Author Topic: Should we get out of Afghanistan?  (Read 1258 times)

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Offline Questor

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Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« on: November 11, 2009, 04:21:32 AM »
I think we still need spies and people working with the locals through out the  country to gather information on Al Quaeda so that those targets can be identified. I think the troops should be sent home, and the sooner the better.

Perhaps I'd think differently if there were a clear goal of some kind.
Safety first

Offline anweis

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2009, 06:34:52 AM »
I also think that we need to keep spies and special troops, perhaps also increase Predator drone activity, etc, but we should withdraw troops, not add. We are not wanted there, that is not a nation (it's a multitude of tribes), the country is corrupt beyound belief, they have millions of boys younger than 18 who have no schools or jobs or farmland or water, they are 1000 years behind time, and we have no clear objective. Further, we are borrowing money to fight that war, and everyone is laughing at our impotence. We are loosing lives, time, money, international prestige, credibility, and the war. We have no willingness to pay for a 50 year long engagement and construction of a new society. The objective that got us there was to deny safe haven for terrorists so that they could not attack us. We achieved that. We can continue doing that with less than 10,000 troups.

It would be much more productive if we disturbed the money flow that finances Al Queda and the taliban. With the corruption there, 2/3 of the money that we spend there ends up in Taliban and terrorist pockets.


What that country needs is contraceptives and schools, not more troups.  

Afghanistan's 'Disposable Sons'
NATO is helpless against the country's youth bulge.
By GUNNAR HEINSOHN
To understand why the U.S. and NATO—after eight years of hard fighting—face mounting
losses in Afghanistan, we must look beyond the battlefield.
Afghanistan has been at war or civil war since 1979. With a tiny population of 15 million, it
fought a bloody struggle against the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Treaty allies, which had a
combined population of 450 million. While the Russians lost some 15,000 men, Afghanistan
suffered more than a million dead. In the years that followed, Afghanistan was never at peace
as new combatants, foreign and domestic, battled for control of the country. And yet as the U.S.
and other NATO countries approach their ninth year of war in this forbidding land, Afghanistan
today has many more men of military age than it did in 1978.
How can a politically divided population of today 33 million provide enough fighters to resist the
NATO countries, which have a combined population of nearly one billion? How can the Afghans
challenge such military behemoths? Or, to put it differently, why do Russia and NATO win easily
against mini-powers such as Georgia or Serbia, but find it hard to defeat mini-powers such as
Chechnya or Afghanistan? What do the Afghans have that both the other mini-powers and the
big powers are lacking? The answer is in the dynamics of a rapidly growing population.
Decade after decade, the women of Afghanistan have been averaging three to four sons each.
This means even if an Afghan family loses two or more boys on the battlefield—"disposable
sons"—it still has one or two male offsprings at home to carry the family into the next
generation. Russian soldiers in 1979, however, were likely to be only sons. Statistically, that is
also true for American soldiers in 2009, and is true as well for the soldiers of Serbia and Georgia
that have quickly shrinking and ageing populations.
If an only son falls in battle, a family is demographically crippled, or left with no future at all.
Each death brings unbearable pain, and calls for withdrawal from the war. Afghanistan, in other
words, can take heavy losses in combat and continue to grow. If demographics are destiny,
then Afghanistan is destined to prevail.
Today, every 1,000 Afghan men aged 40 to 44 will be succeeded by more than 4,000 boys
aged 0 to 4. In the U.S., there are only 980 boys per 1,000 men. In the U.K. the ratio is 670 per
1,000 and in Germany, which is committing demographic suicide, the ratio is 470 boys to 1,000
men.
In 1979, the Russian army faced 2.5 million Afghan males at the traditional fighting ages of 15 to
29. Some 1.7 million of those Afghan males were second, third or fourth sons. They were surely
loved by their parents but the family's property was inherited only by the oldest son. Younger
sons had to struggle hard to find their places in society and—with decent jobs hard to find—
could be easily recruited by militant groups. In 1979, 3.5 million Afghan boys still younger than
15 when the Soviet Union attacked were getting ready for just such a fight.
This endless supply of angry, ambitious young Afghan men never appeared on Russian radar.
Yet it eventually forced them to give up the war and go home. Afghanistan was down to 13
million inhabitants.
In 2009, the situation is even more volatile. Today there are 4.2 million Afghan males aged 15 to
29 out of a total population of 33 million. Two and half million may conclude that violence offers
their only chance for a successful future. Are these men on the radar screen of the 65.000
soldiers of NATO and the International Security Assistance Force? Is NATO/ISAF aware that
6.7 million Afghan boys under 15 are getting ready for battle? In Afghanistan, 45% of all males
are younger than 15 versus 21% in the U.S., 18% in the U.K. and 14% in Germany.
Nearly half a million reach military age every year. Close to 300,000 of them may be tempted by
Taliban tales of victory or heroic death. When it comes to high-tech weapons, ISAF has the
advantage. But when it comes to "disposable sons"—the ultimate weapon of war—the ratio
between Afghanistan and NATO/ISAF is four million to zero in favor of Afghanistan.
By working hard to arm and train Afghan police officers and soldiers, ISAF demonstrates that it
is not ignorant of its demographic odds. Thus, the Western nations try to turn the international
war, for which they do not have enough manpower, back into a civil war in which it will fall on
the Afghans themselves to consume recent and coming youth bulges. The West does not count
on the bloodshed ending soon. Yet, they hope to get their own men out of harms way as well as
out of the danger to be accused of crimes of war or crimes against humanity. M
Mr. Heinsohn heads the Raphael Lemkin Institute at the University of Bremen, Europe's first
institute devoted to comparative genocide research.


