Author Topic: How hot can you load a handy 45/70? (Read 1213 times)

Austin1 · « **on:** November 05, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »

Not sure if this has been brought up I searched but could not find. Can a guy load a H&R as hot a a ruger? that's without stressing things. I was thinking of getting a H&R for a truck gun buddy has one in a 30/30 and it's a tack driver for $300.00 and he loads it hot with 748 to push a 150gr at almost 2400fps and his yote load is a 110 gr at 2650fps.
They are fun and grow on you so I want one in a big gun has to be 45/70 or .444. The 500 is out because of price of bullets, even brass is way too much.
PS don't believe what the factory 30/30 load data says they are not much faster than a 170gr have not tried the new 160 Hornady though.

maglvr44 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 05, 2009, 05:02:06 PM »

How hot can you load a handy 45/70?
First off, be certain it is a SB2 action and not a SB1 that someone has switched a 45-70 barrel to.
After that, it depends on the gun, start low and work up, watching for signs of stress / pressure, your gun will tell you when it has had enough.
Sorry, but there's no cut and dried answer to that question, no 2 guns are the same.

fredster22 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 05, 2009, 05:06:25 PM »

As hot as you can handle! Buy one, shoot a box of Buffalo Bore thru it and then come back and ask again. Seriously the Handi will
handle any book loads in reputable manuals if you can. Fred

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2009, 05:07:07 PM »

Welcome! If you check the FAQs and Help sticky, you'll find that question answered in detail, spend lots of time reading there, lots of info for Handi newbies.

Tim

Westbound · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2009, 05:40:52 PM »

I've put a couple of "light" Ruger loads through mine. No more. The gun was fine, but my shoulder was not!!
I'm moving a 405gr hard cast bullet at over 2000fps and stay within the Levergun loads. It kicks plenty.
I can't imagine needing more. That load would work for a truck gun, even if you drive your truck through the zoo on the day the cages fail.

kevinsmith5 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2009, 12:37:38 AM »

I've pushed a 550 gr load up to 1900 fps before in my BC. Gun was fine, I had purple bruising and could hardly feel my fingers after three shots. (And that was with 19 ounces of lead in the bolt hole and a lace on recoil pad.) Your limit is NOT the gun.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2009, 02:31:12 AM »

Handloader's Digest, Ninth Editon, ''Case Head Thrust'' article by J. D. Jones, on page 60 he shows a .223 Rem' and a .45-70 in their respective T/C Contender barrels. The wording with the pic's warns about the thrust from the larger case head being able to stretch Contender frames when ''hot-loaded''. He said the smaller case head from the .223 at its ''50,000+CUP pressure'' was reasonable, however. It's a somewhat complicated matter, per this article, which surprised me. Then again, J.D. Jones has done enough with 'standing-breach' firearms (Contenders/Encores/Handi's are those type......) to know of what he speaks.

What surprises me is that the thrust from the case seemingly is more than just ''working pressure'' of a given cartridge times surface area of the case head......

I doubt that a Handi' is made of better steel and heat treating than a Contender was.

ss'

peternap · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2009, 02:52:18 AM »

It is a complicated formula and I did spring a Contender frame years ago.
Tim commented on the Handi's inability to handle the thrut from some big boress, in a thread I started about the possibility of chambering in 50BMG.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:02:50 AM »

Quote from: safetysheriff on November 06, 2009, 02:31:12 AM

Handloader's Digest, Ninth Editon, ''Case Head Thrust'' article by J. D. Jones, on page 60 he shows a .223 Rem' and a .45-70 in their respective T/C Contender barrels. The wording with the pic's warns about the thrust from the larger case head being able to stretch Contender frames when ''hot-loaded''. He said the smaller case head from the .223 at its ''50,000+CUP pressure'' was reasonable, however. It's a somewhat complicated matter, per this article, which surprised me. Then again, J.D. Jones has done enough with 'standing-breach' firearms (Contenders/Encores/Handi's are those type......) to know of what he speaks.

