Author Topic: Office Shootings (Read 2973 times)

XD9 · « **on:** November 09, 2009, 10:34:39 AM »

With the recent happenings in the news, I've thought a lot more about security in the work place. Not that I haven't considered it before, but these kinds of events tend to bring it to the forefront in your mind. Where I work, handguns and knives are not allowed. I keep one in my truck but that doesn't do much good if someone comes down the hall spraying. I've been pondering, what would I do if I'm sitting at my desk and I hear someone come in the door shouting and firing? I'm a little ways down the hall so I would have a "little" time to react to the screams of my co-workers closer to the front. How would you react? Would you stay in your office? Would you go to the hall? What would your plan be? What "weapons" would be at your disposal? I keep spiked brass knuckles in my briefcase but how do you get close enough to a gunmen for that?

Just wanted to see what kind of discussion this would lead to. I'm sure I'm not the only one working in a "no guns" office, thinking these types of things. To make things worse, my building is the only off-campus building in our hospital complex that does not stay locked down with key card only access. Further, security for the hospital is based on the main campus. While they do keep someone in a vehicle making rounds to all off-campus buildings 24/7, there is still a response time that is insufficient for my needs.

Thoughts?

williamlayton · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2009, 11:32:15 AM »

Thay can't do that--it is against the law---what you need to do under those circumstances is call the police.
Blessings

jlwilliams · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »

You can get a small lockable case that's designed for a handgun. Put that inside your briefcase,leave the briefcase unlocked. It's slower to get at than a concealed holster, but you have something. If it's inside your case it's not really noticable to some one who glances over while you happen to be getting some work out of your case. You are really unlikely to be caught carrying that way. I used to put one in my lunchbox, no one ever noticed or asked. I got mine from a local gun shop for about $30 IIRC. The other option being a very small gun in a pocket holster or 'thunderwear' type inside the pants rig. That's more likely to fall out in the bathroom, costing you your job. The box in the briefcase also allows for a full sized gun you could really use.

BTW, if your company won't allow a knife,the knucks are likely a dismissable offense too. Most anti weapon policies are vague enough to allow them to can you for something like that. If you want to keep an impact weapon in your briefcase make it a hammer, or substitute a screwdriver for a knife. Tools like that work, and you can get away with it because "...I was fixing ....and I just stuck it in my briefcase last night...forgot it was there" A screwdriver isn't a weapon, untill it is.

My opinion is that it's better to discreatly violate the company poilcy than to be completely at the mercy of a sometimes merciless world.

DDZ · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2009, 12:03:02 PM »

My employer doesn't allow firearms even on their property. So that means not even one in your vehicle. If caught with a firearm it means termination. I often wondered if someone did get caught with a firearm, if they could fight it and win. I don't know how these companies get away with barring a constitutional right. It seams that there are many big companies that don't allow firearms on their property. Many companies now do in-depth back round checks on employees before they are hired. So why not let them carry? At least let them have a firearm in their car.

mechanic · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2009, 12:09:43 PM »

Quote from: DDZ on November 09, 2009, 12:03:02 PM

My employer doesn't allow firearms even on their property. So that means not even one in your vehicle. If caught with a firearm it means termination. I often wondered if someone did get caught with a firearm, if they could fight it and win. I don't know how these companies get away with barring a constitutional right. It seams that there are many big companies that don't allow firearms on their property. Many companies now do in-depth back round checks on employees before they are hired. So why not let them carry? At least let them have a firearm in their car.

Unfortunately, the employer would be liable for anything you or someone else might do with a weapon. Employers are so afraid of liablility issues right now, that they won't allow much of anything. They certainly have the right to not allow weapons on their property..the constitution is designed to protect us from government only. The government is "supposed" to be curtailed by it. An employer however, has a legal right to require many things the state cannot. Some of these have been tested over the years, and the laws modified to restrict employers to some extent...for example they may not legally discriminate because of age...but no one has "tested" the firearm restrictions yet, and given the current state of our society, its unlikely it would succeed.

spruce · « **Reply #5 on:** November 09, 2009, 12:36:45 PM »

How about pepper spray in your desk drawer or briefcase?

