Author Topic: Is this an Armstrong cannon? (Read 2472 times)

Cannoneer · « **on:** November 13, 2009, 10:27:18 AM »

Years ago, I saved these two photos, and caption from a website; there are also scale model bone carvings which duplicate this cannon's (and the carriage's) details exactly, that are up for sale/auction on different sites on the web, and these models are identified as Armstrong guns.
Does anyone here know if this cannon is really an Armstrong rifled breech loader, and could this elaborate carriage actually be the original carriage of this gun?

Larchmont, NY Yacht Club
This beautiful old cannon is fired twice daily. It was reconfigured to fire 12 gauge blanks. The barrel is 44 inches long.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2009, 11:40:50 AM »

The crying shame is that is a Navy landing gun on a civilian carriage.....

I am looking for a reference now.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:09:31 PM »

Allen,
The people that write these item descriptions up for some of these antique stores are incredibly creative.
I think that this item is still for sale, so I'm not going to post the link, or name the store.

"Presented is a exquisitely crafted hand tooled replica of a Civil War Armstrong breech loading siege cannon as used during the Civil War. This object reminds one of work crafted by Prisoners of War while incarcerated by the British in Dartmoor Prison 1775-1825. We believe the cannon is a contemporary recreation done in this style and is handcrafted out of stockyard bone using the same techniques as 200 years ago. The model's carriage is built from fine quality rosewood with various bone bolts and towing rings."

Max Caliber · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:35:35 PM »

BoomJ, That's a U.S. Navy 3-inch Breech Loading Howitzer made at the Washington Navy Yard. They were produced around the 1870s. They were mounted on a Naval landing field carriage. I have some pictures of one here somewhere that I will try to post tomorrow.

Max

KABAR2 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:40:57 PM »

"Presented is a exquisitely crafted hand tooled replica of a Civil War Armstrong breech loading siege cannon as used during the Civil War."

Yeah and up until they said that I bet none of us knew that Armstrong cannon were used in the civil war!

"This object reminds one of work crafted by Prisoners of War while incarcerated by the British in Dartmoor Prison 1775-1825"

Yeah throw a historical fact in there to muddle things....

We believe the cannon is a contemporary recreation done in this style and is handcrafted out of stockyard bone using the same techniques as 200 years ago. The model's carriage is built from fine quality rosewood with various bone bolts and towing rings."

I think they know exactly where in China they imported them from and who actually made them, this is a crock of ..........

Like I said and MAX confirms it's a U.S. piece and had nothing to do with Armstrong.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:51:42 PM »

Thanks, Max and Allen! It didn't make any sense to me that this gun was an Armstrong; I was always under the impression that other than field guns, Armstrong's cannons were moving in the direction of big, bigger, and even bigger.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2009, 01:56:44 PM »

Allen,
I'm not going to name it, but this is the same store that Cannonmn had a recent post on. Some of their item descriptions are downright hilarious.

Double D · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:08:42 PM »

Quote from: KABAR2 on November 13, 2009, 01:40:57 PM

"Presented is a exquisitely crafted hand tooled replica of a Civil War Armstrong breech loading siege cannon as used during the Civil War."

Yeah and up until they said that I bet none of us knew that Armstrong cannon were used in the civil war!

night be some elses Civil war...somebody else did have a civil war didn't they?

KABAR2 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 13, 2009, 02:19:05 PM »

Boom J,

I know of the outfit where they are listed, they get cannon some made in the past 50 years - some almost fantasy and call it a HMS Victory cannon.......

have never been impressed by this site.

