Author Topic: The best close range-woods deer bullet?  (Read 7726 times)

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Offline Tonk

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 11:46:06 AM »
OneShot I got to agree that 1/4 bore-06 is a made to order deer caliber! I have used mine for over 15 years before getting the bug to try something different. However, I must admit that my .444 Marlin does not let deer run off very far, if at all as matter of fact. Then again the 25/06 nor it's replacement (6.5/06) does not shake those fillings loose in your jaw-bone either. I used to use the 120 grain Nosler Partition bullet going 2750fps and always had good luck with the bullet doing what it was supposed to do.  8)

Offline efremtags

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 12:20:32 PM »
I agree with GB, I have seen more deer killed from 30-06 180GR SP than all other guns/ammo combined.

From a practical stand point, this bullet is optimally designed for the gun velocity/range window. At 50ft, it will mushrrom violently and shed some weight, but not enough to matter if in the fron 1/3rd of the body cavity. If 300 yards, it will still mushroom well and retain 80% or more weight.

For the price, I see no reason to look further for deer. I am sure they work well on larger game, but have no experience on anything larger than a blackbear/deer sized game. I am guessing they are ok too since they have ben around since the 30-06 has been invented.

I think the premiums were really designed for Africa (makes sense, expensive hunt, expensive bulltets). Also for the guys who think a 30-378 is a good idea.

Offline Steve P

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 03:47:59 PM »
I was asked to post into this thread and mention not only close range-woods deer bullets, but also pointed bullets vs round nose bullets.  As mentioned before by several posters velocity is very important in determining a good close range deer bullet.  Not only velocity, but also stability and potential to retain stability.  

There was mention of the old "brush buster" bullets vs some of the newer premium bullets.  Our fathers and grandfathers were not dumb when it came to bullets and hunting rifles.  A good majority of them hunted deer as sustenance, not sport.  As such they wanted meat, not antlers on the wall.  Heavy bullets at moderate velocities were used for game animals and light bullets at higher velocities were used for varmints and pests.  This was due no only due to the makeup and shape of the bullet, but also due to the speed of the bullet and it's potential to retain stability.  This has remained true to today, BUT there are exceptions.  Take most of your bullet manufacturers and ammo makers.  Their heavier bullets are intended for hunting and their lighter for caliber bullets are for varmints, at least in the majority.

Should the bullet be pointed, round nosed, flat nosed, or a combination of these.  It depends.....we could have a long discussion and arguement on this one and still not have a solution.  As is my typical routine, I always come up with some off the wall example to try to get my point across.  For this discuss, lets use hammer, nail, and wood.  Use a small nail and pound it into the wood.  What kind of displacement do you get into the wood?  Goes in pretty easy doesn't it?  Take a grinder and take just the tip off of that nail.  Now poiund it into the wood.  How much wood is displaced?  Goes in a little bit harder?  Now grind the tip off of a nail and make it a flat tip.  How much wood is displaced?  How hard is that to pound in?  Now try it with a bigger nail.  What happens?  Eventually the wood is going to split.  Same can be said of a bullet.  A pointed bullet will initiate the energy at a small point and as it begins to mushroom, it will begin to dissipate the energy over a larger area.  A round nose bullet is displacing more energy due to it coming into contact with a larger surface area.  As it too mushrooms, it is disspating energy over a larger area.  

Lets take the nail again and see what happens if we hit a knot.  Pointed nail will still dissipate some of the wood, but the nail could go crooked, it could just bend,  it is really hard to tell what it will do.  Now take the point off of the nail.  Hit that knot.  HOow does the nail react?  It's gonna bend.  You will have to try to make it go in crrooked.  In this case, the flat point on the nail is making it more stable.  It is less likely to go where you don't want it.  Same is true for a bullet.  That nice point is good for displacing the wind and for displacing tissue, but it is a more prone to goi in an unwanted direction at the least amount of "knot".

Take a look at the "dangerous game" ammo produced by all manufacturers.  You will see that most of it is round nose or flat nose.  This is no accident.  These bullet types are more stable.  Look a little closer and you will also see that this ammo is using a bullet on the heavier end of the caliber spectrum.  Heavier bullets maintain more energy than lighter bullets on a given mass.  Even in your ballistic tables for typical guns.  Your heavier bullet is going to eventually surpass a lighter bullet in speed and retained energy.

