Author Topic: Twins (Read 1558 times)

Cannoneer · « **on:** November 07, 2009, 09:06:56 AM »

Do these two photos of two different bronze cannons (one British, the other Spanish) resting on the sea bed seem strangely familiar?

Archeological find No.1

Archeological find No.2

No.1

No.2

Changed dirrerent to different; operating under the assumption that many of you may have had difficulty pronouncing dirrerent properly.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 07, 2009, 10:24:28 AM »

Boy you caught an interesting situation.... so the French and the British used the same cannon founders. it's amazing how even the surroundings

are the same!

I would say that the Victory writeup was lacking without a photo and they stole it from the first...... poor journalism.......... bad form!

RocklockI · « **Reply #2 on:** November 07, 2009, 01:16:19 PM »

Busted ! that is poor form $:-\$

KABAR2 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 07, 2009, 02:26:51 PM »

Did you notice they cropped out the fish on the Victory photo? Must not have had their written consent to be published..........

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 07, 2009, 03:06:30 PM »

I feel stupid asking, but exactly what coat of arms is that on the cannon? I checked Spanish, French, British, doesn't seem to be those. I see the three trefoils in upper right of shield.. I dont' have any books with me and the web is letting me down. Whatzit please?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 07, 2009, 04:37:19 PM »

I have been looking for it too.... I think it has it's roots in France not Spain.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 07, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »

British newspaper Guardian article that is the source of the second link I posted.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/feb/01/hms-victory-wreck

This is from the the article that claims the photo is of a Spanish cannon from a Spanish ship wreck.

"The cannon is 2 meters long, weighs 645 kilograms and was cast on June 18, 1777 in Seville, Spain, according to an inscription on the piece."

"Leonel Delgado Ceballos said that the cannon comes from a ship that was part of the Real Armada fleet of King Carlos III as confirmed by a crown engraved on the surface of the cannon with a capital R encircled with a C and the number "three" in Roman numerals."

This is the caption attached to the photo shown in the Gaurdian article.

"A photo of a bronze cannon bearing the royal crest of King George I at the shipwreck site of HMS Victory in the English Channel. Photograph: AP"

Neither of these descriptions seem to fit the cannon in the photos.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 07, 2009, 10:44:51 PM »

You know the more I look at this the more I think the photo does not belong to either story,

when ever a cannon is that is found and photographed underwater it has concretions built up on it and after 200 plus

years of being in the sea if it did not have that build up the crest and moldings would have been worn away by the sea action!

I am now thinking this is a staged photo! maybe even a museum exhibit, where they have a fish tank set up to look like the sea

bottom with some shipwreck items including the cannon in it to give people the flavor of diving on a wreck.

the local marine museum as part of it's big tank has a section of a sunken ship which you can see from the inside,

so you can see all the fish swimming in and out of it, museums are getting creative with their displays and I think that photo

is part of a display that is now a stock photo and was taken by a news org. to enhance a story.

cannonmn · « **Reply #8 on:** November 08, 2009, 12:30:57 AM »

It seems heraldry is something I'll never understand completely. I guess there are a number of different coats of arms which could be proper for a given monarch. Here's one for KGi which does have the three trefoiils in upper right, but then the rest is different from that cannon. One or more of the cannons at Watervliet should answer the question, since they have a date plus a KGi COA as I recall. Can't find them just now, maybe later.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2485/3742487780_785a5dbd67.jpg?v=0

RocklockI · « **Reply #9 on:** November 08, 2009, 02:16:25 AM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on November 07, 2009, 10:44:51 PM

You know the more I look at this the more I think the photo does not belong to either story,

when ever a cannon is that is found and photographed underwater it has concretions built up on it and after 200 plus

years of being in the sea if it did not have that build up the crest and moldings would have been worn away by the sea action!

I am now thinking this is a staged photo! maybe even a museum exhibit, where they have a fish tank set up to look like the sea

bottom with some shipwreck items including the cannon in it to give people the flavor of diving on a wreck.

the local marine museum as part of it's big tank has a section of a sunken ship which you can see from the inside,

so you can see all the fish swimming in and out of it, museums are getting creative with their displays and I think that photo

Thats a good catch KABAR2 , it does look kinda ..fishy.. If it is in a tank somewhere theres no way they'd put a bronze cannon in it as copper kills fish . I dont think iron would do them any good either .

Are those chiclids in the one picure ? That can tell you alot , this is supposed to be at the bottom of the deep Atlantic ? ? ?

is part of a display that is now a stock photo and was taken by a news org. to enhance a story.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 08, 2009, 02:45:21 AM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 08, 2009, 02:16:25 AM

Quote from: KABAR2 on November 07, 2009, 10:44:51 PM
You know the more I look at this the more I think the photo does not belong to either story,

when ever a cannon is that is found and photographed underwater it has concretions built up on it and after 200 plus

years of being in the sea if it did not have that build up the crest and moldings would have been worn away by the sea action!

