Truncated Cone Soft Point (TCSP) performance on game

[300grJHP]

A local dealer has great deal on PMC TCSP 44 caliber bullets...they are 240 grain.

I opened the box, and they look like FMJ w/o the top and I would expect them to expand.  The dealer, however, told me that they expand very well.  Does anyone have any experience/opinion of these bullets?  How would they do if I ran them at about 1200 fps?

thank you

[Ak.Hiker]

I think they are designed to knock over steel rams. When shot thru spruce logs they do not expand. They penetrate about the same as a full power handloaded Sierra 250 grain FPJ. They will offer a lot of penetration or make a good full power practice load.

[freedom475]

They are very poor for game animals because they tend to seperate tissue and penitrate without much tissue damage.. almost no bruising and the hole seemed to close behind the bullet.
A friend and I shot a bear with them once..well; a lot more than once ... Was not impressed at all to say the least....I'd tell the story but someone would probly get upset..LOL. So let's just say they suck for hunting.

I would like to withdraw the above statement because what I was shooting was a full TC and not the SP version.  The boolit was a factory loaded Federal 260gr TC with a very heavy jacket and nickle casings. There was a little exposed lead on the very tip but the jacket extended past the lead core .001 or so. I just looked around and I see that the TCSP looks nothing like the silhouette  cartridge I was shooting...sorry

[COR]

They are very poor for game animals because they tend to seperate tissue and penitrate without much tissue damage.. almost no bruising and the hole seemed to close behind the bullet.
A friend and I shot a bear with them once..well; a lot more than once ... Was not impressed at all to say the least....I'd tell the story but someone would probly get upset..LOL. So let's just say they suck for hunting.

My hunting experience has been quite the opposite.  I got a box with a SBH that was a gift, so I shot them up. I have shot 3 deer (within 50yds) with them and the bullet acted just like my hard cast WFN does.  The shots were all lung shots and the deer went about 30-50yds.  I did recover a bullet from one I shot against the hillside and it was very interesting how it "mushroomed".  The bullet looked like a cylinder with the exposed lead still intact.  The best way to describe it is it lost its ogive and just looked like a big cylinder witha big meplat.  A 44 cal hole in and a 44 cal hole out, just like a hardast will.  I have also shot these into wet paper and dirt and had the same experience with the bullet.  IIRC That factory load does about 1250 out of my 5.5" SBH.  Shot placement is king....all the rest is just angels dancing on pinheads.

[Terbltim]

[/quote]  Shot placement is king....all the rest is just angels dancing on pinheads.
[/quote]

A great big "AY-MEN" for this remark!
Well said by COR.

[safetysheriff]

the book by larry kelly and j.d. jones ''Hnting for Handgunners'' reveals that the truncated cone design, when of proper lead alloy, will penetrate very, Very well.    the SSK bullet molds from some years ago were designed with truncated cones and they penetrated better than swc's.    those truncated cone designs, and the hornady silhouette bullet in 240 gr FMJ' were used by larry kelly and others to take elephant, cape buffalo and alaskan brown bears.  (see page 224 in that book for a pic' of larry kelly and his bear, and the paragraph above identifying Hornady's bullet being used to take it with one shot.....)   j.d. has a chapter on bullets in that book that is very expressive of his ideas and the way his projectiles performed.

that being said, what is the game to be hunted by 300grJHP?    j.d. jones advises jhp's for deer hunting, instead of his big hardcast, truncated cones.   i'd expect that he's right because the jacket will cut tissue as it passes through the deer.   the hardcast bullet will exhibit a non-expanding performance as it passes through the animal probably leading to a longer tracking job in many, many cases.     if bones are hit and become secondary projectiles to devastate the lungs, heart, liver, etc., then the hardcast bullet is helped by those bone fragments.   otherwise the JHP' performs better.


dick metcalf's go anywhere deer hunting bullet was the 210 gr' JHP' in the .44 mag'    i think he and jones agree on what is necessary.

[Lone Star]

  Shot placement is king....all the rest is just angels dancing on pinheads.

Sadly this simply isn't true - just like all over-simplifications it lacks validity.  Statements like this do more damage than good to hunting in general.   Why?  Even with "perfect" shot placement, if you use a bullet that expands too much and limits penetration - the result can be lost game.  Ditto a bullet that penetrates but does insufficient damage to kill quickly.  The bullet has to reach the vitals with enough energy to do enough damage to kill humanely.  

