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Offline Questor

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Noteworthy about Koran
« on: November 07, 2009, 03:46:55 AM »
In case you're reading the Koran to get familiar with the religion of peace, keep in mind that it's almost impossible to find a faithful English translation of the Koran. This is because the language is toned down. For example, in Arabic, there is much about killing the infidel. In the English translations the terms are fighting unbelievers.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2009, 05:44:28 AM »
Excellent point!
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 09:08:42 AM »
i would stronly suspect that to be the truth.

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2009, 09:39:51 AM »
Having read the Koran in English and Arabic; I can tell you that there is very little difference.

Offline Dee

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 02:49:55 AM »
So we have two gentlemen here (TM7 & alsaqr) that not only SPEAK Arabic, but READ it also. That is quite an accomplishment guys.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline powderman

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 03:10:16 AM »
The koran was wtitten by mohamed, and authored by satan himself. It is basicly a training manual for satans disciples, giving instructions on how to rid the world of Christians, Jews, and all who refuse to bow down to the devils ways. Satan failed to kill Jesus, so, one day he saw a child molesting pedophile named mohamed and decided to use him to destroy all that Jesus Christ taught and built. He failed again, but has managed to corrupt the minds of millions of people. Satan can never win, but he will take as many souls as he can because he knows his days are coming to an end. Islam is a cancer, a boil on the butt of the entire world, and should be treated as such. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Questor

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2009, 04:08:54 AM »
I got my information over a period of time from a Lebanese Moslem, two Saudi Moslems, and, most recently, an Islamic scholar who specializes in the interpretation of the Koran.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 07:52:14 AM »
Surely those folks who actually are muslims and who speak the language as their native tongue as your sources do Rudy can't be as knowledgeable on the subject as our resident muslim expert TM7 and his ilk.


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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 09:43:22 AM »
I speak Arabic, but never learned to read it.  Many discussions on the Koran with Muslims led me to believe the Koran is full of many rules for Muslims to live by.  Yet for every rule, there are three exceptions.  Meaning, if a Muslim man breaks any of those rules, he can be excused by a Cleric or Elder using one of the exceptions.

Living over there and traveling around alone, I saw lots of things that made me sick.  I saw women beheaded simply because her husband was tired of her and wanted a younger wife.  He had three witnesses came in and swear she had an affair.  Chop, off with her head.  And the men of the village laughed about it, saying he only wanted a younger woman, the old one was always ticking him off.

I could go on and on about things I saw, not heard about, but saw.  And things I talked about to local Muslims, getting their prospective and view point.  I'm very prejudiced, I don't like any of them.

                                                      NUKE EM TILL THEY GLOW!!!!!
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 10:24:37 AM »
Having read the Koran in English and Arabic; I can tell you that there is very little difference.
.
That's my opinion too. And the verses of violence and racism are no worse then the other religious dogmas, but are often taken out of context for political reasons...certainly the talmud being the leading violent and racist handbook of the area.


..TM7

  If you can't speak the language how do you have an opinion between the two versions? Please don't ever defend me in court. An attorney that squeaked by the BAR would have chewed that one up if you were on the stand. Obviously, you have never read the Arabic version so how do you know if it is similar to the English version? Third party, no doubt?  You have very good writing, verbal, and vocabulary skills, TM7. BS'ing through a topic using a talent for writing and having no knowledge of such topic is something I detect very readily, as I am technically classified as a professional writer(first novel published at 19). Just a thought......

Offline Dee

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 10:57:14 AM »
So we have two gentlemen here (TM7 & alsaqr) that not only SPEAK Arabic, but READ it also. That is quite an accomplishment guys.
[/quote
I think you are pulling an 'Ironglow" on me here.  ..

