Author Topic: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal  (Read 1071 times)

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Offline ms

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Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« on: November 10, 2009, 07:02:38 AM »

Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal




Nov. 10 (Bloomberg) -- Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, drawing on his experience of military failure in Afghanistan in the 1980s, said the U.S. can’t win the conflict there and should begin pulling out its soldiers.

Afghanistan, where U.S. and NATO forces are battling a Taliban-led insurgency, is too fragmented between clans to be controlled militarily, Gorbachev, 78, said in an interview today in Berlin. While he said President Barack Obama would be unlikely to take his advice, Gorbachev said he saw no chance of success even with more U.S. troops.

“I believe that there is no prospect of a military solution,” Gorbachev said in Russian through a translator. “What we need is the reconciliation of Afghan society -- and they should be preparing the ground for withdrawal rather than additional troops.”

Gorbachev, who became general secretary of the ruling Communist Party in 1985, at age 54, initiated a restructuring program known as perestroika that eventually led to the break-up of the Soviet Union in 1991. He spoke a day after he joined Chancellor Angela Merkel and current world leaders in the German capital to mark the fall of the Berlin Wall 20 years ago.

As Soviet leader, Gorbachev pursued a policy of detente with the U.S. while overseeing the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan in 1989 after grappling with an unsuccessful decade- long presence in the country.

Disputed Election

Obama is considering a military request to send as many as 40,000 more U.S. soldiers to Afghanistan, on top of the 68,000 due to be stationed there by the end of the year. Other North Atlantic Treaty Organization forces, comprising personnel from 42 countries, number about 36,000.

The U.S. troop review has been complicated by increased Taliban attacks and by a disputed victory for the incumbent, Hamid Karzai, in this year’s presidential election.

Speaking in Berlin yesterday, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton demanded that Karzai step up efforts to tackle corruption. Karzai was re-appointed president by Afghanistan’s electoral commissioners Nov. 2 following former Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah’s decision to pull out of a runoff election.

In response to an Oct. 28 attack on United Nations staff by Taliban militants that killed five of the agency’s workers in a Kabul guesthouse, the UN last week announced it would move about 600 of its international staff members and remove some from the country.

Brezhnev’s Gamble

Soviet Premier Leonid Brezhnev sent tanks into Afghanistan to support a Marxist regime in 1979, betting superior firepower from the ground and air would keep the country within Moscow’s fold. Soviet aims were thwarted by an Islamist mujahedeen movement supported by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the U.S.

While there was support in the Moscow establishment, Gorbachev as the general secretary of the Communist Party concluded that Soviet objectives couldn’t be achieved.

“We thought that that would lead nowhere,” Gorbachev said. “So we started to disengage our troops from any kind of hostilities in Afghanistan.”

The pullout began in 1988 and ended in February of 1989, nine months before the Berlin Wall fell.

The Taliban, an outcrop of the mujahedeen that dominated Afghanistan in the 1990s, took control of most of the country in 1996. The U.S.-led invasion five years later, following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was meant to displace the Taliban, accused of harboring the terrorist group al-Qaeda.

American ‘Perestroika’

Gorbachev said that relations between Russia and the U.S. are improving as America undergoes its own perestroika, or rebuilding, which he said had begun with the election of Obama as president last year.

“America should implement perestroika in the context of American society,” Gorbachev said. “I believe that people of America, most of them who voted in these elections -- and most of them voted for Obama -- did vote for change.”

Asked whether Obama could trust Russia’s current leadership, President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, the former Soviet leader said it would have to be a process. He cited his first meeting with former President Ronald Reagan in Geneva in 1985; after the two leaders met one-on-one, they shared their thoughts on each other with their delegations.

“He’s a real dinosaur, a man from the past,” Gorbachev remembered saying. “Do you think that Reagan had a better view of me? He said: ‘Gorbachev is a die-hard Bolshevik.’ So that was the beginning

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 08:09:15 AM »
i listened to that interview and he knows what awaits us there. obama painted his a%% into a corner and now can not get out.

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 08:32:29 AM »
Quote
obama painted his a%% into a corner and now can not get out.