Offline Dee

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2009, 06:57:45 AM »
I think we still need spies and people working with the locals through out the  country to gather information on Al Quaeda so that those targets can be identified. I think the troops should be sent home, and the sooner the better.

Perhaps I'd think differently if there were a clear goal of some kind.

PLUS ONE HERE QUESTOR! OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BETRAYED OUR MILITARY, AND HAS NO INTENTION OF LETTING THEM WIN, BUT INSTEAD IS LETTING THEM DIE, AND CONTINUALLY LOOSE GROUND. IT WAS OVER, BEFORE IT STARTED. KOREA, AND VIETNAM HAS TAUGHT US NOTING ABOUT OUR GOVERNMENT.
AM I SHOUTING? YES! I BELIEVE I AM. ;)
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Offline BBF

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2009, 08:01:03 AM »

I don't think the nwo/Banksters/m.i.c. are going to like a retro-grade movement too much.


.....TM7

I guess they haven't squeezed Obamas gonads as yet.
What is the point of Life if you can't have fun.

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 08:09:27 AM »
We should get out of Afganistan.
1) after we have defeated all our and a Free Afganistan government's enemys
2) we should leave two days after the Afgans can protect themselves.
This silly PC moron of a President needs to look at the political wavering that lost Viet Nam and learn from his other Democrat President's mistakes rather than making them again.
Would leaving a Radical Muslium force in the feild be High Crimes if they were ale to strike at us again?

Offline Questor

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 08:55:20 AM »
Isn't that the same as saying "never leave Afghanistan"?

Seriously. It's like expecting Somalia to have a conventional government. They'll never do it.
Safety first

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 08:57:11 AM »
yes , pull out and drop a few big ones as we get clear .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 09:08:42 AM »
Isn't that the same as saying "never leave Afghanistan"?

Seriously. It's like expecting Somalia to have a conventional government. They'll never do it.

No we just need to show we are serious about winning.
If we leave like the Soviets did in the early 90's we may have similar or worse problems in 10 -30 years.
Much like we had in Iraq (not trying to change the subject) when we did not remove Sadam we needed to go back and remove him 10 years later for trying to produce WMD's.  The result in ending his torture, rape and murder rooms and giving the people of the country freedom to chart their own desteny. 
If we show that we have the resolve to win and not bow to Left wing anti war, or worse the Muslium apploigists / sympathizers that want us to loose and do not understand there is no way to negotiate with them.
Their demands are - Convert or die.
how do you give in to that?  Scrap the constititution?  Become a theocracy under Sharia?

Offline Questor

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2009, 09:19:16 AM »
Show who that we're serious? Has an actual enemy been identified there?
Safety first

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 09:23:34 AM »
Lets clean house in the states first then work out from here .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dee

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 10:21:59 AM »
SHOOTALL, there is a great idea. Everyone wants to go and straighten out a country that really has done nothing to us aka Iraq. What we NEED TO DO, is straighten out our own government. It is as corrupt as Iraq or Afganistans government in many ways.
No we don't have death squads openly YET!
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 10:26:47 AM »
Deport Pelosi, Reed, and any Kennedy that Cancer, Lead, or Bark has not already taken.