Actually TM7, I am not pulling ANYTHING. I am blunt and to the point if nothing else. Because of alsaqr saying that he had READ the Koran in English and Arabic; and stating that there was little difference in the two, YOU DID IMPLY by saying; And the verses of violence and racism are no worse then the other religious dogmas, ect. THAT YOU HAD "ALSO READ BOTH VERSIONS".
Now whether you INTENDED TO MISLEAD or not is the question. I was IMPRESSED, not CONTENTIOUS in my comment. So let us put the dog in the correct kennel here.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline 93marlin

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2009, 12:23:35 PM »
Are there Muslims with radical views?? Heck Yes !!!!! Are there Catholics with radical views ?? Heck Yes !!!! Any group has it's share of idiots and fools, even gun owners and hunters. Be careful about using a wide brush when painting opinions. As I get older I've come to realize that if all of us had the same views and beliefs, what boring and dull place it would be.
All I'm saying is, as gun owners and hopefully, sportsman, we have all been painted with that wide brush wielded by uninformed people with a noisy platform with which they can demean and vilify gun owners or anyone else that doesn't see things the same way as has been deemed "correct".
 Be careful not to fall into that same cesspool. This country was founded on many lofty ideals including freedom of religion, ALL RELIGIONS....

While I may not agree with some of the views expressed here or in the Quran or the Bible for that matter, I will defend the right of the individual to express them.
That also is one of the ideals that this country was founded on.   

Offline powderman

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2009, 12:25:34 PM »
SOURDOUGH. Good post. First hand experiences like that are what America needs to hear. Thanks for sharing. They are a Godless cult. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline alsaqr

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2009, 03:02:56 PM »
Quote
So we have two gentlemen here (TM7 & alsaqr) that not only SPEAK Arabic, but READ it also. That is quite an accomplishment guys.


I think so.  It took me three years to read and become conversant in Arabic-two dialects.

Offline Hodr

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2009, 03:07:56 PM »
TM7;
I find it confusing that you post comment on the Qur'an written in the original and then state you do not read Arabic.  I also note that you state the Talmud is the leading violent and racist handbook of the area.  Do you read or speak Hebraic ?  The Talmud is an oral tradition history going back thousands of years, while the Qur'an is the direct written testimony of Mohammed taken down in written form.  I suppose that your faith is something given you by direct revelation rather than study of either of these in the original written script.  You do not seem to be willing to take the time to seek and verify before you cast what you "know". (Example: not being aware that distallation of high proof spirits is persian in origin, not european)  I would take you much more seriously if you had taken the time to punctuate your opinion with specifics. I am also curious as to where you studied comparitive religion, where I studied the three "Abrahamic" religions in this forum were just the tip of the iceberg.

Please don't ask what the point is, this is merely an observation and reflection of the posts in this forum chain.

blindhari
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Offline Brett

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2009, 03:34:16 PM »
Are there Muslims with radical views?? Heck Yes !!!!! Are there Catholics with radical views ?? Heck Yes !!!! Any group has it's share of idiots and fools, even gun owners and hunters. Be careful about using a wide brush when painting opinions.

I think that there is a distinct difference here.  As far as I know the Catholic Bible, the Jewish Torah, the Book of Mormon or any other religions holy books condone... make that encourage the murder of non-believers in their brand of religion.   I do believe that the Muzzies hold the exclusive rights to that one.  ;)
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Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 03:44:53 PM »
Jesus said to do good to your enemies, pray for them.  He said if one doesn't listen to the Gospel, dust off your feet and go to another town.  We do have a right to defend ourselves if attacked whether be ourselves, family or our nation.  We are not to start a fight, and we are to be peacemakers.  Traditionally this is what America has done.  We didn't start WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, but we either went in to help the weak ones who were attack, to give them freedom or defended ourselves after we were attacked.  We didn't start a war with the Islamic extremists, they did.  We need to finish it, not grow weary and walk away. 

