Author Topic: Diplomat launcher (Read 1032 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** November 16, 2009, 05:06:22 AM »

You would never know this monument was constructed of a real cannon unless you looked closely. The way I found this was during research of a model of this cannon that I've had for some time. The same model I have is pictured in the famous Brown collection catalog, bottom of pp. 39. The Brown collection catalog is a great reference for small, original bronze cannons (and a few larger ones.) The model is 21 3/4 inches long and is made on a scale of one inch to the foot (that's engraved on it in French.) So the original barrel that was made into this monument in Brest is 21 3/4 feet long if I'm not mistaken. The model's barrel weighs 15 lbs. and is bored out per the real one. I plan to post pix of the model when I get a chance.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.topic-topos.com/la-consulaire-brest&ei=snUBS8P_GIGxlAfUgaGKCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dle%2Bconsulaire%2Bcanon%2Balgers%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS339US339

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #1 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:10:56 AM »

That's a long one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cannonmn · « **Reply #2 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:16:48 AM »

The original Algerian name for this cannon is Baba Marzog, according to this website. There's a bit more history of it here. The Algerians want it back of course.

Quote

MODERATOR WARNING: Be sure you have secuity swuit turned on before trying to access this webist- it trys to load IE addon's in the back ground and my Security suite did npt recognize the add-ons--DD

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://forum.e-dz.com/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D1507&ei=D3kBS7eFN8fDlAfz95GeCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBQQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dle%2Bconsulaire%2Bcanon%2Balgiers%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS339US339

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:22:54 AM »

Quote from: cannonmn on November 16, 2009, 05:16:48 AM

The original Algerian name for this cannon is Baba Marzog, according to this website. There's a bit more history of it here. The Algerians want it back of course.

MODERATOR WARNING: Be sure you have secuity swuit turned on before trying to access this webist- it trys to load IE addon's in the back ground and my Security suite did npt recognize the add-ons--DD

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://forum.e-dz.com/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D1507&ei=D3kBS7eFN8fDlAfz95GeCw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBQQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dle%2Bconsulaire%2Bcanon%2Balgiers%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS339US339

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:28:47 AM »

Sorry 'bout the add-on thing, my computer didn't do anything unusual when I went to it. Maybe it will self-destuct later who knows.

Anyway here's a site that should be safe enuf, with pix you can expand by clicking on them. The people in the foreground give a better idea of the size of this gun. I'm a bit surprised I've never seen pix before, in all the time I've been chasing cannons. Maybe that's because this gun is on a French military base not open to the public except on certain holidays, such as when these pix were taken.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.wiki-brest.net/index.php/Consulaire&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dle%2Bconsulaire%2Bcanon%2Balgiers%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLJ_enUS339US339&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhiczgR8nj2pyEdFQD2b6scDB5TImw

KABAR2 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:32:49 AM »

Thanks for the warning!

I get a kick out of the losers asking for their toys back more than a 100 years later....... to the victor go the spoils..........

If you don't want to lose stuff don't get into a war and lose.

there are too many countries getting a pissy crybaby attitude about what was taken as war prizes that need to be returned.

where will it stop?

Cannoneer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2009, 05:51:55 AM »

I guess that even after all the years that have passed, some bad blood still exists between these two former combatants. The Algerian who wrote this has an amusing way of expressing himself.

You see on the opening of the canon on the top they put a french chicken, oh sorry ... it is a rooster. With such bad company, no doubt our canon must feel humiliated and terribly lonely there. It is more than time for it to come back home under the blue sky of its beloved city: Algiers.
If anyone lives near the city of Brest please go there and take photos of our Baba Marzoug. Tell him we still remember and will never forget.

cannonmn · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:04:39 AM »

Here's a small pic of another model of the gun, which I found on a website. The caption indicates the model is displayed in the Navy Museum in Paris. I have the catalog which has no photo (in my edition of the catalog anyway) but has a good description, item 814. Here's the pic from the web-I suspect the barrel is the same but carriage differs. This picture has to be pretty old because it is in black and white, and also the museum catalog number is different.

dan610324 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:35:04 AM »

when I looked at that photo it remained me about something very very odd that I have
sorry I dont remember the name of the monument , but it was cast from war trophy bronze cannons that the germans got from the danish somewhere in the early 1800, so its cannon related

I got a small copy of that monument , just an ordinary tourist souvernir if it had not been for the date
its dated : berlin 1945
I dont know much about the monument , but I sure know that berlin in 1945 wasnt any ordinary place for tourists to visit .
there wasnt any town left , just a pile of gravel
so the question is , what is this ??

Fooler · « **Reply #9 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:08:02 AM »

dan610324

You have a model of the Siegessaule, or "Victory Column", or known to the Berliners as "Golden Lizzy".
Its in the Tiergarten in what was West Berlin, on a traffic circle, about one mile west of the Brandenburg Gate.
It was designed and built 1860-1870 ish.The very wide street that it sits on was left almost untouched by
bombing raids, and as such it was used often by small aircraft to get in and out of downtown Berlin,
up until the very last days of the war.
My question about the little 'Lizzy" is this. What war relics were melted down to cast what looks like a
bronze or copper copy of the big "Lizzy". In 1945 Berlin I dont think newly smelted metals would have been
wasted in a toy statue.You may have a recast peice of history.

