quality common mans hunting rifle???

[Brithunter]

  If ya dont mind me askin,  like what kinda of problems???

You can find the saga under rings for a new 452 in rimfire section. Although I would like to think swampy has enough knowlegde and experience I cannot get over the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that it's operator error and not gun error  Most folks with a new rifle that is having "issues" would take it back to the place they brought it and or send it to the importers/manufacturers. Swampman does not seem to have done either and you can bet your bottom doller he would have if it was one of his beloved Remingtons 

I have already posted on the other thread that I feel that a lot of his problems are with the ammo as I have never had any darned luck with CCI Mini Mags and have yet to personally see any rifle shoot them with any reasonable accuracy and it don't matter how fast the bullet is going as it whizzes past the quarry  The new CCI velocitors are the best hyper velocity .22 lr ammo that I have used or seen shot so i have a few boxes of them in stock and even sighted a rifle in for them.

If'n it turns out that Swampman is right and he has a CZ452 lemon then it's the first that I have ever heard of  and I know of lots of people who depend on the CZ 452 for their pest control and rabbiting in fact it's about the most popular rifle for said use here in the UK and most have had the barrels cut back and are threaded for sound moderators.

[Doug B.]

 I've found a .223 CZ (babied but used) for $495, The single set trigger is a nice touch from a manufacture,serious good trigger rite out of the box and it's a CZ, .223 would make a good gun, only thing is it's got a synthetic stock that I aint crazy over, it come with a factory 3 round flush designed clip and I dont know if a larger capacity clip is available but It is a seriuos contender in my little race.  ( oh yea, wher did you find that CZ550 for $500ish, only one I found was crowding $800 for a .243, but it was sweet.)

I would look for a larger caliber, minimum a .243 if you are looking for a deer rifle.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm the only drawback to 33 mm scopes is that they cannot transmit as much light as a larger scope  and yes I do have some similar sized scopes  in fact I have three Pecar 3-7 x35 scopes, a M8 Compact Leupold 4x and a 2.5-8 Vari Cross 111.

I have to agree that a lot of rifles are "overpowered" by the large scopes folks fit. They just look and quite often are ungainly  I have just taken off a 50mm objective varible from my .22 rabbiting rifle and it now has a straight 4x40 scope and it feels much better  . However for deer stalking in the woods or first and last light a 6x42 or the 7x50 that's on one rifle is better as they are brighter. It then comes down to reticles and can you see them  .

[Swampman]

  If ya dont mind me askin,  like what kinda of problems???

The first round usually goes off.  It usually picks up the second round from the magazine but it won't fire.  The trigger will pull all the way through but the second round won't go off nor extract.  You have to use a pocket knife to get it out of the chamber.  Then you repeat the process again.  A $400.00 .22 rifle should work IMO.

[Graybeard]

I have already posted on the other thread that I feel that a lot of his problems are with the ammo as I have never had any darned luck with CCI Mini Mags and have yet to personally see any rifle shoot them with any reasonable accuracy

Once again you and I have VASTLY different experiences witht he same item. I've yet to see a rimfire rifle or handgun that failed to shoot CCI Mini Mag HPs accurately. In fact it is usually one of the most accurate in all the guns I try it in. I once owned one of the original Weatherby XXII semiautos that shot them superbly. I fired a fairly rapid fire 15 shot group at around 30 yards once propped across the hull of my vehicle that was one ragged hole easily covered by a dime. No great feat had it been a solid bench and slow fire but for rapid fire more or less field position shooting it was quite nice I felt. Me and that rifle with CCI Mini Mag HPs won many a trophy in NRA Metallic silhouette shooting matches around the state.

CCI Mini Mag HPs are my "go to" load in all rimfires to assure they shoot well. Maybe you guys overseas get the rejects or maybe they stay down in a wet cargo hold on ships on the way to you but over here we get the good stuff.

[mannyrock]

MJB,
   
  My experience is the same.  I hunted with a 3x9 for many many years. Then, I switched to a Leupold Vari-X III  2x7 compact.   Wow, what a difference!  Much lighter, much trimmer, much quicker, more compact.

    I found that east of the Mississippi, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to have a 9 power scope on a big game rifle.  But, given the fact that it is very common to have a deer step out in front of you along a woodline, or stroll by your deerstand in heavy woods, there are lots of reasons to have a 2 power option on your scope.