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 03:55:59 PM »
I've also read the Quran in Arabic, as well as the Hadith, and done some post-grad work in Jordan in Arabic. Been using that language and a few dialects for about 20 years. I've been all over the Muslim world and found few Muslims that could read the Quran, few Imams too. They are taught to memorize orally in most of the world, so alot of changes get made along the way and they add stuff. It's also not exhaustive like the Bible where if the topic isn't mentioned there is still a principle you can apply. Muslims are often left to make it up. They also value the book but not the contents.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2009, 04:51:05 PM »
In other words SYMBOLISM is worth more to the Muslim than truth, where in my faith (Christianity) truth is in the scriptures, and we are encouraged to "rightly divide the word"? That would explain so called "honor killings" would it not?
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2009, 05:43:15 PM »
Honor killings are not universally Muslim, but they are tribal. Many non-Muslim tribes practice honor killings.
Half the crap spewing from minarets at noon Friday all around the world is being read by an untrained volunteer, written by a marginally trained Imam with an agenda. Often it's a recording of same.
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Offline Hodr

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2009, 07:05:55 PM »
A thank you to the two previous posts.
I was raised Methodist in a small town.  When I was seven they wanted me in Sunday school for instruction.  After a couple of weeks I asked dad why the leaders kept reading a bit and saying, "This means" instead of just reading it.  Dad gave me a King James to read and by the time I was eight, I was taken out of Sunday school and marched up to the main church to be delivered to my parents as disruptive.  Disruptive meant asking why half the time my King James bible did not include anywhere what I was being told was in there.  After I was thrown out of Sunday school I was in a larger city library and picked up a King James from a different publisher.  Now I had a real problem because the two books either were in error with each other or someone got it wrong.  At this point I started reading other tracts on other faiths.  At less than 10 years of age I had my revaltion.
1     God never wrote a book and published it. 
2     All books are written by men.
3     I am in the end responsible for my beliefs.
4     I have a firm belief in God and will answer for my actions.
Since that time I have tried to listen and learn from all sources knowing that some time in the future I would meet my creator, not in fear or rapture but still trying to learn more. 

blindhari
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Offline Clodhopper

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2009, 07:20:03 PM »
A thank you to the two previous posts.
I was raised Methodist in a small town.  When I was seven they wanted me in Sunday school for instruction.  After a couple of weeks I asked dad why the leaders kept reading a bit and saying, "This means" instead of just reading it.  Dad gave me a King James to read and by the time I was eight, I was taken out of Sunday school and marched up to the main church to be delivered to my parents as disruptive.  Disruptive meant asking why half the time my King James bible did not include anywhere what I was being told was in there.  After I was thrown out of Sunday school I was in a larger city library and picked up a King James from a different publisher.  Now I had a real problem because the two books either were in error with each other or someone got it wrong.  At this point I started reading other tracts on other faiths.  At less than 10 years of age I had my revaltion.
1     God never wrote a book and published it. 
2     All books are written by men.

AMEN!
3     I am in the end responsible for my beliefs.
4     I have a firm belief in God and will answer for my actions.
Since that time I have tried to listen and learn from all sources knowing that some time in the future I would meet my creator, not in fear or rapture but still trying to learn more. 

blindhari

Offline powderman

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2009, 02:24:23 AM »
Are there Muslims with radical views?? Heck Yes !!!!! Are there Catholics with radical views ?? Heck Yes !!!! Any group has it's share of idiots and fools, even gun owners and hunters. Be careful about using a wide brush when painting opinions.

I think that there is a distinct difference here.  As far as I know the Catholic Bible, the Jewish Torah, the Book of Mormon or any other religions holy books condone... make that encourage the murder of non-believers in their brand of religion.   I do believe that the Muzzies hold the exclusive rights to that one.  ;)

BRETT. YEP. Satans instruction manual pretty well has a lock on murdering non believers. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2009, 02:40:17 AM »
I am not real knowlegeble on the subject but was in Kuwait after the first war. I worked for the Corps of Engineers our project was to aid in the recovery, mainly fix up the public buildings, roads and utilities. We had some Kuwaitis working in the office and I met a number outside the office. I think most were nice people. They got big government allowances so could afford to travel so were probably a lot more westernized than most Muslims. However, the men were pretty lazy by our standards. Also, on Fridays (their day of rest) when they were out of the office one of our guys read the Koran and discussed the "funny rules" they were supposed to live by. I recall it said something about that they should not hang out with Jews or Christions as they could not be friends. My opinion is that Islam is a religion which for some reason or another is easily taken over by sadistic bullies. The nice guys are on the bottom and can't seem to stand up to them. They may say they don't want violence but allways side with fellow Muslims whether they are right or wrong.