I've had it happen to me, a perfect shot into the brain from the rear - but the bullet ( 200-grain .451") failed to penetrate a few inches of neck muscle.  The deer died in its tracks, but the bullet just barely cracked the skull, I was lucky!  I'd have been better off to have missed a few inches to the left or right and severed the carotid artery - a quick and humane kill shot, but a "miss" from my intended aim point.

If shot placement alone was enough, then we's need nothing more than a .22 LR or a .32 Long to kill deer.  This part of the equation has nothing to do with "angels" or "pinheads" or whatever other cute phrase we want to dredge up.  It has everything to do with the physical properties of the bullets we shoot and the game we hunt.  Improperly match them and shot placement is meaningless....



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edit: typo

[COR]

  Shot placement is king....all the rest is just angels dancing on pinheads.

Sadly this simply isn't true - just like all over-simplifications it lacks validity.  Statements like this do more damage than good to hunting in general.   Why?  Even with "perfect" shot placement, if you use a bullet that expands too much and limits penetration - the result can be lost game.  Ditto a bullet that penetrates but does insufficient damage to kill quickly.  The bullet has to reach the vitals with enough energy to do enough damage to kill humanely.  

I've had it happen to me, a perfect shot into the brain from the rear - but the bullet ( 200-grain .451") failed to penetrate a few inches of neck muscle.  The deer died in its tracks, but the bullet just barely cracked the skull, I was lucky!  I'd have been better off to have missed a few inches to the left or right and severed the carotid artery - a quick and humane kill shot, but a "miss" from my intended aim point.

If shot placement alone was enough, then we's need nothing more than a .22 LR or a .32 Long to kill deer.  This part of the equation has nothing to do with "angels" or "pinheads" or whatever other cute phrase we want to dredge up.  It has everything to do with the physical properties of the bullets we shoot and the game we hunt.  Improperly match them and shot placement is meaningless....



.   
edit: typo

I don't use head shots on deer (or any game other that tree rats), especially when hunting with a handgun nor do I know any handgun hunters who would.  And you are also correct in your assumption that a .22 is more than enough for any deer ( I never tried a .32 long), provided we select and place our shots correctly.  He was very specific in what bullet he had asked about and I have real world hunting experience with the exact load.  It will put a 44 caliber hole in and a 44 caliber hole out and will act like a hardcast will but if you shoot it in the gut it will run for a long time...no bullet is magic.  BTW There was nothing wrong with your bullet if that deer died, you just selected a poor place to put the bullet.  Shot placement is still King and your "perfect shot" in the head is not a responsible shot.......... unless you are jacklighting with said .22.... 

[Tonk]

Gentlemen, I have learned over the many years, that just taking someone's word for this or that is NOT the best route to go, when planing a hunting trip and selecting a particular bullet. Why I don't even take the word of the bullet manufacturer's anymore, since all that crap Barnes put out about their various X bullets some years ago.

Instead, one should test the bullet you plan on using on your hunt etc. I know of know better way to get the exact penetration truth and amount of expansion unless ones does go through a bullet test or two. I myself, start off with a bundle of wet newspaper. This media is tuff on a bullet and gives you a good start what you can expect from the bullet in question. I also use modeling clay but that gets rather expensive and can vary just like geletine blocks

[safetysheriff]

several years ago, from time to time, i'd talk to the guys on the sierra techline.    i think you'd find them reasonable people to speak with.   i did.    anyway, i also think you'd find them speaking about the different performance of their various bullets impacting game.   not all of their projectiles, nor all of Hornady's which I prefer, will act the same.   

there is more to the game of hunting than just shot placement.    if you want a game where only placement counts, then maybe you can have it with punching paper at short distances.   otherwise, God made His creation much more complicated than it would appear to some of us.   

[COR]

The original poster asked about a specific bullet and it's effectiveness on game and I answered him.  If you have an answer for the original poster than chime in....if you want to discuss the fine points of shot placement in deer sized game then PM me or start a new thread.

[safetysheriff]

The original poster asked about a specific bullet and it's effectiveness on game and I answered him.  If you have an answer for the original poster than chime in....if you want to discuss the fine points of shot placement in deer sized game then PM me or start a new thread.

you sound like you're upset; and you sound like you're trying to dictate procedure.    if you are upset, take a 'drink'.   if you're trying to dictate procedure then maybe you ought to check in to another site.   we're having fun............