Author Topic: JUST TO PROVE A POINT  (Read 1021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« on: October 30, 2009, 02:42:24 AM »
This is just to prove a point to some of you folks.
I have purchased a Norinco .45. for $400. I know that the frame is a soft steel.
I have no idea what this thing looks like or the shape it is in---a true pig in a poke.
I want suggestions---though I have some idea about the needs of the gun before I ever see it--- of what you perceive to be the needs of this weapon to make it a good solid and reliable weapon
I will post The cost for the work done and a range report after it is finished.
I am estimating another $400---unless I replace the sights.
What do you think and what would you reccommend?
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline John R.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2009, 03:18:01 AM »
A cylinder & slide hammer and sear, ed brown thumb safety, new set of springs, probably fit a new bushing to it. I would replace the sights if possible.

Offline Bigeasy

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1986
  • Gender: Male
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2009, 04:18:14 AM »
Bill

I am not going to go out on a limb and make reccomendations for change when I have not owned a Norinco 1911.  I will say they had a good reputation in the 1990's, when they were imported, and were popular with gunsmiths building comp. guns because of their all forged construction.  Do a complete strip when you get it, and check it part by part, you may be suprised.

PS - How is the new Bar B Q gun coming?

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline mitch132

  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • Gender: Male
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2009, 06:35:53 AM »
I know that the frame is a soft steel.

I was under the impression that the frame and slide were made of AISI 5100 and were very desirable. Here is a pretty good article on it I found over on The High Road:



"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

Offline SAA

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Gender: Male
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2009, 12:08:36 PM »
Good luck with your Norinco! I have one myself and have handled 4 other Norincos.

They seem to differ a bit in fitting and internal finish, my Norinco had a terrible trigger from factory but I´ve seen others that had much better triggers.
Mine was pretty good on the inside but with a heavy, creapy, trigger pull, sloppy trigger fit, sloppy barrel bushing, a weak recoil spring and very sharp edges on the thumb safety.

My gun came with the black rubber grips and they are not so bad, but the Norincos with brown plastic grips will need a new set of grips imediately.
I believe that the only thing that differs from mil-spec 1911A1 is the threading on the gripscrew bushings.

I decided to do all the work on my Norc myself, I figured if I would screw something up I´d just buy a new aftermarket part (that is the beauty of the 1911, all the aftermarket parts that is avaliable for it).
This is what I´ve bought for it: Fusion firearms 18,5lb recoil spring + barrel bushing + slide stop, Clark 4-leaf sear spring, STI trigger, Wilson Combat flat mainspring housing + sear jig.
I did a trigger job using the original sear, hammer and disconnector, it turned out great. ;D

I have somewhere around 1500 rounds through it, mostly SWC and I have had only 3-4 malfunctions, some from limp-wrist and some magazine related.


Offline Mikey

  • GBO Supporter
  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8734
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2009, 02:20:04 AM »
William:  why don't you just put a couple of hundred rounds through it and then determine what you want to change.  It just might shoot very well for you without major fiddlin'.

I think it is one thing to have race-type guns that shoot tiny groups whenever you want them to but it's something else when you can just take your 'low-end' job and do nearly the same. 

And this way you can tell us about the 'before and after' stuff.  jmtcw.

Offline williamlayton

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15415
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2009, 02:33:22 AM »
I guess the BBQ is coming along fine. I generally don't bother Ed about it and just let him go about his business. he will call me when it's done.

There are a few things I am anal about. I like short GI triggers. I like extended ejectors and i like good ejectors, well tuned. I like good ignitinon systems. I like a beavertail because of my grip. i like 3# triggers and lightened grip safty.
Those things are almost a given---because of my anal disposition---.
Sigts can wait---maybe.
I can, if I choose, do the extended Safety.
I may do the smoothing on the slide--depending.
New bushing.

Heck it may take some lock-up work.

I will shoot it first but those first things i mentioned are going too happen.
Godd discussion. Thanks for the input.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rawhidekid

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 679
  • Gender: Male
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2009, 04:26:16 AM »
The main thing effecting accuracy is usally frame to slide fit,  if it is loose and wiggles you may need to tighten the rails.  It might be fun to have a before target to compare to the after. ;D  The main thing is to have fun with it, happy shooting. :(  As to the soft metal coments,  The Chinese lever action shotguns and 1897 shotguns had a reputation with the Cowboy shooters of metal that required heat treating to be usable.  I never bought one because of this so I can't verifyit.  But that was writen in articles in the Cowboy Guns Magazine. 8)
NRA Life Member, Retired Air Force, Grandfather:   RIA 38 Super, , Vaquaro .357, Golden Boy 39A .22,  54cal GPR, 54 cal Lyman plains pistol, 45 cal Kentucky Rifle perc, 50 cal traditions Hawken Woodsman

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Re: JUST TO PROVE A POINT
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 11:30:43 AM »
I understand where William is coning from. He enjoys taking an "Acceptable" pistol, and making it into an "Exceptional" pistol. It adds pride of ownership to the experience. I hope the next person to own them, can appreciate the true value of such a pistol.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,