    Prior to the variable craze that took hold in the late 1960s, most experienced hunters easily killed game with 4 power fixed scopes east of the Mississippi, and 6 power fixed scopes west of the Mississippi, for about 40 years.


  Regards,

  Mannyrock

[mannyrock]

Hey Fox Fire,

   It seems from your posts on this thread, and other threads that you have on the boards, that you were pretty interested in getting a new Remington 700,  but are leary because of the reports of quality problems.  (And yes, there have been some during the past 10 years or so.)

  That's OK.  If you can't get comfortable with it, then just don't buy one.  There are about 8 other good brands to choose from, which we have listed out for you.  In all honesty, we can't sit here in good conscience and make comforting assurances to you that if you buy a new Remington, you won't get the occassional bad rifle.

  If you buy a Remington, you are not paying extra for a brand name.  The Remington name is not regarded as an excellent brand when it comes to rifles, just a pretty good one. 

   It would seem to me that the most consistently trouble free, out of the box, reasonably accurate rifles today are the Savage, the Tikka, the Howa, and the Weatherby Vanguards.  So, if that's your main concern, then just buy one of them.

  Hey, . . . its just a little $700 machine.  It's not a legacy.  :-)

Best,

Mannyrock 
   

[Swampman]

I use 3-9X40s on my bolt guns and 2-7X32 or 33s on most everything else.  For leveractions the Bushnell Banner 1.5X4.5X32 is one of my favorites.  The Nikon Prostaff is rapidly becoming my favorite and I have several of them.  Good variables are much cheaper and more useful than fixed power scopes.

[Swampman]

If you buy a Remington, you are not paying extra for a brand name.  The Remington name is not regarded as an excellent brand when it comes to rifles, just a pretty good one. 

   It would seem to me that the most consistently trouble free, out of the box, reasonably accurate rifles today are the Savage, the Tikka, the Howa, and the Weatherby Vanguards.

These are completely false statements.

These brands are not even close to Remingtin in quality, looks, or accuracy.

[mannyrock]

 Your opinions Swampy.  However, the facts don't support you. :-) 

 And, according to you, the solution to every conceivable rifle problem is to buy a Remington 700, which you believe to be the finest rifle ever made, when it is not.  It is a very good rifle though.  I have owned several.  :-)

  Swampy, I'm glad that you find such happiness in the Remingtons.

Mannyrock

[Brithunter]

I have already posted on the other thread that I feel that a lot of his problems are with the ammo as I have never had any darned luck with CCI Mini Mags and have yet to personally see any rifle shoot them with any reasonable accuracy

Once again you and I have VASTLY different experiences witht he same item. I've yet to see a rimfire rifle or handgun that failed to shoot CCI Mini Mag HPs accurately. In fact it is usually one of the most accurate in all the guns I try it in. I once owned one of the original Weatherby XXII semiautos that shot them superbly. I fired a fairly rapid fire 15 shot group at around 30 yards once propped across the hull of my vehicle that was one ragged hole easily covered by a dime. No great feat had it been a solid bench and slow fire but for rapid fire more or less field position shooting it was quite nice I felt. Me and that rifle with CCI Mini Mag HPs won many a trophy in NRA Metallic silhouette shooting matches around the state.

CCI Mini Mag HPs are my "go to" load in all rimfires to assure they shoot well. Maybe you guys overseas get the rejects or maybe they stay down in a wet cargo hold on ships on the way to you but over here we get the good stuff.

GB I have no idea why they should shoot so poorly but as I said on the other post the club I used to belong to held an annual 200 yars shoot for .22 LR's and to my knowledge it was never won using Mini Mags even though lots wasted their money buying them expecting it to help them win. One year it was won using normal velocity ammo and the shooter using an Erma M1 copy. I have tried Winchester Lazer, Remington Yellow Jackets and Mini Mags yet the only Hyper Velocity ammo to shoot even fairly well through any of the rifles I have tried it in is the new Velocitors also from CCI and no I have no idea why. It was a friend who told me about the velocitors and let me try some when we were using an indoor 100 meter tunnel range and they grouped into about 1 3/4" from a rest.