And DD yes other people have had Civil Wars too....... but the impression is they speak of ours..... you don't have many during that time in history and ours

has been romanticized so much....... you don't hear of the Spanish Civil War being still romanticized or any of the others......

carronader · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2009, 12:29:22 AM »

Did those strange ,mixed race savages , based South of Hadrian's wall not have a few skirmishes, in between attempts to subjugate their sophisticated Northern neighbours ? I think they termed that a Civil War. Damned impertinent if you ask me..............how dare they confuse the issue.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2009, 12:36:16 AM »

Quote from: carronader on November 14, 2009, 12:29:22 AM

Did those strange ,mixed race savages , based South of Hadrian's wall not have a few skirmishes, in between attempts to subjugate their sophisticated Northern neighbours ? I think they termed that a Civil War. Damned impertinent if you ask me..............how dare they confuse the issue.

I think that one is a little early for breech loading cannon........ gee no one has mentioned the English Civil War......

Have you ever noticed that in most "Civil Wars" the "Civil" part is the first thing to go?

Max Caliber · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2009, 02:40:23 AM »

Boom J, This howitzer was known as the Navy Model of 350 Pounds. It was apparently very popular and successful. With all the bronze hardware and ammo boxes, it is one beautiful breech loader. It is on it's field carriage and, as I recall, the wheels are around 36 inches tall.

KABAR2 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2009, 02:54:45 AM »

MC thanks for adding the photo's the Artilleryman had a write up on the restoration of some of these

back in the 70's I am trying to find my issue I think there were a couple of nice line drawings of the gun in there.

Question is that painted lite grey and it is washed out by the flash? Or did they paint it white?

Allen <><

Cannoneer · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2009, 09:29:56 AM »

Thanks, Max; your usual good information, and fine photos. I agree with you, it is a beautiful gun.

Carronader; I think the person from the store that concocted that story about the "Civil War Armstrong breech loading siege cannon" probably is referring to the English Civil War, but as KABAR2 has already mentioned, there's a difficulty with the historical time-line here: The English Civil War ended in 1651, and William George Armstrong wasn't born until 1810.

Max Caliber · « **Reply #14 on:** November 14, 2009, 10:47:27 AM »

KABAR2, I took the pictures with a film camera with a flash in bad light, but as I remember the carriage color was a very light gray.

Frank46 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:22:35 PM »

The first cannon showed in the pics. I see a hammer on the carriage. And what appears a long firing pin. Don't tell me that the hammer was used on the firing pin to ignite the charge?. Or am I missing something here. Beautiful pics. Frank

KABAR2 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2009, 03:51:10 PM »

If I remember right these were fired with a friction primer, the current owner's with the modification to

12 ga, set a rod through the primer hole and use a hammer,

Hey! who ever is making the ivory models must have copied this cannon from a photo, they have a hammer for firing it also!

cannonmn · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2009, 04:19:10 PM »

[yt=425,350]_ybqgJyrBMc[/yt]

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2009, 05:40:20 PM »

Were those guns ever used in battle?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2009, 09:20:16 PM »

Thanks for the video, Cannonmn; I don't recall seeing this one before. Where is the vent located on this gun, it's hard to tell where you're putting the friction primer in the vid?

Here's a book that has a drawing of the gun on its carriage, but it is only the carriage that is described in detail. In this book the gun is called the "3-inch steel boat gun," pp. 393-397. I found another reference to the gun in an archived New York Times article from Dec. of 1874 where the gun is called a "light howitzer of 350 pounds."

A text book of naval ordnance and gunnery 1880

KABAR2 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2009, 09:40:32 PM »

It would appear memory is wrong, from the video the friction primer is located higher up on the breech,

which means the yacht club cannon was modified solely for firing the 12 ga blank.

thanks for the video cannonmn, great to see one in action.

BoonJ nice find on the book!

Allen <><

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:39:48 AM »

Thanks for the link. I think I see what this is now, the "internet archive." I clicked on title and it went back to their homepage on this book. I've found some stuff in the IA before, but at first didn't recognize the format at the level it was linked from your post.

To answer BoomJ earlier question re friction primer, there's a hole near the top of the breechblock for it. The flame goes thru an "L" shaped path to get to the front of the breechblock and into the center of the rear of the chamber.