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2009, 02:49:06 AM »
I have seen the Catholic Bible, and it doesn't condone killing of non-believers.  I am Protestant and nowhere does Jesus condone killing of unbelievers for unbeliefs sake alone.  Old Testiment Torah, yes if they are in the way of God's plan for them to occupy the Holy Land.  Now Christians were given a New Covenant or Testiment to spread the Gospel of Good News that Jesus died for our sins and anyone can become a Christian.  Yes the Catholic church had problems in the middle ages with inquisitions against non-Catholic believers, Protestants, and Jews, and the crusades were started by the Bysintine Empire (East Roman Empire) to fight the Muslims because they took the Holy Land away from them and were pushing them back.  They called the west for help.  So, the Catholic church started the crusades, first to help the Bysentines, then later to acquire the holy land back.  Muslims on the other hand swep across north Africa and into Spain and got converts by the tip of a sword.  Later the Turks out of central Asia converted and came through and defeated the Bysintine Empire and spread Islam into modern Albania, Kosovo, and Bosnia.  The Austrians and Greeks finally pushed them out of South east Europe as well as the Russians pushing the out of the Ukraine and southern Russia and out of the modern Georgia and Armenia.  

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2009, 10:39:31 AM »
It is written in the Hadith, which is the official commentary of the Muslim faith, that the Qu'ran was not initially written down in the form it has today. There were 4 primary versions, and numerous handwritten copies of those 4 versions scattered all over the expanding empire, each believed to include significant doctrinal difference. The 4 primary were written by 4 of Mohammed's closest friends. Caliph Uthmann was concerned that with so many versions around, disunity would quickly arise, so he ordered all copies destroyed, and commissioned an official version created from the memory of a select few. Remember Mohammed was illiterate, so all written versions were dictated by him to a listener, and the Hadith says these dictated manuscripts were not full versions of the entire Qu'ran. So with the order out to burn all existing copies of the Qu'ran (which is lamented by many scholars in the Ummah), the official version was produced and distributed to the soldiers advancing the faith in Asia and Africa. All of this is recorded within Islam's own documents, and freely available to anyone to find for themselves.

The discovery in Yemen of these early copies of the Qu'ran were made by a multinational archaeological team, and the documents themselves were quickly acquired by Muslim officials. Again, to preserve unity of the faith. It is very difficult to find alot of information on this stuff; I came across it in an Arabic library in Jordan.

But that's really not how they preserve unity of the faith. Not unlike Latin in the early Church, Arabic has become the means by which the "clergy" control the "laity." Few Muslims are functionally literate in Arabic, much less Quranic Arabic which is like Shakepearean English is to Bubba. They do not follow along in their pew qurans as the Imam preaches. Only devout students learn more than surahs by memory, which is what most Muslims learn. And the sermons are very seldom from the Quran ... I was allowed to read some sermon manuscripts by an Imam in Al Anbar. Stuff you'd say to a sunday school class, but not doctrinal. I've also heard insurgent sermons which were all politics and death. The people don't know the holy language to be able to refute the teachings. If you look at those societies that do have high literacy rates in Arabic, they are highly westernized and the young people reject the faith. I've worked with Muslim college students in Muslim countries ... the conservative ones were clinging to the values, not the faith. The liberal ones were abandoning the values, and never had the faith.

For example, there's a popular ad on Jordanian TV of two roomates, 20 something males. One is clean shaven, in hip western clothes, sitting at his computer, playing a video game when the call to prayer goes off. The other is in full white dishdash, with hajji cap, flowing beard. He goes out on the balcony to pray, while the other laughs and turns back to his game. He has a heart attack, and they show his body at the bottom of the grave in darkness while the family is crying. Fades out with "repent and pray" in Arabic.