There is a very good chance that you are right.  He may have painted the US into a total no-win situation.  The US has been involved in Afghanistan for eight years.  The civilian neo-con artists in the pentagon and the white house refused to put enough boots on the ground to get the job done.  They turned Afghanistan into a NATO parade ground war.  It is probably too late to commit more troops to Afghanistan because the Taliban and al Queda have thoroughly infiltrated the Afghan government.   There is a very good chance that we will lose this one along with the so called "war on terror."   

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 08:47:27 AM »
And this is advice is comming from a guy who was beaten by the taliban.
They fought hard to get rid of Communism.
We are throwing off the enslavement of the Fundamentalists, communists and allowing them to be free.
We need to finally do what is needed to show that we are resolved to win the war on Terror.
I can see why the Liberals do not want to fight them, the terrorists want us to live their way and so do the liberals.
The difference between them is the Fundamentalist muslums want to convert you or kill you, the liberals want to outlaw everything that they do not agree with, with out knowing the repercussions or how it has a global effect in our economy.

Offline Questor

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2009, 08:59:48 AM »
People in leadership positions are always getting advice like that, and it's best to ignore it. Gorby's experience was 30 years ago, and things have changed. (In the interest of making a snide remark about Obama, notice that I said "leadership position" instead of "leader".)
Safety first

Offline Swampman

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2009, 09:16:51 AM »
Afghanistan is what brought down the iron curtain.  If we keep pi$$ing away money 90 miles an hour in a war that we can't win the Statue of Liberty will have made in China stamped on it pretty soon.

My son is over there.  Let's bring them home and try to save America if possible.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2009, 09:26:33 AM »
I didn't realize the old rascal was still alive but I figure the advice he gave is good. We have no business with troops anywhere over there. If we have a military objective to achieve that is realistically achieveable it should be done from the air not on the ground.


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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2009, 09:38:22 AM »
Can anyone name an invader that won there ? The Russians lost , the British lost and others from acient times .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline gypsyman

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2009, 09:44:54 AM »
We could win there if we throw a couple nukes in there. But, that'll never happen, so probably best to get the troops out of there. gypsyman
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 09:48:52 AM »
nukeum ! ;D
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 10:21:03 AM »
Quote
I can see why the Liberals do not want to fight them, the terrorists want us to live their way and so do the liberals.


What happened to that brave Texas steer named Wya Bush?  Bush wussied out on Afghanistan and bought into a plan by his Saudi bud, King Abdullah, to negotiate with the Taliban.  A request for more troops from the Afghan CG sat on Bush's desk without action for the last eight months he was in office.  Yep, blame it all on the "liberals."

Offline Swampman

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 10:25:55 AM »
We were winning when the President left office.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline ms

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 10:29:20 AM »
We were winning when the President left office.
No we weren't stop with the bs.

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 10:39:30 AM »
while i am certainly no commie lover, i admit i admire gorbachev for having the courage to help set into motion the events that brought down the wall. he was a courageous man very lucky that the old military types did not line him up against the wall and shoot him.

Just think of the effort the russians made to win and compare it to ours now and what we will do at best. they had 150,000 troops or better and conducted an all out no mercy campain of total war. something we will never do. they thought there might be a few Mujahadeen hiding in a villiage they wiped it out down to the last chicken and dog. leveled it killed everyone and shot anyone who did not like it. they never broke their will nor did they win.

we will put in roads and water wells and they ones that drive up to get water to drink in the day will come back that nite to kill us. kinda like in Nam. we have not learned that we are there for only one reason...kill our enemy not convert them to christianity (which will never happen) or give them the gift of democracy (they do not want it).

we will be better served in our mission if we get out and only go in when we have many targets to kill. if the missles or planes can not do it send in the special ops with the 82nd. kill all we can then load up and leave. keep doing that until its over. (meaning when all that want to kill us are dead or quit)


i know it might sound stupid but staying is only going to load up alot of c130 with bodies of our soldiers. i got 1 grandson there now (marine) and his brother goes when he gets out of ranger training. if he makes it and if he does not hes going anyway.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2009, 10:45:51 AM »
We were winning when the President left office.
No we weren't stop with the bs.