One thing that is still a bit mysterious is why some of these Navy rifled howitzers have the vent in a "normal" position which is on top of the barrel, and some (mine anyway) have the vent at the top rear of the breechblock. Anyone know?

BTW there were a few different models of this weapon, the 350 lb. steel tube as shown in my video, and a 500 steel tube version. In our collection here there is one of the 350 lb. models as shown in the video, and two of the 500 lb. models. Both of the 500 lb. models have the vent on top of the barrel. The Washington Navy Yard also produced a few bronze-barrelled versions of the 350 lb. model, and I seem to recall, a few in the 500 lb. as well. I've seen a couple of the bronze 350 lbs. models, but none of the bronze 500 lb. examples.

artillerybuff · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:00:15 AM »

Great video cannonmn! Very nice cannon too.

Anthony Variz

Cannoneer · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:42:29 AM »

Cannonmn,

This is the reason I asked about the location of the vent; are parts of this archived New York Times article accurate? Part of the article jibes with your statement that there were also 500 pound versions of this gun, but it also states that both guns fired fixed ammo (metallic cartidges), and the 500 pound gun could also be fired with a cartridge bag. Could it be that some versions of this gun did have a firing pin mechanism located through the center of the breech block door?

Scroll down to around the fifth paragraph: "Breech Loading Howitzers."

New York Times article, Dec. 4, 1874.

cannonmn · « **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:46:56 AM »

Quote

Could it be that some versions of this gun did have a firing pin mechanism located through the center of the breech block door?

I think the question is still open. There's no place for a cartridge extractor that I can see, that's another issue. I've never seen one of these that was set up for cartridges. If it has a vent in the top of the chamber, I'd think firing cartridges would be out. However I guess it is still a possibility for those with vent in center of breechblock. I've never heard whether any of these were issued which fired cartridges. I kind of doubt it since I don't think any such cartridge cases survied, at least i've never heard of one. i will ask an antique arty. cartridge case expert and collector and see what he says.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:07:55 PM »

I'm not done yet, but so far, I haven't found a wealth of information on this gun on the WWW. I really like the looks of this gun on its proper carriage, and since seeing your video of it in action I like it even more. This cannon appears to be pretty accurate; do you have a pic of a real projectile, was it a lead band that the the rifling engaged?

Max Caliber · « **Reply #26 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:38:55 PM »

Information with the gun in reply #11 stated, in part, " In about 1876 trials were started with the 3-Inch Steel Howitzer, using a metalic cartridge devised by Mr. B. B. Hotchkiss... for comparison of effect." It didn't say if the Hotchkiss cartridge was adopted, however, probably not.

cannonmn · « **Reply #27 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:48:22 PM »

Quote

do you have a pic of a real projectile, was it a lead band that the the rifling engaged?

The real projectiles use a copper rotating band centered along the length of the shell, not at the base as in current practice. The band was also a good deal longer than later copper bands for arty projectiles. As I recall it had what looked like built-in ripples (waves) along the surface. I will see if I can track down a photo or two. I do know that the 350 lb. and 500 lb. versions used different projectiles, that for the 500 lb. being logically a bit longer and heavier than the other. I have one of the projectiles but it isn't here now.

cannonmn · « **Reply #28 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:59:10 PM »

This NYT article linked above states that both sizes of the steel BLH's use the same projectile-that sounds more logical, but I've seen two different lengths of projectiles and was told they were for one or the other respectively. I'm not sure which source is correct but having them both use the same projectiles makes a world of sense.

The article also explains the few bronze barrelled weapons vs. the many steel ones.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9A06E2DC173DE43BBC4C53DFB467838F669FDE

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** November 16, 2009, 04:27:36 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on November 15, 2009, 05:40:20 PM

Were those guns ever used in battle?

Seven of these guns were used by U.S. Navy & Marine forces in an amphibious assault in Korea in 1871.

American - Korean Conflict 1871