Can you decorate your office? If so maybe you're a baseball fan - make up a small display with baseball and BAT, maybe a team picture. All innocently displayed on a small shelf.

A lot of things can be used as improvised weapons. Trick is to find something that fits in with you and your office and won't raise suspicions of co-workers or boss.

GH1 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2009, 04:53:07 AM »

How about an ankle holster? Or if you don't want to jeapordize your job than a fire extinguisher makes a fine close range weapon that no one would question. It's a tough call. I guess it comes down to how much you're willing to try to get away with.
GH1

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:06:45 AM »

If i could not find a job that allows me to carry then i would look for all escape routes . Look for hiding places etc , they must have hard cover etc.
An office free standing coat rack might be a weapon . Some book ends , a credit card will slice nicely , The CIA letter opener comes to mind - its a plastic resin reenforced type letter opener that would weigh little and fit in a brief case, sock etc . A lock on your door woud be a nice touch . People who attack like this often shoot and move on or stay in one place and shoot all they see . Point is try not to be seen . Call police is a great idea as it will limit his time unmolested at the very least.

rockbilly · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 07:20:47 AM »

In most states the brass knucks would get you a harder sentence than a firearm. I have seen them sold at gun shows as paper weights, but in Texas they are still looked upon as a weapon and if concealed could lead to bad stuff.

This may be the place where a can of hornet and wasp spray would help..........

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 08:18:55 AM »

Got the ansewer - bullet proof vest !

S & W 642 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:23:43 AM »

XD-9 i just carry anytime. The baseball bat sounds good. You need to talk to the hospital about this policy for off campus buildings.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:28:32 AM »

How many shootings do ya'll have in the emg room ? around here it happens more than you might think . I took self defense classes with Emg. room doctors who were taking the class for just that reason .

XD9 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2009, 10:21:07 AM »

I haven't personally heard about many shootings in the Emergency Room but we did have a man come in and shoot his wife in the elevator a couple of years ago.

I have checked with the hospitals Director of Security about off-campus weapons policies. They sent someone out to do a threat assessment on our building. The Director agrees with me that this building needs to be locked down like all the others but they won't lock it tight because the Procurement department is in my building and they have vendors come in all the time. Not a very good reason to me but that's what I'm being told.

williamlayton · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2009, 07:42:17 PM »

If you do carry a weapon in your car onto company parking---for God's sake don't announce it.
I have had one in my company car for years---only I knew it was there. I was not there when it went in for repairs.
Keep it quiet.
I never had my car searched by anyone.
Discreation is the better part of valor.
I never carried one into the workplace.
I have carried a shotgun to work but that was OK.
Blessings

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:53:05 AM »

XD9: I would worry less about being fired than being dead. It doesn't help your widow or fatherless children to have to sit through a eulogy just because of a company policy.

I would much rather prefer to worry about having to look for another job if I ever had to defend myself in a work/office shooting situation than to find out I'm worrying about my widow.

William Layton laid it out the best way I can think of. Keep one where only you know it is and do not ever announce it. jmtcw.

XD9 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2009, 04:41:36 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on November 11, 2009, 01:53:05 AM

XD9: I would worry less about being fired than being dead. It doesn't help your widow or fatherless children to have to sit through a eulogy just because of a company policy.

That's how I feel as well. NO ONE at work knows I keep one in my truck or knows that I have brass knuckles in my briefcase. I've thought about wearing an ankle rig because I'm never in areas with metal detectors. However, I would hate to lose my job if I ever went into one of these areas and was terminated for wearing one...not for defending myself.

I may start concealing one in my briefcase...it would be easy to do. I would never be dumb enough to tell anyone about it though. The fact that I carry is my business, no one elses.

Swampman · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2009, 11:43:44 AM »

In FL they can't search your car if you have a permit.

jlwilliams · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2009, 04:43:52 PM »

Quote from: XD9 on November 11, 2009, 04:41:36 AM

Quote from: Mikey on November 11, 2009, 01:53:05 AM
XD9: I would worry less about being fired than being dead. It doesn't help your widow or fatherless children to have to sit through a eulogy just because of a company policy.

