Author Topic: shot gun  (Read 5012 times)

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Offline Jim n Iowa

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shot gun
« on: October 16, 2003, 02:11:21 PM »
Chris
My two def. shot gun are really off the shelf items. #1 which has been to Alaska for bear is a 12 gauge 870 trap grade with a 18" rifled slug barrel, loaded at home with #2 shot and odd buck. The other is a 1100 20 gauge with a skeet barrel, loaded with #3 buck. However I am going to have to do some work on the defense as I now have a grandson.
Jim

Offline Savage

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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2003, 08:33:24 AM »
I think any reliable pump or semi auto with a barrel length of 20" or less will do. The only advantage I see to a folding stock is ease of carry, especially in a vehicle. The only add on I see that would be essential, is a good light. I have an 870 with an 18" barrel, extended mag tube, side folding stock and rifle sights. I also have an 1100 with a 20" barrel and synthetic furniture. Either one will do what needs to be done.
Stay Safe,
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Nanook 450

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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2004, 02:58:22 PM »
Took John Farnam's defensive handgun class, he breifly touched on shotguns and recommends a semi-auto - mostly because you could operate one one handed in an emergency.  Have an old Remington 1100 Left Handed with an old cutts compensator.  Always hated the cutts - never shot the shotgun - maybe 6 boxes through it in years.  Bought a shortened barrel with winchokes - put an extended mag tube on, light with a pad on the forearm and an elastic shell holder on the stock.  What a great quail gun!  When not quail hunting - always ready for uninvited guests.

Offline sealer

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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2004, 03:08:01 PM »
the second shotgun that you described is exactly the gun that sets on top of my gunsafe-which is beside my bed. it suits my purpose very well.
dennis
Life's journey is not to arrive safely at the grave with a well preserved body,but to come in-sliding sideways,screaming Holy Cow--- what a ride !!!

Offline MarkJ_Thompson

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Defense...
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2004, 05:14:16 PM »
You guys are going to kick me out of this forum...but I will say it anyway...Mossbergs are not quality weapons. There I said it. Waiting for my verbal attack.

If you plan on using a shotgun for defense and want a modified one purchase one ready to use. You will spend more adding the upgrades than you would buying a new one. The Remington 870, Winchester 1300, & etc can be purchased ready to use in many forms. My latest is an FN Herstal TPS. I also provided these to the local PD. It is based on a Winchester 1300 Action and topped with a C-More Tactical Red-dot. I added a 6-shot SideSaddle (not neccessary holds 8-shots without) & Sling.

Link:  http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_tactical.htm

Another great choice is Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies. They take a Remington 870 and transform it into a lead throwing monster. Not just by adding accessories but recreating the weapon.

Just my opinion...anyone wanting to thrash me for my words against Mossberg may do so... email MarkJ_Thompson@hotmail.com

Offline sealer

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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2004, 09:51:39 PM »
i'll take the mossberg over the win 1300 anyday.
dennis
Life's journey is not to arrive safely at the grave with a well preserved body,but to come in-sliding sideways,screaming Holy Cow--- what a ride !!!

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2004, 06:39:32 AM »
mark, you say a sidesaddle isnt needed because the gun holds 8 rounds, what about load selection such as switching from slug to buck,or to bean bag loads back up your statments with facts why its better

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2004, 07:22:37 AM »
Reliability !!!!!!!

That is the only essential to me.
I prefer something in the 20 or less
inch barrel range though!
I was in law enforcement for many years, and I always
had a Double Barrel 12 Ga. with 20 inch barrels very
close at all times.
With 000 buck loaded and a split second to pull
both triggers, I could have just about as many .36
cal. projectiles headed downrange as a full clip
from an UZI!
A double barrel does not have the "ATTENTION GETTING"
"CLICK-CLICK" of a pump though!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2004, 07:32:14 AM »
Forgot about 1 gun I really Liked !
We had a couple of High Standard Model 10 Bullpups
that I really liked when I was with special weapons!
Built in flashlight, Semi-auto, 8 rounds (extended)
and very fast handling!


That was the most formidable 12 Ga. I have ever seen!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline MarkJ_Thompson

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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2004, 09:13:19 AM »
Quote
DEPUTY Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:39 pm    Post subject:  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
mark, you say a sidesaddle isnt needed because the gun holds 8 rounds, what about load selection such as switching from slug to buck,or to bean bag loads back up your statments with facts why its better
 


I am not a law enforcement officer, so the only reason I installed the SideSaddle on the TPS was to see if it needed any modification to fit properly (and it did need minor modifying). The reason I need to know if it fit properly was I that I was providing one for every police cruiser in the city because the Mossbergs currently in use were literally falling to pieces during range exercises. I have no doubt the Mossberg would last for the average Joe Public but for the man that has to use it as a daily tool, I feel there are better choices. (Remeber it is an opinion.)

SideSaddles are great products to add to a shotgun for the very reasons you stated. My intended use for this shotgun does not include less lethal options or the need for slugs, that was the reason I said I only needed the 8-shot tube. (and the way I sling the weapon the SideSaddle is in my chest when transitioning to my sidearm)

Sorry If I haven't answered all the questions in your replies.

Offline Coydog C.

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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2004, 06:06:18 PM »
I kind of like things simple.

I think that any reliable pump or auto with an 18-20 barrel will do. After meeeting that criteria, it's frosting on the cake.

  I keep a Benelli M1S90 Tactical pistol grip stock, with Ghost Ring night sights, and an Insight M3 tactical light. Its loaded with Federal 2 ¾” # 1 Buck in their standard loading, and another 6 in a buttcuff. With the modified choke, it keeps all 16 pellets in about a 10” pattern at 20 yards. It also patterns the Federal 00 “Tactical” (reduced recoil) very well, but I like the #1 better.

Chuck
"Your Mileage May Vary"

Offline MarkJ_Thompson

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Guess I am an odd one...
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2004, 08:31:45 PM »
Guess I am an odd one. But I don't like to see rough milling marks in my actions ,fragile plastics used around triggers, sights falling off and synthetic buttstocks warping.

The discussion on this post is about defensive shotguns and I would rather have Coydog and his Benelli defending me than someone with a squirrel gun... :-)

Offline Savage

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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2004, 03:27:52 AM »
Mark,
The primary difference between the "squirrel gun" and the full blown defensive shotgun, ie "Scattergun Technologies" is about $1500! The shotgun is not a highly evloved weapons system. The terminal results are the same. I assure you anyone on the receiving end will be hard pressed to tell the difference. I like the bells and whistles too, but the individual with a Winchester 1200 is just as well armed as anyone with a high dollar "Tatical Shotgun"!!!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Coydog C.

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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2004, 06:42:39 AM »
The only features that I’d consider “required” are:

Reliability
Short barrel 18-20”
A light

I used to discount the light, but after working with one, I wouldn’t consider having an HD gun without one. Sights are cool, and add versatility, but aren’t really needed at room distance. However, with a good set of sights the effective range can be stretched out to 100+ yards with slugs (also helps convince your wife it’s a “turkey gun”).

Everything else is a personal preference as is action type. I used to be a big pump fan, and I still own 3 of them, but I found that when layout hunting in either a boat or field blind, I’d short shuck one when shooting in an awkward position. So I started re-looking at autos. After switching to a Benelli SBE 5 years ago, and using it in some harsh waterfowl conditions, I really like the inertia system for its reliability and ease of disassembly. From ducks through Snows I go through about a case and a half of shells a season with my SBE and have never had a misfire. So when I went looking for a HD shotgun, the M1S90 was a natural choice, because I’m used to the design. It has proved itself to be just as reliable as its “big-brother”. Since I’ll never use any of the non-lethal ammo, I’m not worried about cycling it.

It recoils more than a gas gun (IMHO not much though), and it costs more than the average HD gun, so it’s not for everyone, but it will get the job done.

Chuck
"Your Mileage May Vary"

Offline mitchell

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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2004, 07:28:15 AM »
sealer has got it right i have a mossbure 500 a winchester 1300 and a 870 . they are all great but for defense i want to 500!!! the 1300 is a great gun and my favorite with a barnes slug it a good 125yard deer gun.  but i would bet money you could have that mossburg for 30 years pore a bucket of sand on it and it will still fire.  the 1300 i use like a target rifle and would be afraid to let it get dirty .  870 in the midle and is a good gun BUT I JUSTDON'T LIKE REMINGTONS
curiosity killed the cat , but i was lead suspect for a while

