quality common mans hunting rifle???

[fox fire]

I'm replace'n my get ya by rifles with hopefully good quality guns, so far I've got me a CZ 452 thats gonna be my squirrel rifle and now lookin to get a good made center fire for deer huntin,  used to remington had a good name but I hear a lot comments about the poor quality and them be'n a cheap made gun now day's. 
   Is this reputation deserved?   if so which direction should I start lookin with out havin to see the government about bail out money to purchase this machine,  I dont need a 12-1500 dollar gun just a well made, straight shootin, dependable piece of equipment.

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm may I suggest you cruise the used racks and find something that you like the look and feel of  dependign on what you find you can then should you so wish and that particular make/model is still in production, then look at buying new.

As for Remington, well as it's quite well known on this board  persoanlly I don't like the 700 at all. It feels uncomfortable to me. However I will make a suggestion which may just shock some  but will depend upon your budget  and it's that you take a close look at the auctions sites and consider a Remington 700 Classic  I have a couple of American friends that have just picked a classic in 8x57 apiece. The one who has shot his already managed a 5 shot group of about 1/2"x 7/8" using ahandload of 180 grain Noslers and 4064 powder which gave a chrono reading of 2703fps. The other friend is still awaiting delivery as it has a long way to travel as he lives in the wilds of the Northwest (AK) and he paid $535 shipped for his one. But it seems they go for anywhere from this to $1000 US, they certainly are very nice looking rifles and from what I have seen they seem to shoot well too. Of course it's just a suggestion 

[Graybeard]

I continue to buy Remington rifles primarily and they continue to please me with their performance. Just yesterday I was on my range doing some shooting with four rifles three of which were bone stock Remingtons. Two were Model 700s and one a Model Seven.

I was in the process of working up loads with bullets provided to me by bullet makers for product reviews. All three rifles turn in sub inch groups with several loads. The two .223s were all five shot and the .257 Whby. Magnum was shot as three shot groups as is my policy on big game hunting rifles. Heck I even got the M700 LSS Limited Edition in .257 Whby. Magnum to shoot sub MOA with Barnes bullets. It's the first time I've ever pulled that feat off with Barnes bullets to be honest. It did the same with Nosler PTs as well.

My SPS Varmint .223 put four of five in the same ragged hole using Midsouth Shooter's Supply 55 grain bullets and I feel quite sure the fifth that opened the group to roughly a half inch was my fault as that shot did not feel right when I pulled the trigger. It was not really shot #5 but rather shot #2 in the five shot string.

There is nothing wrong with Remington rifles.

[drdougrx]

Ditto from me....there's nothing wrong with Remi's.

[Smokin Joe]

Check out the Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic. I have two of them (one in stainless). You can't beat 'em for $399.00

[fox fire]

Thanx for the input ya'll,  I hear mention of them be'n cheap made, I suppose ther refeing to stamped out parts instead of the parts be'n machined out but I would guess that most of the manufactures are do'n the same thing in order to keep cost down, but I dont realy know it's just a idea.  
    
Also was curious about the quality of a very well kept older gun (about 20/25 years old) I hear people talkin about how "they dont build them like that anymore", and I would guess ther are trade offs, cheaper ways to build (stamped parts) vs a better (over the years) design that actully works better
  
      As far as the difference between a 700 and a model 7,  is it the internal parts or just the finish ?  
  
 I appreciate your input and time for the questions I post,  Thanx again.

[mannyrock]

  The Remington 700 and the Model 7 are two absolutely different rifles, with totally different receivers.  The Model 7 is not just a shrunk down version of the 700 with cheaper parts.  And, in most cases I see the used Model 7s costing more than the used 700s.

  A used Remington 700 ADL is a great rifle for the money.
 
  The trigger guards on the 700 and (I believe) the Model 7 are not stamped parts.  They are cast aluminum, that are adonized.  Very durable and nice looking.

   You haven't told us what you mean by a "cheap" rifle.  Do you mean $200,  $400,  $600,  $800, or what?   

   For the money, the Remington 700 ADL, or the Howa, or the Stevens 200 series (made by Savage) are the most inexpensive but accurate rifles you can buy.  (I believe the Weatherby refered to in the prior post is actually made by Howa, but I could be wrong.)