So, what is the best close range deer bullet?  It is a bullet in the legal caliber of your choice that is on the heavier side.  It is loaded at a moderate velocity and it is accurate in your gun.

Steve :P

 
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Bowjack

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2009, 04:45:02 PM »
In my experience for deer, I have to agree the 30-06 with either 165 or 180 grain Core-lokts are very hard to beat and cheap too.

I have a friend that has hunted all over the country from moose, elk, w-t and mule deer, hogs, etc. and he swears by the 30-06 Remington Core-lokts in either bullet weight and has yet to have them let him down and has never lost an animal with this combo. 

Me neither.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2009, 06:32:10 PM »
  I have had the pleasure to shoot alot of deer with many different calibers. From high speed 22-250s, 257 Weatherbys, and 7STWs, to 35 Remingtons, 358 Normas, 375 H&Hs, 45-70s and all the 30 caliber offerings. I have found that the bullet that kills the best (quickest) is a moderate velocity(2400-2900fps)middle to heavy for caliber bullet. Standard cup and core bullets seem to be more effective than slower expanding premium type bullets. I have been doing some research on Hawk bullets and am impressed. Hawk bullets seem to be the cat's meow for moderate range. They are relatively soft so they expand and they don't blow apart. Does anyone have any field experience with Hawks. I am thinking of using some for hunting in the timber and close range cutover. I want a big wound channel and an exit so as to have a good SHORT blood trail.

I’ve had equal DRT results with 350g .458” North Fork bullets at well under 2000fps and 140g 7mm Norht Fork bullets pushing or exceeding 3000fps at impact.  Seems to me the trick is to hit the vitals with a good bullet.  I wouldn’t push a cup-and core to the velocities I push North Forks, A-Frames, TTSX, MRX or Trophy Bonded.

Moderate velocities often work well because the bullets often penetrate deeper, a fact that has been observed in various tests by many shooters, including well-known gun rag writers.  My deepest penetrating .45-70 load is not a 460g hardcast at 1812fps or a 350g North Fork at 2183fps but a 350g hardcast running only 1097fps.  The slowpoke 350g/1097fps load penetrates 12 gallon-sized water jugs and exits, the other two stop well short at 9 and 6 jugs respectively.  A Barnes 180g MRX from  my .300 WM at 3100fps manages to penetrate only 7 water jugs.

A .458” 350g North Fork impacting at 1580fps will exit a mulie buck on a quartering away shot placed behind the ribs and cause massive blood leakage.  On elk, and just a little slower, it will penetrate the near side leg, obliterate a section of leg bone, exit the far side of the leg, enter the chest cavity, obliterate a section of rib, shatter the far side rib and come to a halt against the far side hide.  Needless to say, DRT elk.

Barnes TTSX bullets seem to do the trick whether fast or slow.  In my experience they open very quickly and penetrate deeply.  In fact, I have yet to recover one.  I load them at velocities ranging from 2600fps  to 3400fps with no observable difference in results after impact – and no bullet blow-ups regardless of velocity. 

Again, hit the vitals with a good bullet and good things happen.

Haven’t used hawks and likely never will – I prefer bullets that provide controlled but limited expansion.  Over-expansion limits penetration.


Coyote Hunter
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Offline jro45

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2010, 02:57:51 AM »
I would say that my 30/06 ,or my 257 wby, Or my 270 Win.Would all be good woods Rifles.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2010, 03:25:00 AM »
To be realistic you would need to pick a rifle really . An action type if you will. Now i have hunted the thick woods of the South , What does that mean ? . Well i have seen pines so thick when in the first years after planting  that you could hardly walk thru. them . Seen thinned pines that had briers so thick that after the snow beat them down you could walk on top of them . In places like this a quick handling rifle is needed . A scope is of little use as most shots are taken as deer dart across logging roads . I use a 7X30 waters and 30-30 mod 94's alot . Tried several auto loaders and found them heavy and slower As a note i used a 30 cal. carbine for several years where the walk was long and the drag out was a strain and it worked well on the does and turkeys  we shot . A bolt gun is useless in this type of hunting if a second shot is need more times than not ( tried many times ) . A single shot is also a handicap. We also hunt hard woods that vary from thick to open . The 94 seems at home here also. I have tried Winchesters in 30-30 , 7X30 , 307 and 356 . Marlins in 30-30 and 375 . All worked . All but the 30-30 and 7X30 were way more than needed to stop a deer at close range in the timber . The others also kicked more and slowed a second shot . My son hunted with a SKS and found it worked well in the woods . I have also used a Mini 30 with some success but like the way the lever gun comes to the shoulder faster for me. Yep i do have way more time behind the 94 .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline yukondog