Mohammed wanted to use Islam to unify the tribes, which is why he destroyed all the idols but one, which remains in the Kabah, in honor of Allah, a Christian term used by Arab Christians in the Eastern church for 6 centuries prior to Mohammed. He failed, so to keep the tribes in unity, they use a common enemy (White Satan), exploit ignorance, and hold special knowledge (gnosticism) to the inner circle. Its not a faith, there is no guarantee of eternal life in the Qu'ran; no forgiveness of sins, nothing. If God is having a bad day when you stand before Him, your good works meant nothing. Its a tool used to build an empire out of chaos; always has been, always will be.

But is Islam any different than any liberation philosophy to come down the pipe? Its a large threat sure, but the larger threat here is the selfishness of average ignorant people that makes them easily suckered by any school of thought that appeals to that selfishness, elevates their sense of importance, permits them to hurt people they don't like, maybe gratifies sexual dominance, and makes them better than someone.



held fast

Offline Mohawk

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2009, 11:06:52 AM »
Surely those folks who actually are muslims and who speak the language as their native tongue as your sources do Rudy can't be as knowledgeable on the subject as our resident muslim expert TM7 and his ilk.
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Well, perhaps Rudy can question his islamic sources a little more and get back to us with a little more specific information on what they are getting at or mean.  Perhaps TNelson and alsqar can add more info about the discussion. It is always noteworthy when an anglo has mastered the arab languages enough to read and comprehend its finer nuances.
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Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: TM7 on Yesterday at 08:22:24 AM
Quote from: alsaqr on November 07, 2009, 03:39:51 PM
Having read the Koran in English and Arabic; I can tell you that there is very little difference.

.
That's my opinion too. And the verses of violence and racism are no worse then the other religious dogmas, but are often taken out of context for political reasons...certainly the talmud being the leading violent and racist handbook of the area.


..TM7


  If you can't speak the language how do you have an opinion between the two versions? Please don't ever defend me in court. An attorney that squeaked by the BAR would have chewed that one up if you were on the stand. Obviously, you have never read the Arabic version so how do you know if it is similar to the English version? Third party, no doubt?  You have very good writing, verbal, and vocabulary skills, TM7. BS'ing through a topic using a talent for writing and having no knowledge of such topic is something I detect very readily, as I am technically classified as a professional writer(first novel published at 19). Just a thought......

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Actually, mohawk, I've been a student of comparative religions for a number of years. This entails a study of culture and history as well. In another thread I asked TN about the accuracy or editorialization of the qu'ran from whence it was revealed because it is often taught that it is unchanged and about as original as the day it was put down on paper....this he disagreed with citing an example of some version discovered in Yemen...which was subsequently destroyed.  Nonetheless, this was an impression held by western scholars that it was pretty original, but he is suggesting it too has been meddled with. My knowlege of the arab languages is lacking, but my understanding is it is more 'poetic' than our language which is more 'prosaic' and are difficult to translate literally. However, when I see quotes form the qu'ran citing call to violence by the war party, death to unbelievers, etc. they usually don't check out as to 'context'.  Of course, I'm working from English versions.
Moreover, when it comes to some really violent and horrid stuff emanating from the traditions of the three Abrahamic religions I say the talmud takes the prize.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dee....naw,,,,that was instigating....Perhaps, I should have said, ''that was my impression, too". In any case, that's still my impression about the qu'ran.  Any believer of one of the 3 Abrahamic religions should likely look at the other two's writings....since they are all pretty comparable.


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Blindhari....I think your point is that only those that study text in orignal languages and formats are valid students.  ;)

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TN...in the few years I traveled around the ME, I too found that illiteracy was the rule. Illiterate and impoverished people can be led more easily. Do you think that among the moslem intelligencia there therefore is a more fair and peaceful understanding of islam separated from their politicians and rabblerousers...?  BTW, alot of folks here forget that the ME only represents about 15% of the islamic faiths. Your points about the local and cultural affects on the peoples bbeyond faith is not often understood in this country.