That's how I feel as well. NO ONE at work knows I keep one in my truck or knows that I have brass knuckles in my briefcase. I've thought about wearing an ankle rig because I'm never in areas with metal detectors. However, I would hate to lose my job if I ever went into one of these areas and was terminated for wearing one...not for defending myself.

I may start concealing one in my briefcase...it would be easy to do. I would never be dumb enough to tell anyone about it though. The fact that I carry is my business, no one elses.

There you go. The breifcase is your private property. Your boss isn't going in there for no reason. The ankle holster is certainly a quicker draw, but it's way more likely to be seen and get you fired, and a gun in the case is better than no gun. Look into the little locked cases I mentioned in my first post. I know I see them at gun shops. You may find one at Bass Pro or Dicks, I don't know. Any small case would keep unwanted eyes from identifying it. Maybe a camera case or a PDA case would work just as well for you.

XD9 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2009, 04:04:49 AM »

Quote from: jlwilliams on November 11, 2009, 04:43:52 PM

Any small case would keep unwanted eyes from identifying it. Maybe a camera case or a PDA case would work just as well for you.

I have a small zippered camera case that would work perfectly for this. No one would ever see it in my briefcase and, as stated above, if I ever had to use it, the last thing I'd be worried about is losing my job.

Of course, if anything ever happened like that in my building, I'd probably have a lawsuit if I wanted one since I've talked to the head of security on two occasions about making the building safer and nothing has been done. Not that I would press it, just mentioning it.

mechanic · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2009, 01:51:12 PM »

Don't know what type of weapon you want to hide, but I have a 22 derringer that fits tidily in a cell phone holster. Yep', I know it's not a man stopper, but it beats nothing. I drive into a lot of different businesses on a daily basis, and getting nabbed with a gun would be a no no. I can also drop this in my pocket an no one knows. If I have to use it, I would just have to try and get close enough to leave powder burns for it to have much effect.

Squib · « **Reply #20 on:** November 21, 2009, 10:10:57 PM »

you all know about punch daggers right?, a small spike/shanke made of semi-sharp, hardened metal that is short and thin, very hard for someone to disarm you once you're using it, and it's not likely to be caught in a pat-down if it's thin as it should be. some people use something similiar made of quality wood or more likely polymer but with the tip blunt enough to just amplify the striking force of blows without piercing (you can still mess up an organ like the throat/brain/kidneys and how hard is it to use a TINY pocket knife as a push dagger, it's legal anywhere (if someone knows you have it they'll likely push you to give it up or not bring it back but 1 3/4 inches blades are okay in even federal buildings, that's law!

a tiny little knife that 's not much better than a letter opener is still able to stab into someone, and I'm betting a nut-job shooter probably isn't wearing ear plugs so after a few shots, sneak up and neck him (or use your fist, unless a man is old or has muscular dystrophy, what's stopping his fist from connecting with semi-lethal force upon someone's head while totally unaware)

think about it, if someone "blind-sided" you full-force, would you be able to fight back, what if that was done with about 1 1/2 inches of blade sticking out of the fist upon the back of your head or neck. I'm not aware of anyone I've ever met being able to take a hit like that, maybe someone mystical like elmer keith or beowulf, but not some reject with a deathwish

LunaticFringeInc · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2009, 04:25:08 AM »

Spruce stole my thunder on this one. Thats guarenteed to fly under the radar about as well as the fire extinguisher (there should be one of these in every room anyways making it handy). If you work at a desk...consider a letter opener thats a little more sturdier than those cheapies the office usually supplies.

Dont dismiss that heavy duty cast aluminum three holer punch setting on the desk or counter either...earlier in my military career I clocked a thief in my shop in the head with one, he hit the ground like a sack of potatos about 2 seconds later! I beat out the agrevated assualt with intent to maim charge at a court marshal, but it did later cost me a stripe, and half a months pay x 2 in the end at NJP. I was still the shop supervisor though and we never had a problem with thievery in the shop or the barraks while I was stationed there or follow on commands as my reputation always seemed to proceeded me.