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2010, 11:19:43 AM »
35 rem. w/200 clrn
an unloaded wepon is equal to the same mass and volume as a rock.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2010, 01:12:42 PM »
I think certain rounds got a rep as brush guns not because they will plow through brush but because they are effective on deer and knock the deer down.  A deer out west or in an open field that will run 50 to 75 yards after being hit is pretty easy to find once it goes down.
In the heavy woods of the east coast it is hard to see 50 yards in most cases.  I think the heavy for caliber round or flat nose bullets expend a lot of energy into the deer where the pointed soft points tend to zing through the deer and not knock them down.
When I first started hunting Dad had a 308 so I got a 308.  He had an old box of Win western 180 grain round nose soft points for hunting and some 150's for target shooting.  When I got older and was able to buy my own shells I was buying the high end premium loads that had just started to hit the market.   I of course knew better and believed what was in the gun rags and spend hundreds of dollars on bullets that did not work better than the round nose stuff that was 1/2 to 1/4 less in price.  I now use the 180 grain soft point factory reminton ammo that knocks deer down and they are dead in the woods.
30-30, 32 Special, 30-40Krag, 35 Rem, 44-40, 45 colt, & 45-70 are all rounds from the turn of the last century and add to that list.
 7X57, 300 Savage, 308 Win, 30-06, all with round nose bullets.
While not a fan of 270 they do work well with the 150 grain round nose rounds.  From what I have seen the 130 grain silver tips turn the deer meat to goo at close range and they tend to run for 100 yards or more.

Offline rdmallory

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2010, 01:30:05 PM »
45LC 300gr ahead of Winchester 96

Marlin lever action.

Doug




Offline Wyo. Coyote Hunter

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2010, 03:28:19 PM »
 :-\ Mc, what you said about the .270 reminded me of what a pal told me about that caliber..I have had a few, but it was never a favorite..Anyway he was a big .270 fan...The game was whitetails in the hardwoods of the east coast...I prefered .30 cal. rifles for the most part, and one day I was in his house and saw a box of 150 grain Rem. CL RN laying on the table...I ask what are these for??? He said with 130 's some times I had to hit em several times... These do a better job....Don't know, but it backs up what you were saying....

Offline lgm270

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2010, 08:24:54 AM »
I"ve used the .270 WCF  130 grain Nosler Partition at 3100 for all of my hunting except elk and it's kiilled deer like Thor's hammer from 10 yards to 300 yards.    All were pass throughs except the 300 yard shot when the mushroomed bullet was on the far side balled up against the hide. 

I guess if I had to shoot at bad angles or going away shots a 150 grainer might be better, but the 130 grain NP has never failed me at any time under any conditions. 

On another note. After a life time of fiddling with all manner of calibers, bullets, etc., when it gets down to serious hunting, I always find myself reaching for my old .270/130.  I have one I sighted in 30 years ago with 130 grain Noslers. Over several decades, before I go hunting, I get it out of the trunk, fire three shots to verify it's on the dime (it always has been), put it back in the case, and spend the rest of the day chronographing and experimenting with other cal's.  The only time I've had to re-zero that .270 is when I changed scopes on it about 15 years ago.  I am going to have this rifle buried with me.   

Charlie Sisk is quoted as saying "Just load up Nosler partitions and go hunting."

