasoline.  Now, if you have to replace a $5,000 set of batteries every 3 or 4 years (which I would expect to be closer to the truth, and possibly generous at that), you will actually spend more to run the hybred (especially considering that we haven't even factored in the electricity to recharge the batteries every day).

[Swampman]

I spend appx. $480 a year on gas an my Toyotas aren't hybrids.  The problem with the Prius is the price of the car to begin with.  My Echo cost $10,000 new and my Yaris cost $13,000 new.  The tires lasted 8 years as did the $80.00 battery.  I haven't done anything else to either beyond changing the oil.

[DDZ]

Swampman, I think your number of 21 billion barrels of oil is a bit low. there may be that much in the ANWR alone. We are not pretty much out of oil as you say. Have you been listening to Al Gore? Just think of the oil that has not been found yet. Oil companies are not going to spend money looking for it if they can't drill for it.

[Swampman]

I found the number on several internet sites.  All of them said even that wouldn't be easy to get.  We are running out of oil.  That's a good thing.

[Dixie Dude]

Even if we weren't running out of oil, we still don't need to import it from the Arabs.  We have so many alternatives that aren't that expensive.  IF the oil companies would put compressors at their service stations to supply natural gas for natural gas vehicles, we would have that alternative.  IF they would build coal gasification plants to make synthetic oil from coal, we have that alternative.  IF we started producing more diesel cars and trucks, we have that alternative to cut way down on imports.  IF the oil companies would build greenhouses to make algae oil, we have that alternative.  IF the government would give tax breaks for these alternatives, they would take off.  NOT give money, but tax CUTs for using these alternatives.  Natural gas vehicles almost took off twice in the late 70's and in the 90's, but the tax cuts ran out or discontinued, and businesses stopped converting.  One enough of them convert, it will stick.  India is making a compressed air hybrid and is to introduce it to the US in a couple of years.  Equipment is cheaper than batteries, and is less expensive to replace.

[Questor]

Swampman:

The Echo and the Yaris are the thinking man's Prius. They cost a lot less and get excellent mileage.

Check what the US Geological Survey has to say about oil reserves in the US. They project over a 100 year supply just from US resources. Likewise, recent discoveries in Brazil and elsewhere have vastly increased the known reserves. The peak oil argument has been shown to be false.

[Brett]

Electric cars do not have to be slugs.  Check out these links.

http://gas2.org/2009/03/25/worlds-fastest-electric-car-is-a-1972-datsun/

http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/


By the way the modified 72' Datsun cost $35,000 with lithium ion batteries.

[95Road King]

I guess for a 2nd car they'd be ok?? Me, I like big engines to pull my camping trailer, or to pull my boat, or to put into 4 wheel drive when hunting!! So I guess when these things really catch on, I'll be punished with sky high fuel prices and any other thing the Lib's can think of!!!! I guess at my age(72) I'm just not with the time's???

Not really the liberals (I always try to avoid shortening to "libs" as it's too easy to confuse with Libertarian, which is a very different group from Liberals ).  Well, aside from tax hikes anyways (which they admittedly do do from time to time).  Mostly though it's just economics.  As with all things price is a function of supply and demand.  With gas demand keeps going up (particularly with other countries like China starting to use more and more of it) and the supply (at least of the raw material that becomes gasoline) has been going down ever since we figured out it could make a piston move .

The 1900's were when we won the gasoline lottery.  We had so much of it we didn't know what to do with it all.  Now we've squandered so much of it away and we're realizing that hey - there will come a time in the not TOO distant future when at our current consumption rates it'll be all gone. 

Adjusting to that reality is just something we will need to deal with.  It's something we can do though.  Rather than towing a camper why not go with a tent when camping instead?  Instead of towing a large heavy boat (burning it's own gas) a small kayak or canoe can be used instead.  I have an uncle that does this already.  He fishes out of a small plastic boat with an electric trolling motor mounted on the back that just has foot controls to steer and accelerate.  It works fine for him.  When hunting, rather than needing 4 wheel drive, park on the nearest good road and walk/hike in to your stand rather than driving (hey when I was younger I took a Mustang duck hunting - it was fine parked on the road.  I just strapped on the waders and walked into where I wanted to go ).  Think of it like going on a diet.  The 4x4 is that nice plate of fried chicken, mash and gravy, and coleslaw.  The battery-hybrid is the grilled chicken with steamed green beans and carrots.  Sure the former might be more satisfying, but the latter isn't too bad once you get used to it, and you do what you gotta do .