Of course we were.  Do you watch Fox News or CNN?
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2009, 12:09:56 PM »
I didn't realize the old rascal was still alive but I figure the advice he gave is good. We have no business with troops anywhere over there. If we have a military objective to achieve that is realistically achieveable it should be done from the air not on the ground.
Bill,
We had troops in Germany and Japan for years after WWII in order to ensure the Peace and that rogue factions did not rear back up and take over.
With the fundimentalists we need to stay there till the current free government can take care of them selves.
I would also like to see us Pull indusrty out of China and move it to Afganistan or Iraq.  people with jobs are usually happier and do not buy into the extreme silly hate speach.
And taking advice from Gorby on how to win is like the world champions (pick a sport) taking advice on how to win from the team that was in second to last place.

Offline jimster

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2009, 01:39:47 PM »
I have not read where anyone at any time has ever won anything in Afghanistan.  I would suppose if you killed every living thing including the birds and bugs, you could say you won the land, and take it and keep it and say it ours.  Nobody is willing to that or even anything close to that.  2 more years it will be close to as long as it took Russia to figure out there is nothing to win, and they got their butts kicked all the way out as well.  They fought with less rules than we have too.  Really...what are we trying to do there?  Give them what we have?  Our government is at least as corrupt as what they have.
Iraq will fall when we leave as well, it's been falling all along, soon as we stop paying the Iraqi's to shoot in a certain direction, it's done. 
We should come home and surround our borders, clean out the illegals here, and let the world know if there are any terrorist acts on our nation or people we turn the sand to glass and kill all the bugs, and then really do it....and then ask if anyone else wants some more.  You can do that in the air with no boots on the ground.  No rebuilding anything...take anything worth anything after the air clears and call it spoils of war.  I'm personally sick and tired of American solders dying for nothing but politics and trying to convince people we are "giving them a new government"...it's all hog wash.  You go to war to win, total devistation and take what you want after, or you stay home, it's that simple.  War is war.  People haven't learned a thing over time, they still dither dather around using politics and using war as an economic stimlulas for the few in power.  The 60's liberal attitude infested not only our society, but our military to the point where we are too weak to even have WHO we want as a solder. 

Who are WE to go into a foreign country and tell them anything at all?  We have no business telling anyone how to live or what to do. You want to go chase a bad guy around like Bin Laden...hire some mercs from there and just find him, or blow the whole place up and tell the neighbors to put weld helmets on and don't look that way. The American people don't have the stomach to win a war.  The way to have handled 9/11 was not to spend a decade in the middle east. 

Jim

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2009, 01:45:41 PM »
jimster for president..i like your line of thinking.....

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2009, 06:13:03 PM »
I don't happen to agree. We accomplished out stated objectives in Afganistan initially and should have gotten the hell out then not stayed around. If they came back and set up more camps then and ONLY THEN should we have returned and that return should have been mostly air power.

You will NEVER EVER win their hearts or minds or will you change the way they do things. We have no legitimate role in setting up governments in foreign countries. If we feel we must attack and destroy some objective there fine do it and be gone. Let them pick up the pieces as they see fit and fund their own recovery. Explain to them the error of their ways and tell them that if they do the same again then we will again do to them what we did last time. Then get the hell out.

I didn't realize the old rascal was still alive but I figure the advice he gave is good. We have no business with troops anywhere over there. If we have a military objective to achieve that is realistically achieveable it should be done from the air not on the ground.
Bill,
We had troops in Germany and Japan for years after WWII in order to ensure the Peace and that rogue factions did not rear back up and take over.
With the fundimentalists we need to stay there till the current free government can take care of them selves.
I would also like to see us Pull indusrty out of China and move it to Afganistan or Iraq.  people with jobs are usually happier and do not buy into the extreme silly hate speach.
And taking advice from Gorby on how to win is like the world champions (pick a sport) taking advice on how to win from the team that was in second to last place.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 01:43:35 AM »
Why in the hell would anyone take advise from gorbachev? He was a loser! You take advise from winners.
                                      Beerbelly

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2009, 01:50:59 AM »
He is still alive and in Mother Russia that alone is winning !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline anweis

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 02:02:21 AM »
If we have a military objective to achieve that is realistically achieveable it should be done from the air not on the ground.

...and limited presence by special operations troops. We want Osama and his boys to stay put, that's all.  If the Aghans want a stable, peaceful, and democratic country, they should build it themselves, and pay for it themselves.
Those people are 1,200 years behind times. We can't bring them to our day, no matter how much candy we spread.

