Bullet flight path for 30-06 model 111

[Georgen71]

I have a friend with a 1 year old blued model 111 that came with iron sights and synthetic stock. We applied a medium height Dednutz 1 piece mount and a 3-9x40 Leopold scope. Everything fits well and is comfortable for my friend. He has a very tight group at 100 yds and often times the gun puts the bullet through the same hole only making it slightly wider. Our question is about the bullet flight path being 4" low at 25 feet. He shot at a deer and was 4" low so he put his group on paper at the same distance and was 4" low again. The scope mount is only about 1.5" higher than the bore so that is what is confusing to us. We know the bullet path is in a arc, but it is only starting 1.5" lower than the crosshairs, not 4" lower. He is planning on sighting in his rifle at 50 yds for his future shots. Let us know what your thoughts are on this. Thanks. George Nickerson, Klawock Alaska.

[diggler1833]

Has he shot the rifle at 100yds since finding out that it is hitting 4" low at 25? 

[Georgen71]

Yeah he shot it and it is still at zero at 100yds. Strange, has us a little stumped. Pointing out any contributing factors would help us out. Thanks for the reply. Geo.

[BBF]

What you are writing appears impossible to me regardless of rifle type and cartridge

[Georgen71]

Exactly, that's why we are stumped. Thanks for reading. If someone else was posting this and I read it I would not know what to think. His stock is synthetic with a very hollow butt. The factory recoil pad is a hollow piece of rubber. He just replaced it with a Limb-saver which is a little more solid. Will see if that changes the barrel rise any when he shoots. I seen on a shooting program where they were showing how to adjust the rise on a shotgun by adjusting and shimming the butt-plate. Not sure what else to look at. We also realize this was an iron sight rifle so the stock is such that it aligns the eyesight with the iron sights. The medium height dednutz mount aligns his eyesight with his scope though so that is not a factor. Any ideas on what else to check or anything we might have overlooked?

[BBF]

About the only thing I can think of is to shoot at targets at 50 and 75 yards as well. Somewhere along the way the bullet needs to pass the line of sight.

I presume action and scope are tight. Is the rifle held differently between shots at 25 yards and 100.
I have seen guys press down on the scope with one hand while shooting from the bench.        B A D !!

[84Jim]

George,

If it's still zeroed at 100 yds., the only thing I can think of is parrallax.  Most hunting scopes without a parrallax adjustment are set for 100 yds.  If your buddies eye position is not perfectly centered with the cross hairs at other ranges, it will throw the point of impact off.  For a properly mounted scope that allows a comfortable and natural head position the effects are usually pretty minor.  To be 4" low at 25 yds., he would have to be really off center or stretching.  Just my .02.

Jim

[BBF]

After reading Jim48's post I tend to agree that it must be a scope or a holding the rifle problem. The other thing is: Does your friend change the magnification power from 25 to 100 yards? I have had a Simons that had ungodly run out or whatever you call it when changing the magnification.

Lastly, how about changing the scope, anybody you know got a fixed power scope just to try out.

[Georgen71]

I guess it could be a parallax problem, it doesn't have an adjustable objective. I think we are going to shoot at 25 yard intervals to check the bullet drop and see if we can determine where the line of sight and bullet path cross like was suggested too. I think even the same shots at low power magnification and then again at high power zoom to see if either affects it, he pretty much keeps it at 6 power. I will let you guys know what we find out. Probably shoot this weekend. Trying to sort this out, my friend is taking a few weeks off and going to slay some deer, I guess as long as they are not 25 feet away though. Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it. Geo

[jmayton]

I would think it would be parallax.  I hunt hogs with my 16" AR15 topped with a Millett DMS 1-4x.  Zeroed at 100yds.  I shot at a hog's neck at about  25yds and the shot was about 3-3.5" low and completely missed the hog.  I recently removed my scope and shot with iron sights (also zeroed at 100) for 3-gun and it was only shooting 1.5 - 2" low at the close ranges which is exactly where it should.  The only thing I can think of is parallax that would simply move the point of aim from the point of impact at close range.  Most scopes without parallax adjustment are set to 100-150yds.

BTW, you should find that the bullet crosses line of sight at 100yds if that's where it's zeroed.  From muzzle to 100 it's just climbing.  If you were zeroed at 200, you'd see it rise above and then fall back.