Point is that while it's not quite here yet, the rising cost and dwindling supply is going to force us as a nation to start cutting back.  Similar example: way back near the turn of the previous century lobsters were generally seen as a junk catch.  You could buy them in stores to use as fish bait, and the people who ate them who regarded as pretty poor backwoods people.  At that time the supply was still good, and the demand was very low, hence low prices and poor people eating lots of them.  Fast forward to today.  People have changed their minds.  Demand of lobsters is now through the roof, and as a result, so is it's price.  Nowadays some poor guy on minimum wage, merely due to market conditions, just has to accept that he isn't going to eat much lobster.  We'll have to soon face a similar reality with our high-horsepower engines.

   I'm not changing my lifestyle to please all the Eco- Weenie Liberals!!

[Questor]

Tesla electrics are cool too. Expensive but cool. Very powerful and fast.

[MGMorden]

I'm not changing my lifestyle to please all the Eco- Weenie Liberals!!

I wasn't talking about the environment.  The gas that we do have we're going to burn through one way or another.  Thinking otherwise is just being naive.  Knowing that fact whatever harm it may or may not do to the environment is somewhat irrelevant - the gas is still going to get burnt.

I was merely talking from an economic standpoint.  You're a bit older so you may not see it, but the price of gas is going to keep going up, and it has nothing to do with "eco-weenie liberals".  Would you change your lifestyle and cut back if gas were $5 per gallon?  $8?  $10?  $25? Trust me, it'll get there.  Not this year, probably not even within the coming decade (well, I'd bet it'll hit $10 near the end of the next decade), but it will get there. 

Like I said, it's going to get burnt one way or another, but once gas is rare enough that it gets to a certain price we're either going to have to either a) work only to feed our engines, b) simply do without, or c) find some alternate option that does *ALMOST* as much stuff but is cheaper and more sustainable.  That's simple reality.  You run out of money you're not visiting the cathouse anymore no matter how bad you want to, and if you run out of gas you're not driving a big gas powered 4x4 anymore either. 

Now, there are certainly other options besides electric (hydrogen fuel cells and such), but they all have their issues too.  Some may work out, some not.  We'll have to see, but gasoline as a fuel is a dead end - one coming up rather quickly. 

[teamnelson]

More on the 72 Datsun EV ... http://www.evalbum.com/35
If you mass produce one of those in the $20K price range, I might get on board.

But you know what else is really economical, lasts a long time with minimal maintenance, has minimal carbon footprint, uses 100% bio-fuel, and actually produces a byproduct that contributes to the development of more of its own fuel? A horse. If we didn't have to be everywhere so darn fast, I'd be okay going back to a cart & buggy for soccer moms. Probably a lot less road fatalities, and it would sure minimize DUI. Spose you could hook a generator up to the spindle if you wanted to charge up your bluetooth XD surround sound DVD theater system for those long rides.

Forgot to mention ... horses have baby horses so you only need to buy the first two and take care of them.

[DDZ]

Electric cars do not have to be slugs.  Check out these links.

http://gas2.org/2009/03/25/worlds-fastest-electric-car-is-a-1972-datsun/

http://gas2.org/2009/03/29/worlds-top-10-fastest-electric-cars/


By the way the modified 72' Datsun cost $35,000 with lithium ion batteries.

Sounds real practical. Fill the trunk and back seat with batteries, and lets see how fast it will go. If they load the front seat up with batteries also, maybe they can even go faster.

40 miles to a full charge sounds really great. Owners of this 35,000 dollar car that drive more than forty miles to work would have to leave pretty early so they can stop and plug their car in.

When I was talking about electric cars not having much horsepower I was comparing apples to apples.   

[mirage1988]

The electric companies have brownouts on hot days when every air conditioner is running, this is what will happen when all the electric cars are plugged in too!

 The next day when all the greenies are trying to call in to work because their electric car is dead resulting in the cellular satellites to be overloaded so they can't call in then they will get fired because the boss finally has just cause as he was tired of the smell of microwaved chicken-scented soy patty and sprout sandwiches on gluten free bread.

[Swampman]

I'm just interested in saving money so I can buy things I like rather than wasting it on making Arabs rich.  The whole planet will be a cinder shortly anyway if you believe what the Bible says.