[mcwoodduck]

Gentlemen,
The difference between any of the production rifles is very marginal and all will outshoot the shooter.
I think the savage rifles are ugly, but I have always heard that they are the most out of the box accurate.
Others will tell you the M700 was build for bench rest shooters.
All will be deer hunting accurate.
PS.  the Weatherby Vanguard is a Howa 1500.  So were the S&W 1500 rifles of the 80's.
Again I ask.
What do you want as a caliber,  What do you want as materials?  Stainless/ Blue- Synthetic/ Wood.
How heavy?  My M700V in 308 is a great rifle but tipping the scale at over 9.5 pounds it is a little heavy for long walk hunts.  But the heavy gun works well for me out of a blind over a long field.
My Ruger M77 in 308 at 7.5 pounds is perfect for long walks and short to medium shots.
Also what range are your big game animals shot?  100 yards, 75, 50 or <50.  and what kind of hunting.
Less than 50 and a blunderbuss will be accurate enough to kill deer sized animals.

[Graybeard]

CCI Mini Mags is NOT a Hyper Velocity ammo tho that does seem to be a common myth. It's just standard high velocity and is no faster or slower than any other high velocity as opposed to standard velocity or target ammo.

The CCI Stinger is and is the original hyper velocity ammo.

[Swampman]

 Your opinions Swampy.  However, the facts don't support you. :-) 

 And, according to you, the solution to every conceivable rifle problem is to buy a Remington 700, which you believe to be the finest rifle ever made, when it is not.  It is a very good rifle though.  I have owned several.  :-)

  Swampy, I'm glad that you find such happiness in the Remingtons.

Mannyrock

I don't think the 700 is the finest.  I do know it's the best selling and most accurate production centerfire rifle in the world.  I'm not interested in cheap foreign made knock-offs.  The Savage makes my eyes hurt and is so cheaply made that I'm not interested.  The facts do support my claims and my opinions don't matter.

[Brithunter]

Ahhh Thank you GB for pointing that out  it's a long while since I tried it now and I had completely forgotten about the Stingers  I have also thought about your shipping comment and wonder about it. My normal to go hunting ammo was Winchester Sun Sonic (Blue Box now) and that's made in Australia so? I was advised to try RWS Subs but I am not as happy with their grouping as I am with the Winchesters so am going back to them again when I can get some more of them that is 

[torpedoman]

accurate out of the box= just go get a SAVAGE

[fox fire]

  What I wanted to find out was if the remington quality rumors were true, i've heard that the parts were stamped instead of being machined,  and figured that some of the resident gun smiths, compitition shooters,and hunters my have some insight to offer.                      Also thought maybe somone could piont me in the right direction to a manufacture that offered guns that were still machined  or was built any better than the rest, from what I'm to gather ther for the most part just pickin your favorite flavor,     I honestly believe that most manufactures build a good "off the shelf gun", it's all in what you consider good I guess.
 
    As far as what I'm hunting,,,deer and coyote top the list, so a .243 should be fine but I'm gonna look into the barrel burning issue,   and the distance will be as close as I can get out to sevral hundred yards.     
    With this being said any thing from a 30-06, 308, something easy to find ammo for and time tested,   wouldnt mind going with a .223, it will work ok for yotes, a cheap shoot and I wouldnt think twice about shooting a deer in the head if the range was appropriate,    so ther ya go.

[bill439]

Well for me It has got to be a good ole 98 mauser better than most of the stuff mentioned.  Parts will be around for the next 400yrs.  You can find any stopping point of cost from 100 bucks up and I do mean UP !
Any good used 98 should find a place in anyone's gun rack.  Bill439

[Swampman]

Not very accurate but they do go bang.

[mcwoodduck]

Off a sand bag on a bench.
With everything being equal.
All of the commercial Brands will
OUT PROFORM the shooter.
Add into that the difference in ammo(is the bullet exactly 150 grains, is the load exactly 70 grains of powder, and does each primer have exactly the same amount of spark), wind gusts, and other factors will open up your group in a mounted vice at 100 yards.
Out to 150 Most rifles with factory ammo will print a 2" group from most shooters.  That is minute of DEER or Coyote.