Old Rabbi was walking down the street. He had paper bags that he kept shaking in each of his hands. People asked him: "Rabbi, what do you have in those bags and why are you shaking them?" "I have several angry mice in each bag. I keep shaking the bags to disorganize the mice. If i stop shaking the bags, they'll get organized, chew through the bag, and bite my hands".


Offline anweis

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2009, 02:08:08 AM »
Why in the hell would anyone take advise from gorbachev? He was a loser! You take advise from winners.
                                      Beerbelly

He was not a loser. He was the gratest achiever of his time. He took the angry bear out of the cave and made him dance and smile. He was wise enough to make decissions that benefitted half of the people on the planet. Had he done wrong, there could have been many bloody wars, including between USA and the Soviets. He avoided a bloody and dangerous fall of the Soviet regime, and he put Russia on track to becoming a great country.

Offline anweis

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 02:10:29 AM »
I didn't realize the old rascal was still alive but I figure the advice he gave is good. We have no business with troops anywhere over there. If we have a military objective to achieve that is realistically achieveable it should be done from the air not on the ground.
Bill,
We had troops in Germany and Japan for years after WWII in order to ensure the Peace and that rogue factions did not rear back up and take over.
With the fundimentalists we need to stay there till the current free government can take care of them selves.
I would also like to see us Pull indusrty out of China and move it to Afganistan or Iraq.  people with jobs are usually happier and do not buy into the extreme silly hate speach.
And taking advice from Gorby on how to win is like the world champions (pick a sport) taking advice on how to win from the team that was in second to last place.
Yes, there but are two differences here: The Afghans don't want us there, and we don't have the money to pay for 50 years of troop presence and rebuilding.
Besides, Germany/Japan and Afghanistan are VERY different. For starters, the Japanese and the Germans work.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2009, 02:13:44 AM »
In both of those cases a treaty of surrender was signed , both countried had sued for peace . In case no one had noticed they don't want peace , have not asked for it .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline skifastchad

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 03:00:29 AM »
Can anyone name an invader that won there ? The Russians lost , the British lost and others from acient times .

Alexander and the Greeks.   And ironically, the descendants of the Indo-Greek people who were later forced to submit to Islam became some of the most devout followers.  They are the ones who started the resistance against Russia.


Offline ms

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 03:06:38 AM »
Thanks tm7 .  ;)

Offline jimster

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 06:52:25 AM »
Swampie....wasn't it Bush jr. that cooked the intell along with Cheney, Rummie, Powell, and  Joint Chiefs and STARTED A TWO FRONT WAR ON SO-CALLED TERROR WHEN THEY NEW THE ECONOMY BUBBLE WAS ABOUT TO SPATTER ALL OVER...? 

A lot more people involved than that....I remember Clintons, both of them telling us we had to do something fast...Hillary herself was giving speeches saying we were taking way too long to go to Iraq...the United Nations stirred the pot for years...not to mentions all the Democrats saying...YA...let's GO! 
Itell?  Let's see...that was coming from all over the world...long before Bush, including the United Nations.
Clinton stood right there on National TV and told us why he was bombing the heck out of them. Maybe you MISSED this little show of "we gotta get the WMD's" coming from the Dems way back then. ?

I do understand why you picked Bush out of the large crowd...you don't like him.  I don't like any of them, going back long before Bush.  Including the UN...who probably did more over the years to stir the pot than any of them.  All I'm saying is I disagreed with ALL of them over the years...Bush & company are but a small part of it all. Dems are just as much a part of it as anyone else....even more so...they actually started it from their congressional seats...and years later tried to hide it and hope nobody remembered. 

The whole kitten kabodal was in it, not just Bush.  It did not start with him. It won't end with him either. As you can plainly see.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 07:12:38 AM »
Alexander was stoped there . History shows it has never been conqured only occupied for a short while.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline BBF

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Re: Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 07:56:34 AM »

Quote
..... He avoided a bloody and dangerous fall of the Soviet regime, and he put Russia on track to becoming a great country.

The Communists are running that country again without calling themselves Communists and a ex KGB officer is calling the shots. Those that oppose him disappear, not much different now then in the former Soviet Union. They are re-arming and are not your friend.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.