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 10:35:50 AM »
 ive gotta aggree ..truth is we just not able to fix the earth inhabitants..
 lets get out ..get back to our god.. then the federal gov t should be involving itself in a common defence
 against muzlims or any other aggressor,, for each of the 50 states....this assuming the 50 th state
 wants to be under our umbrella..im not sure they do..ive only known a few from however you spell the 50th.. but some of them didn t act to excited about being a state.. if im wrong ,,you folks from there please excuse me.. ive only known a few from the island state....slim

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2009, 10:50:02 AM »
Get all our troops out, and all the Coalition troops as well.  From Afghanistan and Iraq.  That way no one important gets hurt when the nukes drop on Iran, and the fall out drops on Afghanistan.
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2009, 10:53:48 AM »
A plan !
 lets get out of everwhere , let the rest of the world fend for themselves . If they want help let them pay us for it . Trade food for oil .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline skarke

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2009, 11:01:58 AM »
Ahh, what a fine place to test the latest versions of the MOAB, or maybe clear the inventory of a few million pounds of ordinance that has been gathering dust since WW II.

Seriously though, only through what will likely be decades of resolve, these regimes will begin to fall, IF WE STAY THE COURSE!!!!!  If we don't, just plan on seeing our grandkids blown apart in the grocery store.  Just ask any Israeli.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it on to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States when men were free.  Ronaldus Maximus

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2009, 11:26:13 AM »
If we pull out I think Israel will not wait much longer to protect itself.  Hence the Nukes I was talking about
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline Rex in OTZ

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 12:10:28 PM »
Getting out, if we do the extremnist Islamic zellots will keep teaching ther own brand of hate to a whole new crop of youngin's, they have sworn a holy war on all western countries this war has no boundries and has no time limit, the few zellots can and do infect the main stream Muslims, so if they do mount up to 17% of the total muslim population thats still allot considering ther's around 1.25 Billion of them at last count, pretty scarey stuff, they arnt going away and would love to kill a large bunch of us in the process,
problem is they are every where intermixed with non-extermeist muslims, some these bad people come from every continent, Ive seen the video's of palistinian elementry school girls shouting and crying as they recite Jehadist Poetry, they indoctrinate ther childern, dehumanizeing all who arnt of there creed, some parallels to some of history's recent past, anti-semetic retoric (1930's facisim) is redailly apperent.

Offline Questor

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2009, 01:11:35 PM »
Did he turn down all the options because no matter which one he picks, he's going to be judged unfavorably?
Safety first

Offline jimster

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 01:31:23 PM »
Well Questor, you might be right about that, if that is the case, he is certainly not capable of leading anything or anybody, a true leader makes his calls regarless of popularity.  Course eveyone knew he was no real leader or had any experience in anything except collecting people's money. 

The man has no sand, and if you have no sand, you can't take a stand. 

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2009, 01:41:09 PM »
i want to ammend my answer.
After reading that the moron Commander in Cheif has rejected all four plans from the generals.
We either need to have a clear cut plan to win, nad make desicive moves to win or we need to leave and wait till the evil anti Americans
like Osama can come in use $ to buy loyalty and use it to satage another attack against us.  this time maybe more deadly than Step 11th.
ANd then hope we have a commander in Cheif that will act and not wag his finger in the camera and say we are going to bring you to justice (Clinton) lob a couple cruise missles and allow them time to make plans for larger attacks.
These desicions by Poll are silly and only put our troops in harms way.  And if they are just there for political fodder then they should leave.
So far this dolt has done everything to loose the war, kill the economy, Saddle the next 6 generations with massive debt, and make you a servent of the State rather than the other way around.
The only good side to the moron we have in office is it is not the bigger moron who is VP.

Offline jimster

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2009, 02:42:51 PM »
So far this dolt has done everything to loose the war, kill the economy, Saddle the next 6 generations with massive debt, and make you a servent of the State rather than the other way around.

That sums it up pretty well. 

Offline torpedoman

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2009, 02:48:52 PM »
get the boys home do satilite survelience of the countryside there and everytime you see a camp dispatch a cruise missle with a note to tell them it is a no no.
the nation that forgets it defenders will itself be forgotten

Offline Oldshooter

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2009, 03:25:42 PM »
The government of this country, and I mean every bit of it, past and present has SO lost credibility that i am surprised that anyone even joins the military. Troops died in N Korea and they quit/negotiated peace. Troops died in Vietnam and they gave up! US Troops have died all over this world  for politicians and they let em down every time! I told my youngest son, who is 22 now to go to college and to hell with the military cause they will send you to die and then decide it was all a mistake and a bad idea.  Better to die on the beaches here when they come than to go off for some political BS and get sold out so some political hack can make a point or garner a few votes.