Best,

Mannyrock
 

[mjbgalt]

add the marlin xl7 to that list. very nice for the $300 you spend.

the adl i just bought had a plastic trigger guard, first one i have seen.

the vanguards are 100 percent reliable and have never failed me. i had one that only shot the inch and a half of the guarantee but the others have ALL been sub-moa.

yes, howa makes the action, and screws on the barrel, but the barrel is a Krieger Criterion, not a howa barrel.

howa knows what they're doing.

i put vanguards first, best price when you consider what you get, 24" hammer forged barrel, slick feeding action, accuracy guarantee, etc.

savage/stevens next, only because i do not have firsthand knowledge of the marlin accuracy. just played with them in the store.

-Matt

[Graybeard]

Also was curious about the quality of a very well kept older gun (about 20/25 years old) I hear people talkin about how "they dont build them like that anymore",

Today's rifles are more accurate than those from that far back.

[Swampman]

I agree and I wouldn't buy anything but a Remington 700 if I was looking for another bolt action rifle.  Mine are all highly accurate and reliable.

[fox fire]

 Thanx again ya'll,  lotta good info here.     The price range is $5-700,  I'm lookin to buy a good quality gun that I can depend on and pass on to any grand child that mite yake a interest in huntin, I've had less expensive guns that seemed to fall in the catagorey of "ya get what ya pay for",  I paid about $250-350 range and they funtion ok but had ther issues, like I mentioned earlier " I'm lookin to upgrade".
      I found sevral used 700adl and bdl's in the $450-500 range, savage in the $300-400, and I belive both to be worth the cash,   also found the marlin in 243 for $350ish range, it's got a cheap scope that'll need replaced ( it'll do in a rush) synthetic stock and a version of a accutrigger, but no one has any hands on with them yet, but I'm lookin at it.
      The ideal gun will be reliable, have stood the test of time and good after market following, a purty good rifle out of the box, adjust the trigger,a little fine tune'n and its good to go.

[Brithunter]

Also was curious about the quality of a very well kept older gun (about 20/25 years old) I hear people talkin about how "they dont build them like that anymore",

Today's rifles are more accurate than those from that far back.

Sorry GB but I cannot agree with that statement and whilst I cannot comment about Remingtons due to lack of personal experience with them I can comment on BSA and Parker-Hale rifles  .

Then we have records set back before WW2 like Walter Gehmann's 300 Mtr score shot with a Mauser 8mm and fitted with his newly designed sight he later of course designed rifles for Mauser like the Model 66 with it's telescoping bolt to reduce the action length.

Back to BSA who 50 years ago not only cut rifled their barrels but also hand lapped them and that was for their normal production rifles. Something that you will not find today except on specialist rifles and barrel makers.

[Swampman]

The ideal gun will be reliable, have stood the test of time and good after market following, a purty good rifle out of the box, adjust the trigger,a little fine tune'n and its good to go.

The Remington 700 will meet your requirements except you won't need to do anything but put a scope on it.  The X-Mark Pro triggers are great right out of the box and Remingtons are known for their out of the box accuracy.  You can buy a new Model 700ADL with scope already mounted for about $450.00.

[Nobade]

When you buy a rifle, if you have the chance take a look at several and buy the one with the straightest throat. And do not buy one with a plastic stock. Get a wood or thermoset composite stock (Like HS Precision in the case of Remington) that can be bedded. These two little things mean the difference between whether the rifle has much accuracy potential or not. I work on Remingtons every day, and while all of them can be made to be tack drivers, some take a lot more money than others to make them sing. And some don't need anything but a scope mounted properly. I call it the rifle lottery, sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. But you can check the concentricity of the throat with your naked eye and if it's straight you'll most likely end up with a good shooter.

[Graybeard]

Sorry GB but I cannot agree with that statement and whilst I cannot comment about Remingtons due to lack of personal experience with them I can comment on BSA and Parker-Hale rifles .

My comment was in regard to Remington rifles which was I believe the question asked. They just happen to be what I DO HAVE experience with. I've never owned those rifles you mention and have no intentions of doing so.

[30-30man]

There is nothing wrong with the more expensive Remington 700s.  They are very accurate rifles and well made.  The thing that has hurt Remington in the last ten years is that they have tried to compete with Marlin, Mossberg, and Savage by putting out several models of entry level guns.  They are mainly the 710 line in centerfire.  They have done the same thing with the shot guns and the rimfires as well. They were really crappy compared to what the others offered.  They had stamped parts and crappy gritty bolts, and pressed barrels into the receivers. They did shoot real good, but were not the quality the others were offering. Then when sales dropped because of reviews from people that bought them, they changed the stock and gave it a new model number.  This tactic does nothing but ruin a business. People aren't that stupid.  The sad thing is Remington continues to do it.  I don't know why Marlin can put out such outstanding rifles at a good price and Remington can't.  It looks like they would just copy the Xl-7 as they own Marlin now.  They should have never tried to attempt to compete with the lower price segment.  Remington is one of the few US gun makers still in business, and they should do what has kept them in business...They should put quality before price.  All it takes is a few hundred sorry guns and the damage is irreversable.  Marlin has never done this and it has worked for them.

[Swampman]

Remington should have continued making the 788.  It was more accurate than all of the above mentioned and offered in some great calibers.

[mannyrock]

Foxfire,

  Well, for goodness sakes!  If you are willing to spend $700 for a rifle, then you are certainly not talking about cheap, bargain, rifles.  You are talking about a really nice rifle.

  The rifles made by most of the major manufacturers, in this price range, are really good rifles, really well made, and generally very accurate.

  You need to go back to the drawing board, and consider the following new bolt actions (no particular order):

  1.  Remington 700s.

  2.  CZ.

  3.  Ruger Mark IIs.

  4.  Remington Model 7s.

  5.  Weatherbys.

  6.  Browning bolt actions.
 
  7.  Savage 110 series.

  8.  Tikka.

  9.  Marlin
 
  All of these are very good rifles, that will easily be passed down to your grandchildren.   Go and handle them all, and pick out the one that feels the best to you.

  If you prefer a .30-30 or a .35 Remington or a .45-70, then go buy a brand new Marlin lever action, for about $450 to $550.  (This is a no brainer)

  Being the old coots that we are, we thought you were trying to buy an old used rifle for $300 or so, and work on it long and hard to try to make it a tack driver.

Regards,

Mannyrock

 
 

[gunnut69]

Guys GUYS!!! you'd think thing this a Remington site! The 700 action is a really good choice but I still buy Winchesters.. None of the new ones but most of the older versions.. Bought a push feed M70 in 243 for $300+ a bit.. It is a fine rifle. Stock was cracked but that's fixed .. I much prefer the safety and the flat battomed receiver..(really just old and set in my ways).. but when the M70 is on safe it can't fire and it can be unloaded without placing the safety in the off position.. As to the others.. The Howa built guns are well bjuilt and most shoot very well..The ruger MKII has a miserable trigger, They can be replaced but?? The Savage is a really great shooter but mainly because of the good barrels and great headspacing setup..  The CZ's are great shooters and I would buy one in a minute, they may be my new favorites... MKV's are fine rifles but some have real accuracy problems..and I have issues with short lift actions.. The rest I have insufficient info on.. I do have a Browning and it was the finicky'est 22-250 I have ever owned.. Would shoot anything worth a hoot,,until I tried the 55 grain PLHP HP's from remington. Became a very reliable shooter, with that load.. I buy mostly older rifles.. as I can buy more of them and the quality isn't getting any better.. and materials ARE getting cheaper.. The higher grade 800's are good shooters but I've seen M700's with scored chambers returned.. Not poor quality control,,no quality control.. They never even looked at it.. Friend bought a 22-250 NIB with no crown, and a sear spring behind the ejector..it of course didn't eject.. Good luck ..

[mannyrock]

  The problem with the post 64 Winchester Model 70s, made in the 1960s and 1970s, was that the quality ran anywhere from being excellent to being total junk.  So, you really kinda have to know what you are doing when you buy one of these, and I'm not sure that Foxfire has that type of experience.
 
 Ruger 77, yea you need to have a new trigger installed. No big deal.

 Remington 700, yea occasionally a bad one gets out of the factory.  Send it back to Remington.  This is a risk with all brands of rifles.

  Again, however, I recommend a used Model 700ADL, made in the 1980s.  For the money, a great buy.

Mannyrock

[Oldshooter]

You mean this aint a Remington site!

There may be other good rifles out there but i personally like my 40 year old Rem 700

[gunnut69]

Whoa guys, don't break out the pillory just yet.. I love them old Remingtons and own a heck of a bunch of them. It's jsut that I've worked on a lot of guns and view all of them from that experience. The M70 had it's ups and downs but other than a period from 1964 until 1973(?) when they were made without the anti bind lug theres no real engineering reason for problems.. The stocks were atrocious as were many others of the period. With the Remington M700 an exception. The stamped checkering is pretty poor but that can be converted fairly easy to cut checkering and the design feels good to me. The 788 was a favorite of mine and I owned several over the years. The first rifle I ever bought new was a 788 in 243. The sycamore stock was fairly heavy but with good loads it killed a lot of deer and coyote.. after the problems were fixed. Sycamore likes water and mores a lot when it gets damp.. The rifle shot great but changed where it shot each weekend. It got bedded with embedded aluminum rods and stopped moving all together.. As the barrel started to get a bit weak, too many rounds??, it was stolen along with many others.. The trigger had to be worked over(they were nat adjustable) and the butt plate was replaced(hate plastic) with a rubber Pachmeyer.. It also became my first checkering job.. But I still prefer the M70..You really should watch them a bit but even the bad ones are good with adjustable trigger, sturdy and simple and easily kept clean. The pre 64 guns tend to be the least straight but the mnost valuable. All will likely shoot better than I.

[30-30man]

The Marlin xl-7 is the best bang for the buck....It comes with an adjustable trigger, target crown, and most can do MOA right out of the box. I saw a brand new right out of the box have a scope mounted at the range and bore sighted.  After that, it would do five shots in 3/4-1" at 100 yards.  I believe it was a 270 shooting Federal cheap power points. I'm buying one for brother in 30-06 for Christmas. They do this for less than 400 bucks.  The only other company that builds anything close to this price for the rifle you get is Savage.

[Rangr44]

1)  You like your CZ-452

2)  You have a centerfire rifle budget of $500-700.

(1) + (2) = (3) Buy a CZ-550 in the chambering of your choice, along with some Burris/CZ rings (50% the cost of CZ rings, 2x the quality).



The CZ is a modified Mauser 98 boltgun, with a single-set trigger and built-in receiver scope mounting dovetails in walnut stocks.

.

[Empty Quiver]

Tikka t3 blue w/ wood $600. You will never need to apoligize to anyone about looks or performance. The barrels and action are mfg. on same line as SAKO rifles costing about twice as much. After doing the homework it's hard to argue against Tikka. No need to replace a trigger either, excellent bone stock, adjustable as well. Dovetail scope base needs Tikka style rings, though it is tapped for regular bases as well.

Not a thing wrong with CZ 550 either for that matter. 

[fox fire]

 Dont get me wrong ya'll, I aint a rem. nut it's just theve got a lotta after market support but I've heard all the rumors and didnt know the real deal, so this is wher all this comes from, I just want the best bang for my buck,  I dont care to pay for quality if it's real and not ridin on a brand name.
   I've looked at the t3's and ther nice sur nuff, the local big name outdoor store has them witth the scope ring for less than $500,aint bad at all. 
   I've found a .223 CZ (babied but used) for $495, The single set trigger is a nice touch from a manufacture,serious good trigger rite out of the box and it's a CZ, .223 would make a good gun, only thing is it's got a synthetic stock that I aint crazy over, it come with a factory 3 round flush designed clip and I dont know if a larger capacity clip is available but It is a seriuos contender in my little race.  ( oh yea, wher did you find that CZ550 for $500ish, only one I found was crowding $800 for a .243, but it was sweet.)

[Swampman]

I have a new CZ452 and I wouldn't buy another CZ.  It has major issues.

[fox fire]

  If ya dont mind me askin,  like what kinda of problems???

[mcwoodduck]

What Caliber are you thing of getting?
I own,
Remingtons,
Rugers,
CZ's,
Sako,
Marlin,
Mauser
and Win
Center fire hunting rifles.
All are good, work well  You could not go wrong with any of them.
Some work better than others in the caliber calibers that are short for the action.
Some of the Remington quality issues were on the 770 line of rifles.  Some loved them others..... Not so much.  My friend hated his.
I never had a problem when I shot it.  I think he just wanted to talk his wife into letting him get a new rifle.
i think you should find the one that you like in a caliber you want, put good glass on it (if you want glass) Weaver, Leupold, nikon, bushnell or other you want and it will do everything you want of it.  I would stay in the 3-9X40 scope for general big game.

[mjbgalt]

i have to add that i bought my first 2-7x33 scope and i won't be going back to 3-9x40 again.

wow is this so much lighter and simpler. can mount it low and the eye relief on the bushnell legend is amazing.

for a varmint rifle i prefer a 4-12x40 but a deer-type rifle, the 2-7x33 is the way to go, for me.