I am now thinking this is a staged photo! maybe even a museum exhibit, where they have a fish tank set up to look like the sea

bottom with some shipwreck items including the cannon in it to give people the flavor of diving on a wreck.

the local marine museum as part of it's big tank has a section of a sunken ship which you can see from the inside,

so you can see all the fish swimming in and out of it, museums are getting creative with their displays and I think that photo

is part of a display that is now a stock photo and was taken by a news org. to enhance a story.
Quote from: RocklockI on November 08, 2009, 02:16:25 AM
Thats a good catch KABAR2 , it does look kinda ..fishy.. If it is in a tank somewhere theres no way they'd put a bronze cannon in it as copper kills fish . I dont think iron would do them any good either .

Are those chiclids in the one picure ? That can tell you alot , this is supposed to be at the bottom of the deep Atlantic ? ? ?

I went and separated your quote from the middle of mine, as far as the copper killing the fish with a good filtration system that should not

be a problem besides the copper is not dissolving fast enough to change the salt water's ph. hopefully they clear coated the cannon before

adding it to the environment to protect it from further attack.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2009, 02:49:11 AM »

Cannonmn,

I believe the coat of arms you have there is George the third, I am thinking that this is still a French coat of arms,

the style does not seem right for English, it would be nice if we could determine what the other symbols are in the different

fields, the one half almost looks like a sunburst I looked for the coat of arms for Louie XIV the sun king but could not find anything

like this.

RocklockI · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2009, 03:22:42 AM »

Sorry ,and thanks .

Thats a good catch KABAR2 , it does look kinda ..fishy.. If it is in a tank somewhere theres no way they'd put a bronze cannon in it as copper kills fish . I dont think iron would do them any good either .

Are those chiclids in the one picure ? That can tell you alot , this is supposed to be at the bottom of the deep Atlantic ? ? ?

Gary

eta trying to make sence

cannonmn · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2009, 03:43:39 PM »

The arms cast in relief on the cannon in the original post are those Geo. I. A nearly identical set of arms appears on a 13-inch bronze mortar cast by Schalch at Woolwich in 1726. The photo of these arms appears in Blackmore, H.L., THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON, V. 1, Ordnance, HMSO, London, 1976, plate 65. The caption describes the arms as those of George I.

BTW, the book this is in is one of the very best cannon books I have, heavily illustrated, drawings, good very close up photos, etc. If I didn't have this book I'd happily pay $200. for it. I haven't checked whether it is available reasonably or not, but a lot of them were printed. 425 pages, oversize, most of the pages contain illustrations of some sort.

GGaskill · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2009, 03:55:14 PM »

THE ARMOURIES OF THE TOWER OF LONDON at amazon.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2009, 08:51:08 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on November 08, 2009, 12:30:57 AM

It seems heraldry is something I'll never understand completely.

You're doing better than I am, because I don't understand it at all. Its a pity that Richard "the Sage of Heraldic Sciences" is still on a sabbatical. One thing I learned (I think) is that those three symbols are really fleur-de-lis which are for some reason considered distinct from trefoils. Kabar is right, the three fleur-de-lis (lillies) are symbols representing France, but some British monarchs also used them in their heraldry because they claimed to be the rightful rulers of France, and I've also seen them on Spanish coats of arms for some reason that I'm not really sure of.
If you are correct (and I sure can't prove you wrong) about that being a George I crest on the gun; then wouldn't it still be a mystery as to how that cannon would be connected to either of the shipwrecks mentioned?

cannonmn · « **Reply #16 on:** November 09, 2009, 01:20:09 AM »

Boom, you of all people ought to have one of the Tower of London books on your shelf, I'd start looking for one for sale in the US-it will probably cost a lot to ship that one Kabar found from UK, the book is quite heavy.

Anyway, the cannon pictured I'm pretty sure is one found on the wreck of the VICTORY, since as we know now it is definitely British and of the KG I era. Association of it with any other wreck or situation is simply an error by careless or uninformed media employees. Since it took everyone on this board a few days to decipher that COA, the average junior reporter at the Mungsville, GA TIMES who has an hour before his deadline, has no chance.

RocklockI · « **Reply #17 on:** November 09, 2009, 01:39:17 AM »

There are French Lillys on a very nice gun from the Vasa several rows up and down the barrel .

I think everyone in Europe used them at one time or another .

Gary

How deep was the Victory found ? That darn fish looks like a chiclid and the sand looks like Beliezian brown sand . It looks shallow and fake . Wouldnt deep ocean fish dart off at the bright light of a close up for the camera .