What surprises me is that the thrust from the case seemingly is more than just ''working pressure'' of a given cartridge times surface area of the case head......

I doubt that a Handi' is made of better steel and heat treating than a Contender was.

Actually a handie is quite a lot stronger than a contender and can handle any load you can find, My shoulder can't however. It much prefers trapdoor loads.

ss'

peternap · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2009, 03:32:21 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on November 06, 2009, 03:02:50 AM

Quote from: safetysheriff on November 06, 2009, 02:31:12 AM
Handloader's Digest, Ninth Editon, ''Case Head Thrust'' article by J. D. Jones, on page 60 he shows a .223 Rem' and a
Actually a handie is quite a lot stronger than a contender and can handle any load you can find, My shoulder can't however. It much prefers trapdoor loads.

ss'

I agree that they are stronger. Ed Hubel is using the SB2 for some of his 12FH loads that go up to 25,000.
Some of these slugs are 1000 grains. My lowly Blammy shells use a 650 grain slug at 1700 FPS.

That said, I agree with your Trapdoor loads. There's a lot of research and my own results with the 45/70, shows that heavy cast slugs work better on Deer at the 1500 to 1700 FPS range, than the hotter loads.

Austin1 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2009, 04:58:46 AM »

Thanks guy's, this is a great site! I am in Canada that's why the $300.00 price tag on the H&R.
I know every gun is different but I am glad I would not have to stick with factory spec ammo. I had a Ruger Number 3 45/70 and regret selling it. I have herd that the Throats are a bit longer on the new Handy that's good as I plan on shooting 500gr hard cast bullets. I hear ya when you say load it until your body say's ouch that hert lol my ruger was like that bony little gun big caliber.
As I am typing this I am watching a yote coming across the feild my trap door springfeild is sitting on the coffee table loaded with black powder of course and a 460gr paper patched slug

Austin1 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:10:16 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 05, 2009, 05:07:07 PM

Welcome! If you check the FAQs and Help sticky, you'll find that question answered in detail, spend lots of time reading there, lots of info for Handi newbies.

Tim

Your right I could spend hours on here then the wife would slap me in the back of the head. I have about a 150 .307 win brass brand new I think I will look at a used 30/30 handi for my next build a toy but still will get the 45/70.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:15:16 AM »

Good thinking, you can't have too many Handis!!

Tim

Austin1 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:23:04 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 06, 2009, 05:15:16 AM

Good thinking, you can't have too many Handis!!

Tim

You guy's are really bad

My best friend with the 30/30 just bought a 17 hmr I would call him a handi head! Temps right now are in the 50/60° range and yep gophers are out! should be fun.Two weeks ago there was 4'' of snow on the ground. I have to make some phone calls to see if the gun shops in Calgary have a 45/70 handi I want the Syn stock one,as it will be a working rifle.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:27:38 AM »

Some of us are really bad!!!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,180844.msg1098875468.html#msg1098875468

UPDATE: 31 OCT 2009

205 Handi-Holics.

1,167 Complete Guns.

219 Extra Barrels.

10 Extra Frames.

6.2 per Handi-Holic

Updated Handi-holic-ism Level Chart:

Intern Handi-holic 1
Average Handi-holic 6
Journeyman Handi-holic 12
Senior Handi-holic 17
Master Handi-holic 22

Terminal NUTS Handi-holic! 33

Note: Please Handi-holics, even ones with only one Handi, we need your numbers (number of Handi-holics is more important than the Handi’s themselves, counting the guns is just fun). Besides we all started with just one Handi.

peternap · « **Reply #15 on:** November 06, 2009, 05:50:52 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 06, 2009, 05:27:38 AM

Some of us are really bad!!!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,180844.msg1098875468.html#msg1098875468

UPDATE: 31 OCT 2009

205 Handi-Holics.

1,167 Complete Guns.