Have you ever noticed how these sort of shootings dont happen at the police station or the gun store? I suspect thats cuase they are all packing, can all shoot back and actually shoot what thery are aiming at!

jeep08ham · « **Reply #22 on:** November 23, 2009, 05:38:17 PM »

My suggestion would be to keep a heavy bookend, preferably metal. It can be thrown and carry some weight. Think of what you have every day in the office that can be a weapon. One item that is overlooked is the common stapler. Swing it open and you have lots of leverage. Hope you never have this situation happen for you.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #23 on:** December 03, 2009, 04:35:09 AM »

All of this discussion of alternative weapons just brings to mind the old axiom, "the only defense against a gun is a gun".

45-70.gov · « **Reply #24 on:** December 03, 2009, 04:50:26 AM »

Quote from: Swampman on November 11, 2009, 11:43:44 AM

In FL they can't search your car if you have a permit.

without a permit they can't search you car either

i wouldn't work there
i was once told not to carry in my company truck
so it was turned in..
.along with copies of CCW .. FFL.. letter of thanks for teaching firearms saftey from the city
explained that they sent me into dangerous neighbor hoods to work
and were responsable for my safety
next day they said my guns were not a problem to pick up the truck

if i were to work there i would get a lawer to right a letter putting them on notice

that they left me vulnerable and responsable for mine and all others security
and get other employees to do the same

i heard similar letters were sent to block buster vidio over their no CCW policy for customers

bilmac · « **Reply #25 on:** December 03, 2009, 05:38:57 AM »

With 24 hour a day news, workplace shootings are probably greatly overplayed, and on our minds more than they need to be. Remember too that the media has an agenda to get our guns away from us, so they play this stuff up. What is the greater risk, being killed by a mass murder, or getting fired from a job in hard times.

That said, I am a great believer in being prepared. My vote would be for an innocent baseball bat behind your office door. Unlike a blade, it will put someone down instantly every time if used with vigor. Strike from hiding and from behind if possible. There is a place where the neck and shoulder meet that when struck hard will paralyze the recieviee instantly. Any cop can show you where it is and how to deliver the blow, but then they are cops and trained not to injure anyone permanently. A dead man is not as likely to sue your socks off.

troglodyte · « **Reply #26 on:** December 08, 2009, 03:58:12 PM »

Fire extinguisher.

5-10# Something big enough to hurt but in a managable size.

The spray is ammonia based and will do several things. 1) put up a "smoke screen". 2) shut down the eyes and respiratory system of the gunman, and 3) can be used to bust the skull of the gunman as he chokes on the spray...oh and 4) put out fires.

While some may think you are a little strange, nobody will question a personal fire extinguisher tucked under your desk.

They have a decent range (20ft+ for fires, more for SD) to maintain separation and a discharge time of 10-15 sec. giving you several bursts. A 5# has an actual wt. of ~9 lbs. and a 10# weighs ~18 lbs.

With a little thought you can come up with a lot of ways to use one "tactically". I've recently started thinking of easy ways to rig one as a "booby-trap". Haven't thought it through yet but it is rattling around in that skull of mine.

Not a good as a gun maybe but certainly better than a sharp stick.

Squib · « **Reply #27 on:** December 08, 2009, 07:22:06 PM »

we forgot willpower and fitness.... if you are healthy then go to the gym. if you can get into some judo/aikido/grappling classes, even better.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #28 on:** December 09, 2009, 02:47:00 AM »

since having a gun is a no no . and anything that won't return fire at someone shooting at you out of contact range is useless . put a steel plate or other bullet stopping material in brief case and block the shot !
Short of having a gun you are pretty much screwed when taking fire from a mad man .

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #29 on:** December 09, 2009, 05:25:57 AM »

Get yourself a zip up bible cover, fashion a foam insert to fit inside the cover. Make a cutout of your carry weapon in the foam, plenty of room for extra mag, Surefire light, etc. Not advocating desecrating a Bible here but adding a book cover with a clasp sort of thing inside the case would allow a cursory glance inside, and still cover the weapon.

If you are a known church goer, a mention of couples classes after work or something ocassionally, would complete the cover up.