Too much to expect from one cartridge?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Small game hunting in cougar country.  Would there exist such a cartridge that one could use for small game, yet if one found themselves being stalked by a cougar wouldn't feel undergunned?

I.e. if you're out squirrel hunting, you'll likely be using a .22lr or .22WM.  But isn't that a bit light for cougar?

I've read that cats aren't like bears which require proportionally more medicine.  So maybe the sting from a .22 would be plenty to thwart the attack?

I've been experimenting with a .38spl Model '92 for squirrel.  It works great on squirrel.  I was thinking maybe that would be a better caliber then since you can pop small stuff just fine, but could feel a little more secure knowing you're shooting a 125 to 158 grain slug at a cougar.

Whatchoothink?

[John Traveler]

I'm certainly no expert at hunting cougars ("American mountain lions"), but I've talked to some that have hunted them a lot.

The cougar like all cats, have a highly developed nervous system.  In particular, the cougar is not difficlut to kill.  .22 LR and .22 WMR are commonly used to bag them.

Any of the standard and magnum pistol cartridges in revolvers are good for hunting the cougar:  .38 spl, .44 spl, .45 colt, .357 magnum, .44 magnum, etc.

John

[WD45]

never liked the 22 mag for squirrels especially with HP's. You can load a lot of them 38 specials for the price of a box of 22 mag now days.
That would also be a good nich for a 32-20 or 25-20 if you are downloading them some like your 38 special. just a little food for thought :-)

[Larry Gibson]

Black Jaque Janaviac

"Small game hunting in cougar country.  Would there exist such a cartridge that one could use for small game, yet if one found themselves being stalked by a cougar wouldn't feel undergunned?"

You bet there is!   A M94 or M336 in good old 30-30 will do just fine.  I have two small game loads I use in mine, which I use depends on what I'm hunting.  A 90 gr swaged or cast .312 SWC over 2.8 gr of Bullseye runs 800-900 fps and is great out to 100 yards, great for squirrels, grouse and rabbits you want to eat.  For the vermin type targets a cast 115-118 gr SWC over 7.5 - 8 gr of Unique will get you 1400-1500 fps and good terminal balistics.  Accuracy with either load out of a rifle in good condition is entirely adequate for small game hunting plus the rifles themselves are a joy to carry and use.

For serious social purpose use on a cougar a 170-180 gr FP at around 2000fps with 30 gr of H4895 will do nicely.  That is if you want to stick with cast bullets.  If not then any of the 150/170 gr factory loads will also do.  However I usually carry my own loads using Speer 130 gr FPs over a healthy dose of H335 for 2782 fps out of my M94 Legacy or 2500 fps out of my older M94 carbine.  

While many cougars are killed with .22/.22 mag RFs that is after they are run up a tree and kept at bay by dogs.  To handle a cougar that is hunting you is a different story.  A .22 or small game load may "turn" a cougar or other wise discourage it from eating you but what you have created is a wounded and probably pissed off dangerous animal.  The next person who runs into it may not be so lucky.  Better to finish the problem the first time and that requires "enough gun" or cartridge in this case.  

There is a great disparity between zero's with such loads so a good reliable and quickly adjustable sight is a must.  Thus I prefer a Lyman  aperture receiver sight on my M94s.  The old "thutty-thutty" will do quite nicely!!!

Larry Gibson

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

While many cougars are killed with .22/.22 mag RFs that is after they are run up a tree and kept at bay by dogs. To handle a cougar that is hunting you is a different story.

Good point.  Making the .38spl/.357mag, the .32-20, the .25-20, or your .30-30 idea an even wiser choice.

Wouldn't you think that a bullet weighing 120 grains and up, traveling between 800 and 1100 fps would be sufficient to "finish the job"?

It may not drop in its tracks like it would when hit with a full-house .30-30 or .357Mag.  But I wouldn't think it necessary.  All you'd need is to turn it away with a fatal shot.  

This is different from wounding it with a .22rf.  A .38spl through the shoulder and puncturing one lung would be sufficient for the cat to turn away, cover some ground, then die.  With the same shot a .22 might merely mess up the shoulder.

This would eliminate the need for re-chambering a high powered load, then re-adjusting your sights.  

Avoiding carrying a sidearm is what I'm looking for.  Just simpler and less weight without it.

[carolcann]

I've been close enough to lions that the grass was popping up from the tracks while I examined them. And once had a big desert tom watching me with ears laid flat back, from above while following a deep dry streambed in canyon country. How long he watched (stalked?) me before I listened to the hairs on my neck, and turned around to see him, I'll never know.

Anyone who tells you a .22LR is plenty for lions has not been very close to too many cats.

Self preservation is very different than shooting a treed, bayed cat from a tree while a guide backs you up with a 30-30 or twelve gauge.

Carry whatever you think you need to keep all your blood inside you under the worst imaginable encounter, statistics notwithstanding. I've shot 80lb madass dogs with a .38+P and wished I'd brought more gun. A healthy agrivated cat can go over 150 easily. If you're gonna put yourself in his domain, you decide.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Carolcann,

I value your input as having experience with big cats.  Thanks.

I did notice your comparison of dogs to cats.  Do you really think that's a good comparison.

Everything I've read about cougars is they aren't powerfully motivated.  A dog that is defending something will take an immense pounding before giving up.  Likewise a bear.

However, I just haven't heard of a cougar "defending" anything.  Every tale I read or heard has been cougars looking for dinner.  Almost any animal, dog, bear or cougar that is motivated by it's stomach to attack will turn away when it realizes it's prey is putting up a fight.