219 Extra Barrels.

10 Extra Frames.

6.2 per Handi-Holic

Updated Handi-holic-ism Level Chart:

Intern Handi-holic 1
Average Handi-holic 6
Journeyman Handi-holic 12
Senior Handi-holic 17
Master Handi-holic 22

Terminal NUTS Handi-holic! 33

Note: Please Handi-holics, even ones with only one Handi, we need your numbers (number of Handi-holics is more important than the Handi’s themselves, counting the guns is just fun). Besides we all started with just one Handi.

I might need therapy!
I swore I wasn't going to buy anymore a couple of weeks ago because of the SB2 shotgun/rifle difference...and I'm putting #6 together today

safetysheriff · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2009, 02:42:11 AM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob on November 06, 2009, 03:02:50 AM

Quote from: safetysheriff on November 06, 2009, 02:31:12 AM
Handloader's Digest, Ninth Editon, ''Case Head Thrust'' article by J. D. Jones, on page 60 he shows a .223 Rem' and a .45-70 in their respective T/C Contender barrels. The wording with the pic's warns about the thrust from the larger case head being able to stretch Contender frames when ''hot-loaded''. He said the smaller case head from the .223 at its ''50,000+CUP pressure'' was reasonable, however. It's a somewhat complicated matter, per this article, which surprised me. Then again, J.D. Jones has done enough with 'standing-breach' firearms (Contenders/Encores/Handi's are those type......) to know of what he speaks.

What surprises me is that the thrust from the case seemingly is more than just ''working pressure'' of a given cartridge times surface area of the case head......

I doubt that a Handi' is made of better steel and heat treating than a Contender was.

ss'

Actually a handie is quite a lot stronger than a contender and can handle any load you can find, My shoulder can't however. It much prefers trapdoor loads.

where does the idea about the Handi' being stronger than a Contender come from ? The T/C Contender Hunter Package in '96 Gun Digest is shown as chambered for the .375 Win' which was rated for 50,000CUP.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2009, 05:01:38 AM »

Just take a look at the TC Contender list of chamberings, you won't find 270 Win, 30-06, 500 S&W, that's why TC makes the Encore. The 375Win has a small case head, same size as the 30-30.

Tim

http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_contender_rifle.php

safetysheriff · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2009, 01:32:09 PM »

Tim,

I knew that the Encore was the stronger version. I didn't think about how small that .375 Win' case head is. I should have, however. I use the old John Taffin trick of making heavy-duty .30-30 brass out of .375 Win's with a FL' .30-30 die. The difference is significant: 38,000 cup vs' 50,000 cup ratings for the two cartridges.....with the .375 obviously being the stronger brass.

My mistake.

Take care,

ss'

BTW' : my compliments on your generousity with continuing to be a monitor after all this time.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2009, 01:47:10 PM »

Thanks, my pleasure ss, you've beem MIA off and on for the last year or two, where ya been anyway?

I use 375Win brass for my 30-30AI Handi, I push the QuickLoad calculated pressure to near 375Win pressures and get nearly 2900fps with 125gr Sierras, maybe someday I'll even cross paths with a blacktail buck to see how they perform!!

Tim

safetysheriff · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2009, 01:15:36 AM »

Tim,

I had to focus my energies elsewhere. I had a big, positive change on the job; but I also had some health issues. Shooting and hunting had to go on the back burner...

ss'

cwlongshot · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2009, 01:40:58 AM »

The gist of everyone's experiences is it will handle sane loads better than most shooters...

I like to load mine to about 15-1600fps with 400gr sp. I reserve the top loads for my Browning SS and Marlin 1895's. Just to be clear, this has nothing to do with inherent strength, they just seem to handle the recoil much better.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2009, 04:16:12 AM »

Quote from: safetysheriff on November 08, 2009, 01:15:36 AM

Tim,

I had to focus my energies elsewhere. I had a big, positive change on the job; but I also had some health issues. Shooting and hunting had to go on the back burner...

ss'

Glad to hear about the job, hope you're on top of the health issues.

Tim