Hell yea! Pull out and get em home, it dont matter that thousands have given their lives and limbs  for NOTHING, Save the ones that we can, to hell with it!  The people of this country dont deserve my childrens blood, or sacrifice. They'll vote for a free ride or hand out and then say that the ones that survive the blood bath cant be trusted, and should be watched.
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Offline Odin

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2009, 04:13:13 PM »
I think BO said that he is not interested in victory; so, what the heck is he interested in?  Hey BO what is YOUR end game?  For years the left was asking the same thing of W. We the people don’t know and sadly the troops and the commanders in the field sure don’t know.  And I’ll bet the political lap dogs in the Pentagon don’t know. As the old saying goes: poop or get of the pot.   After all, you are the commander in chief, or IS you?
History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2009, 12:07:49 AM »
  If we go to war we should go to win..and use every necessary device or plan to protect our troops and win the conflict. If we are not willing to do that we have no business trying.
  The effort in Afghanistan was doomed the day this SOS was elected. He has no desire to win or even give freedom a chance anywhere in the Muslim sphere of influence.. no sense kidding around.. you KNOW why!

   That being said, Has anyone beside me noticed the administration program now?
  A) Suddenly the Afghan  leadership, who the alphabet media has been giving credit, is corrupt to the point where it cannot be salvaged.
  B) Afghan elections were previously quite fair, but now are completely corrupt and illegal.
  C) The Afghan ambassador appointed by the Obamanation suddenly decides the extra troops are not needed.
        ( I suppose his military acumen is superior to Gen McChrystal)
 D) Suddenly, the prez is demanding a survey of every province in Afghanistan.

         OBVIOUS CONCLUSIONS (mine): He's demonizing the the only leaders who have a chance at turning things around.
         His pick as ambassador is preparing the ground to abandon the country
         He never had any intentions on installing freedom in Afghanistan.
         He condemns the Afghan leadership, guess he figures the Taliban is better.
         Has not even considered a surge in troops, but is looking for an out and appointed an ambassador who would help him.

  PREDICTION (mine):
   The majority of the provinces will be found to be irretrievable.
   As usual, and with the aforementioned excuses..this radical left administration will CUT & RUN...  
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2009, 12:49:47 AM »
When at war, the Generals need to be allowed run the war! Starting with Korea, when Mc Arther was taken from command for not being allowed to win the war is when all this crap started. Hell give me complete command of the US forces and I bet I could win the war on terror. Of course there would be about one billion less muslims on the planet. I don't think I would lose one minute of sleep over it either, I think I'd sleep better in fact.
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2009, 01:34:00 AM »
If we surrender there and if we get out that is what we will be doing! They will trumpet their victory over us and embolden all Moslems every where. Then with in two years they will bring their war here. If we run now , we will pay dearly for it in the not distant future.
  As for the Israelis knocking out Iran's nuckes, I don't think they can. They have built these plants deep under ground. I don't think we think we can knock them out with what we have today. As there is a rush on right now to build a better deep penetrating bomb.
  No one is going to stop Iran from getting the bomb! What happens after they have it is very, very scarey.
   How ever I think Obama is going to get out. He dose not want to fight his brother Muslim’s.
                                  Beerbelly

Offline anweis

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2009, 01:42:52 AM »
yes , pull out and drop a few big ones as we get clear .

more of them, but smaller?

Offline Dee

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Re: Should we get out of Afghanistan?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2009, 02:00:50 AM »
About 1300 years ago the Roman Empire set about straightening out the "known world" and conquering it, and occupying it, and "trying to change it" into Rome, or at least a reasonable facsimile. Result? They spread themselves TOO THIN, and their wealth caused a moral decay similar to OURS! Sex, drugs, sports, sexual PERVERSION, and A VERY HEALTHY DOSE OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS.
What they found in the end, was that everyone in the world did not want, to be a Roman, they had spread themselves so thin, that they could no longer protect THEMSELVES, and their government was strune with INTERNAL CORRUPTION, AND DECADENCE, to the point that it was irrecoverable.
Forget history, and you are condemned to repeat it.

Some say it was Solomon that said it, but it is doubtful that he did, but we know that God inspired whomever said it, and it is the truth.

Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verse 9, The THING THAT HATH BEEN, it IS THAT WHICH SHALL BE; and THAT WHICH IS DONE is THAT WHICH SHALL BE DONE: AND THERE IS NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN.

And our government for a long time: Romans Chapter 1 verse 22. PROFESSING THEMSELVES TO BE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLS, Verse 23. AND CHANGED THE GLORY OF THE UNCORRUPTIBLE GOD INTO AN "IMAGE MADE LIKE TO CORRUPTIBLE MAN" and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

And that gentlemen, in case you missed my point is my point. We need now to save our young men and women, by getting out, and getting out now. Our government has become so corrupt, they will not allow our brave soldiers to fight to win, and if they win, they could be prosectued. Like it or not, it is the truth.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett