Author Topic: Are you intimidated? (Read 3293 times)

Double D · « **on:** November 02, 2009, 04:16:07 AM »

So Many of the gun build posted here are based on some sort of Naval carriage. Some nice variations exist on this design and it is a simple cariage to make. There seems to be a lack of field carriages. I thing one of the roadblocks to making the type carriage is wheels.

I was going through my plans and noticed William Green's instructions and thought posting migh help some make wheels of there own. This type post always seems to bring other "here's how I do it" reponses. So here is William Green's method.

Click on link below the picture for lorger and clear picture.

http://www.fototime.com/3DCF86E61FCA6FA/orig.jpg

]http://www.fototime.com/7622B2036EC856C/orig.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/62646FDBA59FDCB/orig.jpg

Here is a wheel I made 25 years ago.

Evil Dog · « **Reply #1 on:** November 02, 2009, 04:25:06 AM »

Great article but I still believe that wheels are way beyond my capability.... especially the 36" and larger variety.

carronader · « **Reply #2 on:** November 02, 2009, 06:21:59 AM »

DD any way of e-mailing me that file.............is where I'm at just now and any extra info is gratefully received.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 02, 2009, 07:41:45 AM »

Nope not intimidated, never have been intimidated by inanimate objects

Just at a loss for time at the moment, unfortunatly that will change.......

I have an Idea for building a lathe for turning both Fellows for the outer wheels

in one shot, Stay tuned for future developments.

Allen <><

gulfcoastblackpowder · « **Reply #4 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:35:10 AM »

I've been wanting to give it a shot for a while. Unfortunately, almost all my woodworking is done at a friend's house, since I have mostly autobody tools, and he's intimidated by wheels. Perhaps with some more detailed information about the making of the hubs and morticing for the staves, I may be able to convince him...

Zulu · « **Reply #5 on:** November 02, 2009, 01:43:16 PM »

Wheels are dished. Civil war wheels have spokes that have a 3 degree cant on both ends. That cant is opposite on both ends. You can't turn them on a lathe. I am very interested in this process. Any ideas?
Zulu

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** November 02, 2009, 02:10:36 PM »

Making wheels is an enterprise that quickly rewards the effort of making jigs and fixtures since there are so many duplicate parts required. I have made a number of jigs for making half scale mountain howitzer wheels (don't ask for pictures because most of them are in someone else's possession, along with the wheel parts.) For making felloes, I made an adjustable center, two jigs for cutting the curves on a bandsaw, another for cutting the angles on the ends, and two for drilling the spoke holes and the dowel holes in the ends. For the spokes, I made, or designed but have not yet made, three jigs for sawing and two for the tenons on the ends, plus a special cutter to cut the tenons.

I plan to make hubs from aluminum instead of wood since the aluminum has no grain and won't need the bands to stay together (although simulated bands will be present.) Paint will hide the aluminum.

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** November 02, 2009, 02:50:58 PM »

Here are the ones I made and forgot to post in the first post.. Politically correct and accurate they are not. Functional they are.

I confess I had help with this project. But it was done on a bandsaw and drill press. Hubs were made on the metal lathe from laminated blocks.

A square U shaped box jig was made. The angles were calculated and holes were drill so a dowel went across the two box sides at an angle The dowel went through the hub axle hole and the hub sat an angle A strip of paper was wrapped around each hub and a razor knife cut the paper at the over lap. Paper was then laid out, measured and and divide by spoke count and marked. The strip was then taped back on the marks were punched into the wood. When a hole was drilled in the hubs at each mark and spoke was insert it was at th proper angle and separation.

The fello's were cut and clamped to together and fastened to a sheet of plywod and cut out on the band saw. After cutting out, a strip of paper was used on the inside and cut and marked similar to the hub. The fello's were put in a angle vice and drilled on the inner side.

They were then glued and clamped.

I took the finished wooden weels to a local steel fabricator and the did the tires.

And that is the best I can remember something I did 24 years ago.

Zulu · « **Reply #8 on:** November 03, 2009, 12:43:06 PM »

I posted these once in another thread but they belong here.

These 36" wheels took a long time to make. I had the iron hoop rolled by a machine shop then fitted it to the wheel. They are not dished as I could not figure out how to cant 3 degrees on each end in opposite directions. The holes in the hub were marked for drilling on my lathe which has settings for doing that.
Zulu

GGaskill · « **Reply #9 on:** November 03, 2009, 01:05:43 PM »

It appears that this wheel was made with 8 felloes and 14 spokes, which seems to be an odd way to make a wooden wheel. It causes the spokes to go in irregular places in the felloes (sometimes right next to the joints) instead of the same, symmetrically oriented places if there were a 2 to 1 ratio between spokes and felloes.