Works for me.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 11:52:05 AM »
I never said the 130's out of a 270 did not kill deer.  and My sample was rather small and it was based on my two uncles (One is 4 years older than me and the other is about 10, step mother's brothers) shooting small deer on our farm in NC.  The deer would die from single shot but a lot of the meat would be blood shot and the deer would run for a while.
For some reason they would not use heavier 150's for deer.  Probably the same reason I was using premium rounds cause that's what the gun writers and rags said to use.  I am sure the 150 grain round nose bullets out of a 270 would work just like my 308 or 30-06 with similar 180 grain bullets or a 6.5X55 with 140 or the 156 Round nose bullets.  
I really like the small entry holes and medium exit holes that my 308 would make in white tails and not have much blood shot meat.

IGM270,
And why would you want to deprive someone else of a great rifle by having it burried with you?  Since you are 90+ % water, the metal will rust, the stock will warp and if ever salvaged it will never be right again.  Take some kid shooting with you and leave it to him / her that will like and cherrish the gun.
I have a Iver Johnson that was left to me by one of my fathers friends.  It is the first shotgun I ever fired and first one I hit a phesant with (same shot)
It may be one of the cheaper guns in my collection but it is worth a mint to me.

Offline wareagleguy

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 01:04:53 PM »
I have a Marlin in 444 and have killed sevearl deer with it.  It is a great close "Woods" gun.
I also have the 30-06 and shoot 180 pills and it too is a great round.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Offline dpastordan

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 09:01:01 AM »
Besides the .35 Remington with its wonderful 200 gr bullet there is another round that is quiet effective and meets the criteria:  the .300 Savage.  Most folks use the 180 gr loading.  It works.  It is one reason used Savage Model 99's are hard to come by (and the same reason used Marlins in .35 Remington are hard to come by)...they just plain work.

Offline Drugstore Cowboy

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2010, 02:09:55 PM »
Lots of things work well. I very much agree that heavy for caliber at moderate speed. 20Ga slug, 180 gr 30/40 Krag, 250 gr Whalen, 140 gr 260 Rem or 286 gr 9.3x62. Simply avoid anything above 2900 fps.

Offline jimmyp50

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2010, 02:14:44 PM »
all Metaphysical pondering and musing...the best close range deer bullet is the one you have in your rifle when Mr. Big shows up, when did WT deer become hard to kill?
Jimmyp50Georgia

Offline nomosendero

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2010, 03:40:29 PM »
all Metaphysical pondering and musing...the best close range deer bullet is the one you have in your rifle when Mr. Big shows up, when did WT deer become hard to kill?

Yes & when did they require a certain bullet?  ;)
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Offline ColtM1911A1

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 09:39:04 AM »
I use and get game using the 35 Whelen in a Rem 750 carbine -- accurate, hard-hitting in a short platform if you trail at all. Sitting, I like the 350 Rem Mag in a light-weight Ruger M77/II in SS and synthetic...good luck

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 10:49:51 AM »
all Metaphysical pondering and musing...the best close range deer bullet is the one you have in your rifle when Mr. Big shows up, when did WT deer become hard to kill?

Yes & when did they require a certain bullet?  ;)
I took the question as do we need premium bullets for deer in the woods, and what bullet design works best for short shots?
Having hunted in the woods and shooting 3-6 deer a year when I was in college and having buddies come down to the farm and shoot the same.  I have seen quite a few deer hit and shot with all kinds of different projectiles.  The premium bullets were just starting to make their way to ammo companies when I was in college and of couse we had to use them.  I mostly shot 308, but did hunt with a 30-06, 6.5X55 Swede, and shotgun.
My firends came with everything from 257 Roberts, the mauser military rounds (6.5, 7mm, 7.65, and 8mm) the American military rounds (30-40K, 308, 30-06, and 45-70) the lever gun rounds (30-30, 32WS, 35 Rem), the pistol rounds in carbines (357 and 44), and the factory wild cats  243, 7-08, 270, and 358 Win.
No matter what we shot deer with the projectiles that were heavy for caliber and had either a flat or round nose seemed to work best on knocking deer down.  The pointy bullets had the deer running for a while and in the thick stuff it was sometimes hard to find the deer, till I found that the deer tend to run to the fields when shot and made desicions when no blood could be found easier when at a fork in trails.  Even with the pointy bullets or premium designs the deer were down in under 150 yards.