....TM7

  Be a student, as you say, all you want. You have convinced little and impressed me even less. But, do your thing. The extent of the game show "Jeopardy" never ceases amaze me  ::)   Again, you use adjectives and a vocabulary to state your point but there is no basis to it, TM7. Are you a Wikipedia recording or do you wish to present the applications of information you tend to deploy as the facts only known to you?.... Please state the facts without literary BS..., TM7...  If you want to be so "secretive" then don't be surprised that when you rattle off sentence after sentence of alliteration, while keeping your "secret location", that is no secret, that people don't take you seriously and tend to flame you. I have no problem with you, personally. I just can't understand why you dwell on BS and not just talk hunting, fishing, and the outdoors as this site was developed for. Why don't you go to a site that will welcome your BS, like Yahoo or something.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2009, 11:35:43 AM »
If only 15% of Muslims are radical, why are we having so many honor killings, and other killings here in the US.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2009, 11:56:01 AM »
If only 15% of Muslims are radical, why are we having so many honor killings, and other killings here in the US.

Sourdough, I think the answer to that question is two-fold.

1. All honor killings are tribal/family. Not all tribes/families are Muslim. Not all honor killings are within Muslim communities; some research indicates that it occurs as frequently outside Islam as it does within, but always within a tribal/family context.

2. Islam may be claimed by as high as 2 billion people on the planet, if you count all the tribes who have no clue what Islam is all about, but consider it a part of their identity. (like a lot of Dutch Lutherans, Irish Catholics, etc.) The overwhelming majority of them live outside the US, and honor killings there do not draw media attention. It is a rare thing here, and therefore garners more media attention.

I was trying to enjoy dinner in a restraunt once in Azerbaijan (where they kill Muslim missionaries), as the TV on the wall showed the live stoning of a young woman accused of adultery - a community honor killing, not by Muslims but by animists and Zoroastrians.

I'm no defender of Islam, but I think we miss the bigger issue if we assume that honor killings come from Islam.
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Offline teamnelson

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Re: Noteworthy about Koran
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2009, 01:45:06 PM »
I think one thing you don't discuss is the fact that most islamics definitely believe that the west, especially israel and the USA, are primarily at war with them because of religious rivilary, and to further israeli desires; and that the bad deal the Palestinians got is what is waiting for the rest of islam. This is pretty easily verified by the sentiments found on this board and the belief sytems of the evangelicals. I also get the impression that most, regardless of education, modernity or conservatism, don't buy into the official 911 conspirarcy theory.  Anyway, thanx for the information.


..TM7

TM7, Actually, I have found what upsets most tribal Muslims about America is that they view us as a shameless  culture, who's economic and military strength is being used to corrupt the faithful around the world. While we consider it a mark of honor that we are willing to fight and die for the rights of the people, they see those rights being excercised in shameless immoral ways: pornography, adultery, divorce, abortion, homosexuality. To be clear, all of those things are as prevalent in their cultures as it is in ours, but it is very embarassing. We have no shame, to their way of thinking, and we would remove the bounds of honor from their cultures as well. What we see as the promotion of liberty, they see as undermining the fiber of community, family, tribe which they use Islam to strengthen. This I get from talking to the average working class Abdul, not the radical wild-eyed insurgent. They don't want their sons on the pipe, or their daughters on the pole ... me either, frankly.

They also hate Israel, but do you know that the term Philistine (Palestinian) in Arabic is often rephrased Philis-teez in jokes? It means nickel-butt, as in they're worthless. So while they use Palestine as a rallying cry, the Palestinian people are the butt of the jokes told in the Middle East. Do you know what Kurd means in Arabic? Roll the R and it means Monkey ... again, used alot in jokes. The kurds are another hot potato people to the west, but mocked by the other tribes. Wahabi Arabs in Saudi refer to African-American converts to Islam as zenouj, which in Arabic means the same thing as a common derogatory term used for Blacks, even by themselves. Unabashedly racist, or perhaps better said: tribal supremacists.

Muslims also think all Christians are part of a world-wide doctrinally unified movement, sharing common values and goals, with an agenda to take over the world. Which is funny isn't it? How many churches split over the weekend do you suppose, over nothing more significant than the color of the carpet? And they think we've got it wired tight. What are we saying about them? Dont get me wrong: I'll pick my side over their's any day, but I've been around enough to know the way things are.
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