[BBF]

Standard cartridges( 308, 30006 etc) cross the line of sight(scope 1.5" above muzzle) at approx 25 yard on the way over the LOS and should impact the  "Eye of the Bull"   at around 100 yards.

[jmayton]

I'll defer to BBF on this, though mine's never never shot high from muzzle to 100yds with a 100yd zero.  Typically my 30-06 is 1.5" low at 25, then 3/4" low at 50, then zero at 100.  It'll hit a bit high at 130 then start to fall.

[diggler1833]

Also, if you haven't yet...(might have missed it in one of the posts) try swapping the scope to another that you know works on one of your other rifles.

Did he change the magnification setting from shooting 100, then 25yds?

[Georgen71]

I have a scope with an adjustable objective that we may put on his gun and try the same shots and see if that eliminate the parallax trouble we may be having, or at least confirm that is what the issue is.

[jmayton]

I ran the numbers for my prefered 30-06 load through the ballistic calculator at Handloads.com and found that with a 100yd zero, the bullet should impact decreasingly low all the way to 100.  If zeroed further, then it will fly above line of sight and the drop back at the zeroed range. 

I still think it's parallax and the magnification change might have something to do with it.  I had a cheap scope that would change it's zero with magnification change, but I wouldn't expect a Leupold to do that. . . my Nikon doesn't.

[Harry Snippe]

Most of my hunting is in the thick eastern bush , with shots under the 100 yds with 75-80 usually being the Norm. How ever once in awhile you always get the longer shot , so rifles are set more to the 200 yd.
So the bullet path is a bit high over the 100 yds line and again drops for the 200 yd line . But so far never lost a animal that was moving due to lack of hold over .( I had a few deer flush from their bed a few yards in front of me , and after the heart attack - had no time to shoot!!)
Then the only deer standing still in the open at a swamp , went down @ a measured  220 yards with one shot.
The savage hunter is designed for scope use . I have a weaver set up on mine with a 3x9 Bushnell scope . and this seems to work perfect right out of the box .Once set for 200 yards , everything inbetween- be it minute of wolf, deer, moose, or bear, should be dead , "If" I do my part .

Just my .02 cents  

[Ron T.]

I generally "zero" my big game rifles at 25 yards and this normally gives me a "point-blank-range" of 240 to 300 yards, depending on caliber, velocity and bullet weight.  This is usually sufficient range & accuracy for most hunting situations.  If one prefers less of a bullet rise and drop, then one should understand that they will have a shorter maximum point-blank-range.

Standard "point-blank-range" is that distance during which the bullet's path does NOT rise more than 3 inches above or fall more than 3 inches below the shooter's line-of-sight.

According to my Sierra Ballistic Program, a .30/06 Springfield cartridge using a standard Winchester factory load featuring a 180 grain Silver Tip bullet at 2700 fps yields the following results:
25 yards = ± "0" inches
50    "    = + 1.19  "
75    "    = + 2.05  "
100  "    = + 2.57  "
125  "    = + 2.75  "
150  "    = + 2.53  "
175  "    = + 1.94  "
200  "    = + 0.93  "
225  "    =  - 0.51  "
250  "    =  - 2.39  "
275  "    =  - 4.75  "
300  "    =  - 7.61  "

I note that Georgen71 is from Klawock, Alaska.  Therefore, that is the reason I used the factory-loaded Winchester 180 grain Silver-Tip bullet which is a good, deep-penetrating bullet due to it's construction... and therefore suitable for larger, heavier and dangerous game like the game generally found in Alaska.

Personally, if I had to use the .30/06 cartridge rather than my .338 Win. Mag or .375 H&H Mag., I would use 180 grain Federal "High-Energy" cartridge which is ballistically similar to the .300 H&H Magnum round that use to be considered "adequate" for the "big bears" prior to the advent (in 1958) of the .338 Winchester Magnum cartridge and that group of heavier-duty cartridges.

If you "zero" your friend's .30/06 the same as the above chart, your results should be very close to the same as the chart results depending on temperature and barrel length.

I recommend this sight-in range simply because it gives you the great advantage of NOT having to "hold-over" or "hold-under" the desired point-of-impact all the way out to 275 yards.  Obviously, this round's velocity and bullet weight makes it a 275 yard rifle with a perfect "hold".  And one could easily "hold over" the 7½ inches at 300 yards if the exact range is known.

I hope this helps you.......      


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.