If you are looking for a 223.  Little light for Deer, but have seen them killed with 22 hornet.
I have a CZ-527 M1 American and a Remington 700 SPS in a Kevlar stock.
Out to 100 yards.  they are even with the same ammo.  When you get out to 200 yards the Remington is a little more accurate but it out weighs the CZ by 4 pounds.  I think the weight of the rifle has more to do with the accuracy out that far, at least with me, than does the maker.   Oh yea the CZ wears a 3-9X38 Weaver scope and the Rem wears a 6-24X42AO scope.  With more than 2X the power may also have something to do with being able to hit the cap of a 1 liter soda bottle with the rem rather than the bottel at 200 yards.
I am sure the 527 Kevlar Varmint would run neck and neck. Weighing in at 11 pounds the 700 SPS is a little heavy to drag around the woods and since the action is a short action the shorter 223 round takes some time to line up in the mag.  Especally when in your arms.  Easier on a bench.
With the Detachable mag in the CZ it is a no fuss not muss to load the gun.

[Brithunter]

Not very accurate but they do go bang.

Hmmm well now swampman take a look at this:-


Bottom of target is a three shot group using 130 grain Hornady Spire Points from a .308. The top three spread holes circled with black biro were shot using the iron sights and a different load. The rifle a P-H 1100 Lwt and of course is a Mauser 98 action  the rifle is fitted with a period 4x32 Nikko Sterling "Special" scope with Post and cross hair reticle and here is the rifle itself Mauser action and all  :-







Mauser's can be accurate and as far as I aware the rifle is as it came from Parker-Hale's factory except the scope which i put on it.

[Swampman]

They can be but rarely are.

[Spanky]

Mauser actions are great but need to be rebarreled most of the time to be accurate.



Spanky

[Brithunter]

Oh dear I forgot to mention when I got the rifle that the factory finish was worn in a couple of places so I stripped it off and applied an oil finish  so it's no longer quit as it came off the production line..................... sorry about that  .

[hunt-m-up]

Check out the Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic. I have two of them (one in stainless). You can't beat 'em for $399.00

My sentiments exactly on the Weatherby Vanguards. One of mine is wearing a B&C stock and a Timney trigger, but could still make it under your $700 criteria.

[zoner]

I spent last week at my "snowbird" house in Apache Junction,Arizona......went to the local walmart supercenter...they had 3 brand new Weatherby Vanguard rifles on the rack for $350....FWIW

[mannyrock]

  Fox Fire,

     As everyone has told you, $700 wil buy you a nice new rifle, but that dollar amount is less than a new commercial weedwacker costs (Echo).   So really, what do you expect?   All parts to start as solid billets of steel and be custom milled?   Fox, like a lot of us, I think you are harkening back to the 1950s.  :-)   Those days are long gone.  And, maybe its a good thing, cause those were the days when an 8.5 pound rifle (before adding a scope) wasn't considered to be heavy.

    When you are looking at the $700 range of rifles , all of them are going to have stamped parts and aluminum parts (except for certain older mauser 98s, which I find to be danged heavy).  Heck, some of them even have plastic parts (which is where I draw the line.)

    Best,

    Mannyrock



     

     

[fox fire]

  The $700 mark is a high water mark, not what I want spend,  but if ther was someone that had a deal on a serious gun I mite drop that kind of cash.            As far as one manufacture be'n any better than the rest,  bang for the buck it's probably a close race, kind of the ford vs chevy vs dodge it's all in what you like,   I would suppose that all manufactures are try'n to cut cost any wher thay can to stay competative and if it's stamped or polymer as they call it thats what they'll do.       
         I think I'll just buy a sling shot,  any one tell me what manufacture produces the best quality sling shot???

[mcwoodduck]

Are Wrist rockets still made?
If not look in Cabelas website or Bass Pro.

[mannyrock]

Foxfire,

  For the all steel, top grade, milled quality you want, the easy answer is a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester.  It meets all of your requirments, except that you will have to pay about $1,250 for one in used VG condition.  Still, not too bad, considering that you will in fact have a classic, collectible rifle, and it will continue to appreciate in value.

  Otherwise, for the kind of quality and engineering you want, I would again point you to a used Remington Model 700 ADL, made in the late 1970s or during the 1980s.  Now these do have a cast aluminum trigger guard, but you can buy an all steel replacement trigger guard from Brownells, for about $150 bucks.   The total cost would be far less than $700.  I think that you would be very happy with this.

Signing off for good on this one.  :-)
Mannyrock