Double D · « **Reply #10 on:** November 03, 2009, 01:26:05 PM »

Don't ask me, I was just the unskilled labor and direction follower...besides it was 25 years ago.. We made 6 of these wheels or was it 4....

Cannoneer · « **Reply #11 on:** November 04, 2009, 08:57:28 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on November 03, 2009, 01:05:43 PM

It appears that this wheel was made with 8 felloes and 14 spokes, which seems to be an odd way to make a wooden wheel. It causes the spokes to go in irregular places in the felloes (sometimes right next to the joints) instead of the same, symmetrically oriented places if there were a 2 to 1 ratio between spokes and felloes.

This was discussed on an earlier thread, but I couldn't find it; W. F. Green offered alternate methods of building field carriage wheels. For the model maker that wanted/needed an easier way, W. Green added one more felloe, and drew his plans using dowels for spokes instead of authentically shaped scale spokes.

Enlarge, and read instructions for making wheels.

PaulB · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2009, 07:27:02 PM »

DD,
I originally wanted to build a field carriage but decided against it for a number of reasons including the wheels. However, lately I've been wanting to try but the barrel I have is a 1/3 scale 12 pound "Sea Service" tube from SBR and I didn't think it would be appropriate to mount it on a civil war carriage. I was crunching the numbers and find it's actually fairly close dimensionally to a 1/2 scale 3 pounder "Grasshopper" tube, besides the obvious problem with it being cast iron, it looks very similar and 30" wheels would also be a good fit.

Where would I find detailed drawings on the Grasshopper carriage?

carronader · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:01:51 PM »

Paul , some good photos of carriage in this and info...............drawings are always a pain.........for me anyway as I hate paying for part of our heritage..........and you just try finding free stuff.

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2009, 06:22:12 AM »

Listed on Cannon Internet Link list in the wheels section is Wooden Wagon Wheels. This is a website that specializes in wagon and wagon making. The link specifically leads to the page on Windy Hills pattern books on Wheel making.

I broke down and bought Making wheels Easy #1. Thumbing through the book it appears to have some pretty interesting ideas, especally in building fixtures. I think there are some useful tips for you guys who want to build wheels. The only thing I saw in the book that I didn't like was the nave. It as a false nave and that covers the spoke end that are simple angled point.

I also ordered two construction sheets with the book. These sheets come from W.Hobby LTd in London.

More Wheel books

Wheel Construction. Step by step instruction chart to help build authentic six segment scale wheels. The method is based on the use of a simple lathe, but a bench mounted drill could be used with a few simple jigs. You are going to ask what is the difference between the two charts - and I just can't tell you any more than it looks like the JT206 has more detail than the 1514P. They both will help you build an authentic model wheel with the 6 segment felloes.
JT206 $6 + s/h $2

and

Model Cart Wheels. This plan shows construction details (six segment) for building am authentic looking wagon wheel. Shows how to make simple drilling jig for spokes - for any diameter wheel.
1514P $4 + s/h $2

I think with these three item's, plus the ideas put forth in the William Green drawings Boomj and I posted you should be able build some pretty good wheels.

carronader · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2009, 11:38:51 AM »

DD where do you keep pulling this stuff from ? and for a moderator you post crud images ( gotta be said ) this stuff is gold dust can we have BIG images some of us would just love to have a good copy of them.......................I'll post some drawings of Victory's rigging as a bribe. Ballantines golden nectar wouldn't survive the postal system.

Double D · « **Reply #16 on:** November 06, 2009, 12:34:30 PM »

The "crud" images are intended, some of this stuff is copyrighted. While it's not illegal to post excerpts in review of copyrighted material, I am not going to push the envelope so to speak.

Carronader, I know you thrifty Scot's always wish to save a pence so understand your desire for a free source. On the other hand this thrifty Scot, at least half and few drops more of highland blood flowing in my veins, spent his own pence to get these materials and am not willing to share...

.

Where do I find this stuff-first on the internet. Google is my friend. I use google to find all kinds of things. Cannon links, and Martini Henry links are the product of this research.

You need HMS Victory rigging?

Is that Fore top rigging?

Or, is that rigging the Victory's 32 PDR?