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2004, 08:48:58 AM »
I think Winchester actually got it right in 1897-1914
when they put a vented barrel shroud on their
Model 97 and attached a 15 to 17 inch bayonet
to it !  I would put that weapon up against any
that have been mentioned yet in these posts,
and I have Shot Most of them!
I do not like the term TACTICAL attached to
anything that a Civilian is going to use for self-defense.
If you have to defend yourself with it, some %&$# lawer
is going to make you look like a War-Monger!
Plus, the firearms companies have found that The
term TACTICAL adds to the value substantially.
The simple fact is that a $100.00 dollar single shot
will protect you just as well as a $3000.00 custom
"Tactical" semi-auto with a whole lot less parts to break
when you really need them. The home intruder will be just
as neutralized by blast from a NEF shotgun as by a blast
from a Benelli.  Don't get me wrong, There
is nothing wrong with these "Elite" firearms, but most
of the people in this country simply can't afford to purchase
them for home defense. There will be some that will think
"What is your life worth?" Well, It won't matter what gun you
have if you starve to death from not having grocery money
to put food on the table!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Coydog C.

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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2004, 11:54:09 AM »
Quote from: S.Sumner
The simple fact is that a $100.00 dollar single shot
will protect you just as well as a $3000.00 custom "Tactical" semi-auto with a whole lot less parts to break when you really need them.


 :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

Sure, right up until you need that second shot! Then what are you going to do, ask for a time out?



Chuck
"Your Mileage May Vary"

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2004, 05:38:26 AM »
The odds of multiple persons invading your home is very slim,
not unheard of, but very slim.
My point was simple, Most people cannot afford a high dollar weapon!
So Therefore a $100.00 single shot is a whole lot better than a ball bat.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Savage

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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2004, 05:57:48 AM »
S.Summer,
I agree with your point in principal, in that a more expensive shotgun cannot defend you any better than a very basic one. The only thing I would change would be to take that $100 and spend it on a used pump gun like a Mossberg or Stevens/Savage. I don't have any statistics, but seems to me most of the home invasions I hear about envolve two to three subjects. It wouldn't hurt to have more than one shot just in case!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Nanook 450

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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2004, 06:02:49 AM »
A very good friend just put down a Rotwieler (sp) that entered his home and almost mauled his wife and or kids - took three shots.

Offline dmachine

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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2004, 01:48:23 AM »
For a home defence shotgun this is what I have:
Rem. 870 with an 18.5" barrel, black plastic forarm & pistol grip, (a full stock will only get in the way inside a house) heat shield, a Wilson Combat 2 shot ext. tube, 6 shot side saddle, and a Tac-Star light with touch pad. (You can buy the light from Cabelas for $85 and it's the best I'v found for the money, comes with mount & touch pad) I also have a bandolier you can throw over your shoulder with 25 rnds in it of several types. I also have a Speed Feed full stock for it, but hardly ever use it. For in house or up to 30 yards or so, this thing WILL get the job done.

Offline Coydog C.

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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2004, 10:53:41 AM »
Quote from: dmachine
a full stock will only get in the way inside a house


Not necessarily, a pistol-gripped stock can be used with the stock portion tucked under your arm. In that mode it’s about as long as the pistol grip only guns, but with a simple movement can be shot as accurately as a full stocked gun.

A full stocked gun is also way more controllable, and easier to hit with.

Chuck
"Your Mileage May Vary"

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2004, 01:52:09 PM »
Being perpetually gun-poor, when I decided I needed a shotgun, I haunted the gunshops until I found what I wanted.  It's a '70's-vintage Savage/Stevens Model 67 in 20 gauge.  The barrel was cut to 19 inches, the action was slicked up, and it was shot a lot for familiarity.  I also removed the full buttstock and replaced it with a homemade version that includes a short butt and a pistol grip, very maneuverable around the house.  Elastic buttcuff holds five rounds of mixed OO and slugs, the feed tube carries four rounds of 3 Buck.  The bead front sight will eventually be replaced when I can afford rifle sights, and a light will be added as well.  My total expenditure so far comes to around $130.00, and will likely stay below $250.00 when it's finished.  It's all I feel I need.  If four fast shots, plus five more on tap doesn't solve the problem, I'm probably already screwed, unless my female backup shows up with the Mini-14 or the 13-shot 40S&W.  I don't worry about it much, they have to get thru my two Chihuahuas to get to me!   :o   They aren't much of a threat, but they are LOUD and a serious hazard to your ankles.  Should slow a bad guy down long enough for me to rack the slide and center the intruder.
PJ
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline BamBams

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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2004, 06:19:11 PM »
Found this info on the net......I'd say the guy is right on.