Offline 454Puma

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2010, 10:06:31 AM »
Yep I agree! I load my '06 in the 2500-2700 fps range for all my loads 150-180gr bullets!  No need to go faster as this is also where they are the most accurate as well. Same with the 30-30 150-170 going right around 2000 fps! The 8x57mm 2200-2400fps! Those are the sweet spots for both accuracy and bullet performance! Learned this after I shot my first muley doe with the '06 with a Speer 165 gr at about 80 yards!
Perfect broadside shot an the bullet completely blew up in the chest! Slowed the same bullet up to about 2600 fps and shot a buck at about the same distance and got complete pass through with the same shot placement!
One shot , One Kill

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2010, 12:29:05 PM »
Yep I agree! I load my '06 in the 2500-2700 fps range for all my loads 150-180gr bullets!  No need to go faster as this is also where they are the most accurate as well. Same with the 30-30 150-170 going right around 2000 fps! The 8x57mm 2200-2400fps! Those are the sweet spots for both accuracy and bullet performance! Learned this after I shot my first muley doe with the '06 with a Speer 165 gr at about 80 yards!
Perfect broadside shot an the bullet completely blew up in the chest! Slowed the same bullet up to about 2600 fps and shot a buck at about the same distance and got complete pass through with the same shot placement!

The "sweet spot" is heavily dependant on the bullet type as well as the particular rifle.

I've hand no problems with high velocity impacts but I use premium bullets that simply don't blow up.  They also work at low velocities (long range).
Coyote Hunter
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Offline mechanic

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2010, 01:22:37 PM »
I currently own only one 30-06, and seldom shoot it.   If I had to give up all but one gun, I would keep it.  It will kill anything on our continent.  It will certainly kill deer at close range.  Load 'er up with Remington Cor locs and fire away!  Want bigger game?  A heavier bullet will anchor Grizzley.
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Offline Varmintnut260

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2010, 03:19:46 PM »
Personally I am a fan of 308 case based cartridges, in a 243 its probably best to use partitions, in 308 i use ballistic tips, 260 and 7mm-08 i would use a accubond, ballistic tip or a pointed soft point. It depends on the situation to where I would place the shot. I have also seen 7mm mags, 450 marlins and the highly mentioned 30-06 (yes round nose soft pts) get deflected by the smallest branch or limb . In my experience shotgun slugs haven't deflected like the rifle bullets have.


IMO it's more of shot placement with w/e you feel comfortable using. Ive recently heard of a neighbor killing multiple deer with a 223 62gr fmj any where from 10-200 yrds, hes a neck and head shot shooter.

Offline bearmgc

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2010, 04:27:07 PM »
I have 2 favorite woods guns, and sometimes have difficulty deciding which to use. My Marlin 444Marlin guide gun with a low variable Weaver scope, especially good for elk in timber. I use the plain old Rem 240gr sp for deer, and either the Grizzly320gr WLNGC or Hornady Light Mag 265gr FP for elk. And my Marlin 375Win, with a Leupold 4x, a great deer caliber for the woods. I use either the winchester 200gr powerpoint or the Wisconsin Cartridge 220gr FP for deer.

Offline jamesrus

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2010, 11:01:55 AM »
well considering i just killed a doe on our hunting club at 250 yards with my marlin .35 remington lever action with a 3-9x40 bushnell scope, using lever revoloution 200 grain ammo, ill have to say this is my new short to medium range round.

Jamesrus

Offline S.S.

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2010, 06:07:46 AM »
.715 roundball out of my 12 bore rifle with 7 drams Fg behind it.

There ya' go.
Partial to my .58 Zouave though!
My 12 bore takes a .695 with a thin patch
but it is only for really heavy cover and super short range.
It is nasty with about 10 or so .36 caliber roundballs too.
Gotta' love big smoke-Belchers!
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
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Offline jdt48653

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2010, 03:30:46 PM »
how about this   11.15x58Rmm (43 spanish)

             click on photo

Offline jro45

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2010, 12:36:44 AM »
The best close range deer bullet for me would be 30/06 150gr.

Offline S.S.

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Re: The best close range-woods deer bullet?
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2010, 02:00:06 PM »
I passed up one of those .43 Spanish rifles once.
A shame I can't get my foot up high enough
To kick myself in the butt for it.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".