Fooler

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2009, 08:40:27 AM »

Slideshow of "Consulaire" model. Measurements: Bore 1.06 in. dia. Barrel length: 21.87 in. Weight: 26,714 lbs. (oh no, that's the original) The model's barrel weighs about 15 lbs.

The part of the engraving you can't see on the basering is the last part of the date, 5 July 1830, which I think is the date the original was captured.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/myartillery/my%20artillery3/consulaire/?action=view&current=74698180.pbw

KABAR2 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 16, 2009, 09:57:47 AM »

A very nice model, it appears the Craftsman had no Idea what the carriage looked like, I wounder about the oriental brass work on the sides of it.

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:15:40 AM »

Quote

it appears the Craftsman had no Idea what the carriage looked like,

I never liked that carriage either, no idea who made it nor when. It is unique however and since it is pictured in the Brown catalog just like you see it there, it fills in a part of the recent provenance of the model.

I saw the Brown catalogs for sale on evil-bay or somewhere (Gunbr?) for $15. If they are original on slick paper and not reprints that's a good price, lots of good info and examples in that book. It doesn't always identify them correctly but often gives the marks, which makes it worth its weight in platinum for me.

dan610324 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:26:53 AM »

welcome to the board fooler
yes you are probably correct there
bronz or brass must have been almost as rare as gold in berlin at that time
It would be lovely if this little piece could talk

is it anyone who got any ideas or wild guesses on this one ??
Im sure it aint any normal tourist piece
but who bought it will probably forever been unansvered

RocklockI · « **Reply #14 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:19:06 AM »

That long cannon could be used to ........well "Make Statesmen from politicians"

Maybe call it "Martyrmaker"

(however it would be spelled !!!)

They go in as politicians and then by shear magic when they come back to earth they are Statesmen ....

WIN,WIN

RocklockI · « **Reply #15 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »

Dan , could it be a post war thing that comemerated the end of Nazi Germany ?

dan610324 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:06:16 PM »

I got no idea at all
but I would guess that it wasnt that many made of them in 1945

Cannoneer · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2009, 06:28:10 PM »

Quote from: dan610324 on November 16, 2009, 06:35:04 AM

when I looked at that photo it remained me about something very very odd that I have
sorry I dont remember the name of the monument , but it was cast from war trophy bronze cannons that the germans got from the danish somewhere in the early 1800, so its cannon related
I got a small copy of that monument , just an ordinary tourist souvernir if it had not been for the date
its dated : berlin 1945
I dont know much about the monument , but I sure know that berlin in 1945 wasnt any ordinary place for tourists to visit .
there wasnt any town left , just a pile of gravel
so the question is , what is this ??

Quote from: dan610324 on November 16, 2009, 10:26:53 AM

welcome to the board fooler
yes you are probably correct there
bronz or brass must have been almost as rare as gold in berlin at that time
It would be lovely if this little piece could talk

is it anyone who got any ideas or wild guesses on this one ??
Im sure it aint any normal tourist piece
but who bought it will probably forever been unansvered

Dan,
There would have been a good number of tourists in Germany at that time (1945). American, British, Russian and other Allied soldiers, and many of them would have been looking for souvenirs to take home. While there's no question that Germany was in a shambles at this time, the black market there would have been thriving; this might be a reasonable explanation for your statue.

dan610324 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:50:07 AM »

sorry , didnt think of them as tourists

but you are sure right

cannonmn · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:12:33 AM »

I've posted a question on another board, "mechanically translated" into Frog-ese, trying to find out who cast these models, how many were cast, for whom cast, etc.

http://questions-reponses.ebay.fr/thread.jspa?threadID=900176942

RocklockI · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:57:49 AM »

Quote from: dan610324 on November 17, 2009, 02:50:07 AM

sorry , didnt think of them as tourists
but you are sure right

Come on Dan ,we are tourits where ever we go . In fact many troops wear a loud colorfull Hawian (sp) shirt under there uniforms , cause you just never know if a Party MIGHT be going on !

gary

Cannoneer · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:04:24 AM »

Cannonmn,
Another interesting model (I've never read anything about this cannon before) you've posted on the board; I've got the feeling you could post a picture of a different ordnance model every day, and take up a good portion of the calendar in the process.
In one of the sites you posted it is said that the cannon was made by a Venetian gun founder in 1542; if true, I'd find this history fascinating in its own right, because the Venetians weren't too fond of Muslims at this time, but I guess then like now, gold trumps many other considerations.
I enlarged the pics of the real cannon, and you can clearly see the lugs/projections near the breech on the barrel; the eyes that held the rings on the chase are also clearly visible (I wonder why they removed the rings). I took a good look at the model carriage, and those lugs make a lot of sense; they would stop the barrel from sliding/rotating from the recoil. The early European and English trunnionless cannons were mounted in carriages that had cut-outs, or carved hollows that the barrels nestled in, with their breeches abutting solid wood.

cannonmn · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:13:49 AM »

Thanks BoomJ. One of the Frenchmen politely told me I was on the wrong discussion board for that kind of info, so I moved it to their "collectibles" board which I hadn't found when I made the initial posting. I don't read French so there's probably a lot more I missed there.

http://forums.ebay.fr/thread.jspa?threadID=500071422