PaulB · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2009, 08:14:09 PM »

Those of you who have built your own wheels, are you putting a 3 degree angle on the outside of the felloes before you install the steel tire? If so, do you just use the felloes to form the hot tire to the angle?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2009, 08:36:52 PM »

Another thing to keep in mind if you want authentic looking artillery field carriage wheels is the number of felloes, and spokes used to make up the wheels used by different countries. British field carriages from the latter 1700's all the way through the 1800's had wheels composed of six felloes, and twelve spokes, while French artillery carriages changed from 12 spoked wheels with 6 felloes, to 14 spoked wheels with 7 felloes sometime in the latter 1700's, or early 1800's. The U.S. emulated the French wheels, and went with a wheel made of seven felloes and fourteen spokes sometime before the Mexican-American War (we also copied the French OD color scheme).

carronader · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2009, 12:51:50 AM »

aaaaaaaaa now plain English I understand and accept with good grace....." I had to pay for mine , so go buy your own " that's more like it. Had a look at Hobby website and am going to get those two drawings...thanks for that DD........I'm not that into Google yet, still use copernic and follow links, could be I'm losing out.As for your second rate Victory Dawings, just remember I made offer ......I had to go lie down in a darkened room after parting with such an outrageous amount of money for the book I have, but I will pay for what I think is a little special.I will send you some pics of cannon rig.......you can decide yourself if you use.
Paul this is how I work........collect everything you can........make a judgement on correctness........your own skills to build.........cost (of course ) and most important...learn from your mistakes. Gary (Rocklock) attacked a very difficult process and now he's producing creditable results, read his posts, you can't buy the pleasure he got from that. 3 degrees........4 degrees.......6 degrees you'll find references all over the place.
Museum piece of course must be exact to period and function, who do you want to please ? the 'experts' or yourself.More information you have the better your judgement, that's why I come here.

carronader · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2009, 01:26:21 AM »

the attached pdf is from guild with good reputation,and more important they don't just talk about or criticise they build wheels.

Max Caliber · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2009, 06:28:40 AM »

PaulB,
I'm not sure what your question is but this drawing may help anyway. The spoke tenons go straight into the felloes, not at an angle. The tenon is cut at an angle on the spokes. The inside of the felloes on most Civil War wheels and a lot of other wheels have the inside face of the felloes at the same angle as the spokes. In the drawing, the right side is the outside of the wheel

PaulB · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2009, 08:47:08 AM »

Quote from: Max Caliber on November 08, 2009, 06:28:40 AM

PaulB,
I'm not sure what your question is but this drawing may help anyway. The spoke tenons go straight into the felloes, not at an angle. The tenon is cut at an angle on the spokes. The inside of the felloes on most Civil War wheels and a lot of other wheels have the inside face of the felloes at the same angle as the spokes. In the drawing, the right side is the outside of the wheel

Max Caliber,
Thanks, your drawing shows the tire basically flat but most of the drawings I've seen rely on the axle being angled in order to put the spokes perpendicular to the ground and keep the tire flat. My question had to do with the fact that, on those wheels, the tires have a smaller circumference on the inside edge of the tire than on the outside. Or maybe I'm confused $:-\$

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** November 08, 2009, 09:49:05 AM »

I have had the same question, that is, is the face of the tire parallel to the ground (perpendicular to the spokes) or parallel to the axis of the wheel? On dirt roads, it probably doesn't matter but it might affect wear to the felloes.

Double D · « **Reply #24 on:** November 08, 2009, 10:30:06 AM »

The issue of angle of the tyres is address in the Wheel construction sheets. If you look very closely at the sheets you can see it.

Max Caliber · « **Reply #25 on:** November 08, 2009, 10:45:35 AM »

PaulB, with a tapered axle, the bottom of the axle is straight for the whole length of the axle and all of the taper is on top so when the gun is in battery with the trail resting on the ground the wheels have a slight toe-in since the bottom of the axle is facing at an angle towards the front. When the gun is limbered up in traveling position, the bottom of the axle is parallel to the ground and the wheels are close to being straight down from the hub to the ground with most of the dish, say 10 degrees, thrown out at the top of the wheel,

max

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:25:07 AM »

From the wheel construction sheet.

PaulB · « **Reply #27 on:** November 08, 2009, 11:56:00 AM »

Max Caliber,
Thanks for the excellent description on how the tapered axle affects spoke angle and toe in.

DD,
One of the things raising a question in my mind is the various drawings contradict each other on this issue.
Thanks for reposting the drawing showing this, that was the one drawing that was unreadable when I saved it. It does show the tire is essentially a cone which makes sense if the tire is to lay flat on the ground when the carriage is limbered up. It also makes it a lot trickier to build the tire although probably easier to install it.

Double D · « **Reply #28 on:** November 08, 2009, 12:04:26 PM »

No, the drawings aren't contradictions. The drawings each show a method to make wheels. The drawings each will make a wheel for their intended purpose. But they don't all make authentic copies of original wheels.

Double D · « **Reply #29 on:** April 30, 2010, 02:07:03 PM »

refreshed