The person who is looking for a defense shotgun is typically faced with two main choices on today's market for pump guns -- the Remington 870 series and the Mossberg 500 series. So the natural question becomes, "which one is best for me?"
By the way, if you want my opinion, here is an article on what to look for in a defense shotgun.

A lot of people like the Remington 870 for a good pump-action defense shotgun. I am not one of them. This article explains why. My reasons for disliking the Remington 870 may not apply to you -- as in all my articles, my theme is that if it fits your particular person, then you should go with it! But in my opinion, there are some good, objective reasons for not selecting the Remington 870.

I. Prelude.

I am quite familiar with both the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500. My first shotgun was a Mossberg 590 and I bought my dad (quite to my regret, now) a Remington 870 Express Magnum for his birthday back in 1998. I still have my 590, which serves double duty alongside my Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical. I have one friend with an identical Mossberg 590 and two other friends with Remington 870 Express Magnums in defense configuration.

II. Downsides to the Remington 870, as compared to the Mossberg 500.

In sum:

1. Installation of magazine extensions;

2. Installation of TacStar Sidesaddles;

3. Position of shell lifter;

4. Number of extractors;

5. Position of safety;

6. Position of slide release; and

7. Quality of finish (870 Express only).

Purchasing an 870 Police or Marine Magnum will obviate points #1 and 2. So if you do decide to get a Remington 870, get a Marine Magnum. But let's get into the details.

1. Installation of magazine extensions.

Late production (>1990, I think) shotguns have several nice modifications that will prevent the installation of certain defense accessories on Remington 870 shotguns. You get these free of charge, from the factory.

Two dimples have been machined into the 870's magazine tube, preventing the installation of a magazine extension. Nice, eh? If you add an extended magazine tube, the dimples will jam up the follower at the end of the factory magazine.

It apparently is Remington's belief that you don't need more than a certain number of shells for defense, unless you are using an 870 Police. Infuriatingly enough, even the 870 HD (Home Defense) sports these dimples. So the police can have high capacity but us regular folk cannot. Sounds oddly familiar though.

The solution is to use a drill or Dremel-type tool to remove these dimples. Or you can vote with your dollars and spend your money somewhere else. Might I add that no other shotgun made by Winchester, Benelli or Beretta, etc.) has this feature?

Now to be fair, some models of the Mossberg 500, by the way the barrel band extends over TOP of the magazine tube, also limit installation of a magazine extension. If you decide to buy a Mossberg 500 and want to add a magazine extension, check for this item prior to purchase.

2. Installation of TacStar Sidesaddle.

As discussed in my article on defense shotguns, the TacStar Sidesaddle can be a useful accessory. For the uninitiated, the TacStar Sidesaddle is a plastic shell carrier that bolts directly to the left side of a shotgun's receiver, allowing the carry of four or six shells. It's a nice little item as you can pop shells out of the Sidesaddle and into the magazine with ease.

Well, Remington has decided that if you have an 870 Express (the most economical 870 on today's market) or an 870 Wingmaster (a step up in quality from the Express, especially the finish), you're going to have some trouble installing the Sidesaddle. The slide on the Express and Wingmaster shotguns is too long -- about 1.75" too long -- and so that excess will have to be chopped off if you want to use a Sidesaddle.

There are a few ways around this nice little modification. First, you can buy a Surefire Responder (weapon-mounted light) for around $200-300 -- the Responder does not have any clearance problems with the Sidesaddle. I am a big fan of weapon-mounted lights on long arms and if you have the cash, I would strongly recommend buying a Responder for your home defense gun -- you must know your target (and what's beyond it) before pulling the trigger at all times. In low light situations, a weapon mounted light is key.

But let's say you don't have an extra $200 laying around to buy a Responder. Fair enough. TacStar, probably in response to peeved Remington 870 owners, came out with a four-shell Sidesaddle which fits the Remington 870 Express and Wingmaster without modification. But you lose two shells in the process.

The last way around this problem is to buy a special shortened slide from Remington. But Remington will only sell the shortened slide to owners of the Remington 870 Police model.

I think now you're starting to see a pattern. Why does Remington do this? As I stated in my other article, I think it has something to do with political correctness. Political correctness in a gun manufacturer is not something I hold in high regard. And again, no other defense shotgun manufacturer sees fit to incorporate this nice feature. If you're like me, the above two reasons are already enough to get you agnry enough to vote with your dollars and spend your money elsewhere. But let's go on.

3. Position of shell lifter.

For the tyros here, the shell lifter is the device that takes a fresh shell from the magazine tube and lifts it up for the slide to ram it home into the chamber. So there are basically two positions for a shell lifter -- up or down.

The Remington 870's shell lifter remains in the down position until the slide is retracted fully to the rear and starts its journey forward to insert the shell into the chamber. The Mossberg 500's shell lifter stays in the up position until the slide is fully retracted.

What does this mean for you? Well, imagine trying to load shells into your magazine tube, especially under stress. When the shell lifter stays down during the loading process, your thumb can get stuck between the end of the shell lifter and the end of the magazine tube. Painfully stuck, may I add -- can you tell this has happened to me before?

This problem is even worse with the Benelli M1 Super 90 shotgun. The Benelli shell lifter stays down like the 870 but also has a slot cut into the shell lifter at the end closest to the magazine tube. In essence, this slot allows more space for your thumb to get caught between the lifter and the tube.

The Mossberg shell lifter, by staying in the up position through the entire loading process, does not suffer from this problem. Good idea, Mossberg.

4. Number of extractors.

The extractor is a claw-like piece of metal attached to the bolt. The claw hooks onto the rim of the shotshell and pulls it from the chamber.

The Remington 870 has one extractor. The Mossberg 500 has two. Two is better than one.

5. Position of safety.

The Remington 870 safety is located on the triggerguard, to the rear, in a cross-bolt fashion. You press to the right to make the weapon "on safe" and to the left to take the weapon "off safe".

The Mossberg 500's safety is found on the top of the receiver tang. You pull the safety button back (towards you) to make the weapon "on safe" and press the safety forward with your thumb to take the weapon "off safe".

To me, the Mossberg's safety is more instinctive -- press her forward and you're ready to go. Not everyone will agree with me here, but you should see which system you prefer.

But because the safety on the Mossberg is actuated with the thumb, you are able to manipulate the safety without moving your trigger finger from the indexed position along the side of the triggerguard. This is not possible with the Remington 870, as the safety must be actuated with the trigger finger -- and not only that, you must move the finger away from the indexed position to behind the triggerguard.

To see why this is a problem, consider the situation where you are moving about with your shotgun -- most scattergun experts recommend you move with your shotgun in cruiser ready status. See, e.g., John S. Farnam, The Farnam Method of Defensive Shotgun and Rifle Shooting 49-50(1997); Gabriel Suarez, The Tactical Shotgun 88 (1996). Cruiser ready to Farnam means safety off; Suarez leaves the choice up to the user but his book generally assumes that the safety is on. Choose which one works best for you -- I prefer safety off, but let us assume that you want the safety on.

So you round the corner, and there's the goblin rushing you with an upraised knife. Your body's adrenaline dump hits you, causing tunnel vision and more importantly, reduced fine motor skills.

If you are using a Mossberg, flicking the safety off before (or while) arming the shotgun is done with the dominant thumb and the trigger finger can stay in the indexed position until you are ready to fire -- all it needs to do is to move to the trigger and press. However, if you are using a Remington 870, your trigger finger has to: (1) move to its position behind the triggerguard; (2) disengage the safety; (3) move forward to the trigger; and (4) press.

With the Mossberg, your trigger finger only has two steps -- move back into the triggerguard and fire -- instead of four. And with the Remington, your trigger finger is going to do some serious traveling, all under the reduced fine motor capacity of stress. Not a good thing, believe me.

Remington advocates will say that it is just as easy for the Mossberg user, with the same stress-induced motor impairment, to botch the disengagement of the thumb safety. True enough. But in either case, if you botch the safety release, your gun won't fire. So the Mossberg and Remington are equivalent in this respect.

But assuming that the safety is succesfully disengaged, the Remington user's trigger finger must move FORWARD into the triggerguard and then BACKWARD to press the trigger. The Mossberg user merely moves his or her finger BACKWARD towards the trigger, and continues that BACKWARD motion to actuate the trigger. The Remington thus forces the user to move his or her trigger finger in an opposite direction to actuation of the trigger.

Consider whether you want to put up with this nice little approach when you're under stress of a defensive situation. Remington users, since shotguns aren't drop-safe even with the safety engaged, I would strongly consider leaving the safety OFF when you are moving about in cruiser ready. If you religiously observe rule #3 (keep your finger outside of the triggerguard until you are ready to fire) you should be okay.

Consider also that the Mossberg system fits better with with the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) theory of training for those of us who also own AR15 type rifles. You actuate the safety with your thumb and the trigger with your trigger finger. Sticking with one method for both shotgun and rifle will cut down on the problem of conditional branching in your training. Otherwise you will be stuck with two methods -- activate safety with thumb on the AR15, but with the trigger finger on the Remington 870, which will increase the difficulty of your training regimen and present a possible conditional branching problem in the stress of battle.

Lastly, lefties will appreciate the ambidextrous safety of the Mossberg 500, straight out of the box. With the Remington 870, you either must buy a dedicated left-handed model or I'm sure someone sells a lefty safety for the Remington 870 -- but that's more money out of your pocket, lefties.

6. Position of slide release.

The Remington 870's slide release is found on the left side of the triggerguard, to the front. The Mossberg 500's slide release is found to the rear of the triggerguard, to the right.

Maybe some of you all with long fingers can reach the Remington's slide release with your trigger finger. That would mean you could wrap your trigger finger around the front of the triggerguard, to the left side of the triggerguard. That's one long finger, but I guess some people have them.

You could use your non-dominant hand to actuate the release, but that's not the recommended method of speedloading or ammunition swapping. Your non-dominant hand will be going for the new round of ammunition while your dominant hand stays on the grip of your shotgun, which is still pointed at the goblin. See Farnam, supra, at 90-96; Suarez, supra, at 107-117.

By the way, you'll have to move your trigger finger from the indexed position while you release the slide on your Remington 870. More complications with the trigger finger, more to go wrong.

I much prefer the Mossberg's slide release -- I don't have to move my trigger finger at all from the indexed position. In fact, I don't have to move my dominant hand at all. I simply actuate the release with my middle finger on my dominant hand. Easy, eh?

Now why would you need to use your slide release during a defense situation? The answer is that you might need to switch between buckshot and slugs for defense work. Buckshot is generally good only to 25 yards but slugs can increase your scattergun's effective range to 75-100 yards. Furthermore, slugs provide superior penetration against hard targets. See Farnam, supra, at 94-96; Suarez, supra, at 107-111.

If you've got a round of buck in the chamber but you want to switch to slugs, you have to work the slide release to get the buckshot out -- assuming you can't just fire the buckshot shell at the goblin. Both Farnam and Suarez espouse methods of ammunition swapping that rely on the slide release. See Farnam, supra; Suarez, supra.

Therefore, you can see how having easy access to the slide release can be critical if you want to switch shells with a live one in the chamber. Unless your fingers are long enough to reach around the front of the triggerguard to hit the Remington's slide release, under stress, I'd go with the Mossberg.

7. Quality of finish.

The Remington 870 Express comes with a black crackle finish. I don't know what it is, but it ain't bluing or parkerizing. For the same amount of money, you can get a Mossberg 500 with a nice slick blued or parkerized finish. This is just a personal preference, mind you.

III. Downsides of the Mossberg 500

It ain't all roses with the Mossberg, people. And besides, if I mentioned only the strengths of the Mossbergs but left out the weaknesses, it wouldn't be fair.

1. Plastic safety button and triggerguard.

The safety button on the Mossberg 500 series is plastic. So is the triggerguard. Some persons have reported problems with these plastic parts -- they apparently break rather easily.

This seemed to affect the US armed forces which were issued the Mossberg shotgun as well. To that end, Mossberg now offers the 500 and 590 Military models. These have steel triggerguards and (I think) safety buttons. This will cost you a bit more money, if you feel that having a metal triggerguard and safety button is necessary. The plastic parts on my 590 haven't failed me yet.

2. Aluminum receivers.

The receiver of the Remington 870 is steel, while the receivers on the Mossberg 500s are aluminum alloy. Steel is certainly stronger than aluminum, but at the cost of added weight. Durability of the receiver has never been a problem for me, but take this into consideration. Especially if you intend to add a Sidesaddle -- if you over-torque the mounting screws on the Sidesaddle, it's easier to warp an aluminum receiver than a steel one. Sufficient warping and you can bind up your shotgun's bolt.

3. Surefire Responders and the Mossberg 590.

Want a Surefire Responder on your Mossberg 590? Unfortunately, for the standard Responder you will have to grind down your bayonet lug. That's not something that anyone can do in their garage.

Surefire has introduced the Responder model 623A1 which does not require removal of the bayonet lug. As of the date of this article, I have yet to see one on the shelves.

4. Scattergun Technologies.

You have to wonder why Scattergun Technologies, a subsidiary of Wilson Combat, works only with Remington 870 shotguns. Maybe they have some sort of financial arrangement with Remington, who knows. In any case, you have to wonder why they don't offer customized Mossberg shotguns.

5. Military shotguns.

The Mossberg 500/590 Military was the military issue shotgun up until very recently, having been displaced by the Benelli M4 Super 90 shotgun. The M4 Super 90 is a convertible pump/semi-auto shotgun with collapsable stock. While the Mossberg shotguns passed the 3,000 round buckshot test to become the standard military shotgun, they are no longer the primary issue shotgun.

I'm not sure if the Remington 870 was ever a standard issue shotgun for the United States military.

6. Magazine Extensions on some Mossberg 500s.

As mentioned above, some Mossberg 500s limit installation of magazine extensions due to the way the barrel band loops over top of the magazine tube. I don't know why they do this.

IV. Conclusion

The Remington 870 is a fine shotgun, but not for me. Some of the above reasons are based on personal preference, but others are not. I don't think you will be making a huge mistake if you do select a Remington 870 as your defense shotgun, but please be aware of the various pitfalls that exist.

Please remember, if you buy a Remington 870, buy an 870 Police or Marine Magnum! You won't have to deal with the problems with the magazine extensions or Sidesaddles.

Some people don't care about the politically correct magazine dimples and Sidesaddle problems that Remington sees fit to include with the 870. As long as they get a good deal, there is no need to vote with their dollars -- for those people. That's their decision.

After all, there are people who still buy Ruger firearms, even after William B. Ruger supported the high-capacity magazine ban and voluntarily restricted availability of high-capacity magazines and certain other defense-specific modifications for his Mini-14 rifle -- long before the 1994 assault weapon and high-capacity mag ban went into effect.

As long as they get a good deal for their money, they could care less.

I am not at all surprised at this. As a NRA life member, I am told that there are 65-80 million gun owners in the United States, with only 3.0-3.5 million members of the National Rifle Association (I am not including other gun-rights groups like the Gun Owners of America -- I'm a GOA life member too). Thus, only a measly FIVE PERCENT of gun owners give a hoot enough to shell out $35 per year to fight for their gun rights. The other 95% ride off the efforts of that five percent, all for the cost of a few magazines or boxes of ammunition per year.

That's their right. You decide whether you want to vote with your dollars or not.
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Offline les hemby

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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2004, 03:51:22 AM »
about all i can add is. I have had 2 winchester defenders of which both broke(slide releases) so my choices are remington & mossberg. Imho winchester rifles are great but their pumps are junk. This is just my opinion. One of the defenders broke on third shot :( sure glad it was shootin for fun and not for family. Before i get flamed this is just my opinion on winchester and 2 out of 2 bad i doubt it changes. As chris said i have seen mossberg go through way more than i care to admit.i still have a mossberg pump that when i was a kid i use to take a dirtbike duck hunting, it would be so muddy sometime i would take a shower with it when i got home and dry it out. This aint recommended practice but the gun still shoots 20 yrs later as good as it did then. Also guntest did a comparison of slug guns. The rear sight broke on winchester after 3 or 4 rounds. For a cheap good shotgun my vote is for mossberg 500 and 870 express. Also thanks for this little thread. I have a 870 i wanna build with lights, bells, and whistles  :D

Offline BamBams

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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2004, 07:28:40 PM »
CK........

I feel remiss in posting here earlier without even addressing the original question. I hope I'm not too late to be of some help.

Instead of the HiViz, why not just get tritium night sights?  Meprolight makes one just for the Mossberg. The Hiviz isn't going to do much in the pitch black of night.  A tritium front bead doesn't cost much at all.  An FFL holder can get an entire, tritium ghost ring setup for about $40.

Instead of the Speedfeed stock which holds the extra rounds, I'd get the Speedfeed TAC IV stock that has both a shoulder & pistol grip.  If the pull on the Mossberg is too long, which is a common thing with some Mossberg factory stocks, then get the Speedfeed TAC IV "S." Also on a Mossberg 590, you've already got nine rounds in the shotgun, and if you add a side saddle, then you've got 15 rounds on board.  If that ain't enough, then I'd go for a fifty-five round bandelero. *laugh*

On a "home defense" shotgun, you are correct to consider some sort of tactical light system with a momentary "on" switch located in a convenient and comfortable location.  Take a look at the Tac-Star 2000 WLS.  It's more affordable than the "Surefire." It's easy to mount, and about as powerful as a Surefire "C" series light with the normal lamp.  Of course it's NOT a "Surefire," but it's definitely better than nothing.

If you use the Mossberg 590, go ahead a get a bayonet for it.  Sharpen it up really good, and you've got a slightly better edge on weapon retention (pun intended). Along the same lines (retention) get a heat shield on the Mossberg.  The 590 comes with one. In a defense situation, ya never know where your hands are going to have to go.

On the Mossberg, I'd pull out the black magazine tube plug and replace it with a dayglo orange or green one.

Down the road, when you get bored and already have a fridge full of beer, you can call Mossberg and order a metal safety button and metal trigger guard for it.  You'd need to tell them your wanting the parts for a 590 A-1.  OR you could just buy an A-1?  The A-1 also has a heavier duty barrel.  Whichever.

Lastly, I'd get a nice, tactical sling that allows you to carry the shotgun in the "ready" position with no hands.  I consider this a mandatory thing in home defense. If you have to use your hands to call 911, grab a baby, whatever - they are invaluable.
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Offline VanL6

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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2004, 11:46:01 AM »
Can a Mossberg or Remington pump shotgun be fired while holding the trigger down and only having to pump? Like my old Winchesters can.

I saw a movie a while back, where Charles Bronson demonstrates this technique. My 1300 defender won't do this;But, my model 12's do. I can unload 8 rounds out of my defender pretty quick;But, it would be quicker if I could just hold the trigger down. Does anybody know more about this?

Offline Big Paulie

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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2004, 06:45:30 AM »
Dear Folks,  

 This is probably not a very interesting comment, but I will just throw it in for good measure.  I owned a Remington 870 Wingmaster for 25 years, and never had a single mechanical problem with it.  It was my all around shotgun for work or play and was slick as glass.

    But, one time, about 5 years ago, I decided that I would try to shoot double trap with it, just for fun.    I had no problem hitting the first bird, but in order to get the second bird, I had to pump that action real real fast.

     In the course of 10 shots, I "short-stroked" the action 5 times, resulting in a jam.   This really really surprised me, because I have never short stroked a shotgun in my life.  Actually, it kinda shook me up!

    As a result of this, I have this basic concern that in any self defense scenario, I would be totally full of fear and adrenelin, and would be unconsciously pumping that shotgun as fast as physically possible,  resulting in a very high possibility of short stroking it and ending up dead.
You don't have time to clear a jam in a fire fight.

   So, for all of you who have never short-stoked one, you may want to consider that in a self defense scenario, things are going to be alot different that when you pump that action to shoot a second shot at a duck or squirrel.  

    For me, an extremely reliable autoloader is the way to go.  I have fired certain Beretta auto shotguns for skeet and trap over 1,000 times, without a single jam!  This is not unusual for the Berettas.  It is standard.

    The double barrel coach guns with external trigger may also be the way to go.

Just some info.

Best Regards,

Big Paulie

Offline BattleRifleG3

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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2004, 07:12:27 PM »
I'm of the opinion that a shotgun, being high caliber and short range, should be set up like a musket - that is, should be tough enough that  it can also work well hand-to-hand.  I have a Mossberg 590 with an M9 bayonet as a home defense shotgun.  A full tube shouldn't require the use of the bayonet, but it's there just in case.

If I tested a semi-auto to satisfaction, I'd be satisfied with it as well, but would like to somehow have the hand-to-hand capabilities.  I agree on the silliness of thousand dollar tactical shotguns.  I had a brief phase where I thought I needed to tacticalize my Moss-500, until I realized the factory components are better than the aftermarket and that for my musket-like setup with bayonet, a classic stock is better than a p-grip.

I'd never go with a p-grip alone, but would consider a folding stock if size were an issue.
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Offline Savage

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« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2004, 12:59:50 AM »
A bayonet ?

You're kidding, right?

Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,