[Lawdog]

Black Jaque Janaviac,

I wouldn't trust the .38 Special to stop a Mountain Lion.  In fact I wouldn't trust one to stop a large dog.  With 30 years as an LEO I have seen some strange things.  Like the time down in Berkley when a guard dog turned on it's master who used his off duty snub nosed S&W M36 .38 Special to try and kill the dog(a large Doberman).  After shooting the dog four times in the chest with the muzzle against the dogs chest it was the fifth and last shot in the dog's mouth that finally stopped the attack.  The load the guard was using was a 125 gr. JHP from CCI.  That Doberman was somewhat smaller than a Mountain Lion.  Get something with more shocking power than the .38 Special.  Lawdog

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Lawdog,

While I'm not refuting your advice, could you provide some linkage that suggests a Mt. Lion is similar to a dog?

Does the difference between a defensive attack or an offensive attack have no merit?  So far as my reasoning tells me, a mad dog is not the same as a hungry cougar.

Are there a good number of cougar attacks in which the cougar was in a defensive mode?   I could see where a cougar on the defensive could be a very formidable oponent - but as of yet, I haven't heard of any cougars attacking out of defensive reasons.

[Lawdog]

Black Jaque Janaviac,

What I was trying to point out is that a Mountain Lion has heavier mussels than a Doberman.  It weights more than the Doberman.  Thus it stands to reason that due to the larger size of the animal the cartridge would have less effect.  The four chest shots in the Doberman were all through the lungs just missing the heart.  Also when a Mountain Lion attacks after a stalk it is a offensive attack, nothing defensive about it.  They attack when you are the most unaware.  You need something a little more than a pipsqueak .38 Special for defense.  For the last thirty years ending in 2001 there were 74 attacks by Mountain Lions- 14 ending in death in North America.  In just there were no deaths from lion attacks from 1910 through 1993.  In 1994 the following happened and was the first recorded death since 1909;

23 April. Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area. No one observed the attack, and hence there are conflicting hypotheses about what occurred.

Barbara's husband Pete Schoener says that the lion was probably hidden on a ledge above the trail and pounced on Barbara as she passed underneath the lion. The lion knocked her down a slope and she was badly wounded, but she fought the animal with her arms before she was killed. Then the lion dragged her farther before eating most of her body.

The accounts in the paper said that investigators theorize that the lion surprised her by sneaking within 20' behind her on the tight trail and then ambushing Schoener, knocking her 30' down an 80° slope. Indications are she already was badly wounded but briefly fought the animal there before the lion finished the kill.

(SDUT 5/8/94, A3; 5/13/94, A3; Pete Schoener, via an email from my sister Connie Vavricek)

If you want I can supply a list of the 74 attacks.  In all 74 cases the attacks were offensive in nature.  Lawdog

[Robert357]

OK, I'll add my 2 cents.  If you really want lots of power and then a moderate amount of power, handloading very light cast bullets with light powder loads for a 30-30 is the way to go.  Unless you get really lucky you will have some point of aim versus point of impact issues you will need to work out with your two loads.

Alternately, if you don't handload, there is something called a subcaliber insert.  One of my favorites is 32 ACP in a 30-30 housing.  Where I picked mine up was from a guy up in Alaska who manufactures them.  I forget his name or the name of the company but it is three letters that stand for something like Sub Caliber Adapter or something roughly similar.  

The 32 ACP bullet, especially if lead, can squeeze and scream its way down a standard 308 Bore.  You will need a small stick or nail to knock the spent brass out of the adapter.  Then you can load another  32 ACP into the adapter and then chamber that by hand for your light game.  This also will hae a point of aim versus point of impact issue if your rifle is sighted in for standard 30-30 loads

[gunnut69]

Cougars are predators and seldon attack prey they aren't sure they can kill.  The jogger and most of the others were likely attacked from behind and were probably mostly women and children.  The best defense against a cougar attack is awareness.  They will not normally attack an adult human that is aware of their presence.  The rise in attacks against humans came is concert with the ban on cougar hunting in kalifornia.  The problem with a defensive weapon is whether of not you'll get to use it.  The cougar usually kills with a bite to the base of the brain/back of neck.  Remember cougar attacks are still very uncommon and will usually not be pressed as would the attack of an agressive dog.  Loosing their fear of man has made the big cats more dangerous as has the increase in their numbers and the resulting severe lack of suitable habitat.  The usual attacker is a juvenile male who is a poor hunter and living in marginal habitat thru pressure from established adult males.  A 22 rifle would be quite adequate protection should you have the need but the key will be retaining the rifle thru the initial attack of the cat from behind.  A handgun in a holster is more likely to be retained but just surviving the intial onslault is still a matter of awareness and luck.  and smallish 38 revolver or an autoloading pistol would provide a bit better chance of retention.. and plenty of power.   Don't let the presnce of a predator deter your enjoyment, just stay aware and fight back..

[w30wcf]

Black Jaque Janaviac,
I'm with LMG and his recommendation of small game loads in the .30-30
for small game and the standard load for cougar or big game harvesting.

In fact, Winchester, U.M.C. and others from 1896-1925 or so, offered "short range" cartridges  "for small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary"for just that purpose.

Also, I definitely think that the .357 Magnum using 180 gr. LBT  large flat nosed bullets at 1,500-1,700 f.p.s. in a rifle would put the lights out very quickly on any cougar that walked this earth.  Federal offers this bullet in their cast core hunting ammunition.  Obviously, your .38 special small game loads would then work interchangeably.

Is your '92 chambered  for the .357 and you use  .38 Special's or  did you have one especially madein .38 Special?  

w30wcf

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

My '92 will handle .357s just fine.  So interchanging .38s and .357 is a realistic option, except you'd have to deal with aim adjustments.  Although that might not be so bad.  Considering the circumstances, you probably would be shooting at very close range - so the change from .38 to .357 might not be so great.