Im sure it's legit , but it dosnt really click for me .

cannonmn · « **Reply #18 on:** November 09, 2009, 03:49:25 AM »

Quote

Wouldnt deep ocean fish dart off at the bright light of a close up for the camera .

Fish don't have reactions that quick. The camera's work is all done in a few thousandths of a second if flash is used, and a really quick, nervous fish might be able to react to a flash in 500/1000 sec. No cigar. But then the only fish that like cigars are smoked salmon, right?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 09, 2009, 04:08:46 AM »

Cannonmn,

Why isn't there any concretion on the cannon? And after 200 years + in the ocean why hasn't the action of the

ocean currents and sand destroyed the crest? It is too crisp. I still think it is staged.

cannonmn · « **Reply #20 on:** November 09, 2009, 04:39:32 AM »

Quote

Why isn't there any concretion on the cannon? And after 200 years + in the ocean why hasn't the action of the ocean currents and sand destroyed the crest? It is too crisp. I still think it is staged.

Good questions but out of my area. BOB SMITH, calling Bob Smith, someone flash the Bob Smith signal on the side of the tall building

RocklockI · « **Reply #21 on:** November 09, 2009, 04:45:26 AM »

Smoking salmon yes , Smoked salmon have smoked their last .

Maybe we could shine a light onto the clouds ...a bat winged cannon .

Cannoneer · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2009, 06:51:36 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on November 09, 2009, 01:20:09 AM

Boom, you of all people ought to have one of the Tower of London books on your shelf, I'd start looking for one for sale in the US-it will probably cost a lot to ship that one Kabar found from UK, the book is quite heavy.

Anyway, the cannon pictured I'm pretty sure is one found on the wreck of the VICTORY, since as we know now it is definitely British and of the KG I era. Association of it with any other wreck or situation is simply an error by careless or uninformed media employees. Since it took everyone on this board a few days to decipher that COA, the average junior reporter at the Mungsville, GA TIMES who has an hour before his deadline, has no chance.

I believe you (shhh, I'm trying to entice Richard into coming out of his burrow a little earlier than he planned); the "Guardian" still has its "sterling" reputation intact, even with the nekkid tatas that are probably displayed on page 5, or whatever page it is that those randy Brits like to display them on.

dan610324 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 09, 2009, 08:31:38 AM »

Im almost 100% sure that this photo comes from an museum exhibition tank
the cannon could be in a freshwater tank as a part of the preservation of the barrel
anyone knowing if its a salt or fresh water fish in the picture ??
everything looks wrong for me in that picture
the barrel is too clean
how often do you find a coin treasure directly beside the cannon ?? of course its possible , but _ _ _ _
the water is too clean
if you look at the shadow from the fish you can see that the light comes from above and not from where the camera is positioned

RocklockI · « **Reply #24 on:** November 09, 2009, 10:20:41 AM »

I noticed that shadow too . I thought it was a chiclid which is a brackish water fish . Tropical too .

It just doesnt look quite right .

dan610324 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 09, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »

can they survive in pure fresh water ??

useing fresh water to soak the salt out that have been accumulated by the cannon from the seawater is one part of the preservation process

so this can be a way to show a recently found cannon in a museum before the preservation is finished
or just a way to show people how it can look out at the bottom of the ocean

I guess that it aint many of this kind of war ships that have sunk in fresh water

and just a very few in brackish water

RocklockI · « **Reply #26 on:** November 09, 2009, 05:38:50 PM »

I cannt 'say ' it 'is' a chiclid but it doesnt look deep sea to me , ask me how I know ? ..... no good reason !

I couldnt for the life of me understand why any restoration effort would OR could include fish ? I know fresh water is used ,but they wouldnt comprimise their effort to suit fish of any stripe , to temps , cleanliness , requirments .

Like Cannonmn said the flash could or would take care of the fish looking like deer in the headlights .

but wouldnt there have had to be lights around for the divers to see ,to set up and shoot the shot ?

well at any rate ,we are having our sport with this one .

gary

btw I think chiclids can be kept in fresh water , but deep atlantic abiss ? , well I dont think so .

but like i said they may ,or may not be chicletts

.......but they do look tropical to me .

Cannoneer · « **Reply #27 on:** November 12, 2009, 09:13:00 AM »

High quality photos of two bronze guns recovered from the HMS Victory (a 42-pdr and 12-pdr). Click on photo of "Cannon."
You'll also be able to glean some interesting info, if you skulk around the rest of this site. You might even see the photo with the Atlantic fishies in it.

Victory's Guns

RocklockI · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2009, 09:57:53 AM »

good enough for me .

dan610324 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 12, 2009, 01:31:53 PM »

wow