Author Topic: full or neck (Read 2154 times)

bobg · « **on:** October 18, 2003, 01:46:39 PM »

What are the rest of you folks doing with your Contender brass? Do you full length or just neck size it. Seems like i heard some where that you should always full length resize Contender brass. Set me straight guys. What's the proper way?

Thanks for your advice,
bobg

KYODE · « **Reply #1 on:** October 18, 2003, 02:15:55 PM »

full length is the only thing i can get away with. i've heard of others neck sizing, but it doesn't work for me. the encore will not cock, and the contender misfires, if i even try to partial size :cry: . right now i'm adjusting the dies to full length size and bump the shoulder back to slightly(.001") less than the barrel to frame gap. or should i say, i'm trying to do that. i don't have a headspace gauge to be exact. i fully intend to get one, because it's difficult to get it just right. i set the dies off the shellholder with a feeler gauge, so i know exactly where i'm at in the future. i've fought this all summer, but i have learned a great deal as to what is gonna work for me. i've heard that plastigauge can be bought at a local auto parts store to get the exact barrel to frame gap. i don't know what it is, or how to use it yet, but i'm gonna try to get some to find out. my scope bases hang over the rear of the action some, which prevents getting a measurement with feeler gauges.
anyway, thats what i've figured out so far for KYODE :wink:

mranch · « **Reply #2 on:** October 18, 2003, 03:27:39 PM »

What I did was get a Bellm Indiacator base. This little tool will let you get your brass sized exactly!!! No more guessing, full size to fit YOUR barrel!!
Get one, you'll be surprised!!!

Bob

longwinters · « **Reply #3 on:** October 18, 2003, 04:15:00 PM »

I have always just neck sized and always had good results. I think it may have something to do with the chambers on these barrels not all being exactly the same . . . I dont know. But neck sizing works for me.

long

xphunter · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2003, 04:59:19 PM »

Full Length.

Ernie

myronman3 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2003, 04:28:17 AM »

i neck size with my 30-30. works great and is alot least effort.
you are probably aware of this, but you are not supposed to neck size unless the brass has been fired IN YOUR CHAMBER at least once. otherwise it might not work. once it has been fired in your chamber, it should be a perfect fit (in theory). and then that ammo should be used ONLY FOR THAT FIREARM. dont mean to state the obvious but someone might have overlooked this point (or not). to me, necksizing is a godsend.

KYODE · « **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2003, 05:20:09 AM »

i did a little brass test in my 6tcu. i reloaded the same 20 cases over and over 8 times. one thing, i was curious as to what kinnda brass life the 6tcu would have. what i learned was, that on the 3rd firing, misfires started to show up. about 2-3 out of 20 reloaded cases misfired. they would go off on the second drop of the hammer, if you slammed the action shut. on the 4th loading of those cases misfires were up to about 8 in 20. again they would go off if you slammed the barrel shut, and dropped the hammer for a second time. there was no mark on the primer, on the first try. i had been partial sizing, and not bumping the shoulder back. i checked to see how much fired case was sticking out of a removed barrel at the next loading. they had grown untill .010" of case were protruding above flush with the chamber end. definately the cause of my misfires. i adjusted my full length sizer down till the fired cases were approximately protruding .002" above flush. next outing, not a single misfire. problem solved! had i not loaded those same 20 cases over and over, it may have taken a very long time before i rotated thru a couple hundred formed cases 4 times and found that problem. i learned a great deal, at an accelerated rate, by the little test.
so, if you're getting by neck sizing now, just be aware that problems may not develope for a good ways down the road. i suppose a lot of this would also depend on if you are loading close to max loads. it may occur sooner, or later down the road. a guy just hunting and shooting with a few rounds per year may not have problems for a good long time. when it happens for this reason, know what to do. full length size, and make the ammo fit the gun. also, NEVER push shoulders back too far, till a fired case goes below flush. it could misfire in this manner also. it would also over work your brass, and could lead to a complete head separation. yep, i've done that one too! :roll: hope this helps someone now, if not later. thanks for listening :money: :money:

KYODE

ps: full length size until you get .001" less than the measured barrel to frame gap for a correct fit. :grin:

Possum · « **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2003, 06:37:07 AM »

I am new to reloading, but my groups drastically reduced when I started full sizing and quit with the neck sized brass. Maybe it's an experience thing, but I'm going with what works.

Duffy · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2003, 06:42:21 AM »

Kyode;

I found the same thing on my 708 except I didn't get any misfires just the hard closing of the action and accuracy fell off. Usually on the 4th reloading with mild loads and the 2nd or 3rd with max loads the shoulder needed to be pushed back. I made a make shift length gauge to set my sizer dies with and that helped quite a bit. Have since bought a Stoney point gauge. One thing I did notice is that if you have a case that is streched more than another you may have to size it twice to get it to the proper length according to the gauge. I suppose this is do to flex in the system and springiness of the brass.
On the plastigauge; It's a thin piece of round plastic about like a hair. In normal usage a piece is layed on a engine bearing and the assembly is torqued together. You then take it back apart and measure how wide the plastic is flattened. They are available in different ranges, .0005-.0015 .0015-.002, ect. I don't think it will work that well on the bbl gap because of the movement when you close it may smear the gauge. I may still have some and could try it but thin shim stock or feeler gauges may work better.

Ryan

KYODE · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2003, 08:43:10 AM »

thanks duffy! if you find that plastigauge, see if it works. if it does, i'll pick some up, if the auto parts store has it.
ditto on the 7-08. mine was also hard closing on the first firing with mild loads. bumped the shoulder back and got better accuracy, and easier closing. i think my 7-08, and it's action,has the largest barrel to frame gap of any i have, but i need to get an accurate measurement.
i think the headspace indicator that mranch mentioned is only about $30. i may try to pick one up soon.

myronman3 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 19, 2003, 11:08:41 AM »

kyode- good post; i will keep that in mind and and eye open for that. thanks for the info!

bobg · « **Reply #11 on:** October 19, 2003, 12:37:04 PM »

Thanks for the info guys. I think i'll just keep full length resizing.

Thanks again,
bobg :-)

longwinters · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2003, 02:37:51 PM »

Gee, now I am not sure what to do. I am shooting brass that has been shot 4-5 times. Accuracy is good but I did get a misfire this weekend. I am shooting lite loads but now I wonder. I reloaded another 20 last nite so when I shoot again I will have to see what happens.

long

KYODE · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2003, 04:23:12 PM »

perform your own little experiment with a few cases to see if it gets worse. take a set of feeler gauges that goes down to .0015" or so, and try to get a measurement of how much a fired case sticks out of the barrel, with the barrel removed from the frame. it's kinnda tricky to judge, but just feel with your fingernail or eyeball the case with the feeler blade in good light. if you carefully adjust the die down in very small increments (lubing each time) you can see the resized case matching up to a thinner blade. ideally, you want .001" less sticking out than the barrel to frame gap, which i can't measure yet. on my 6tcu, it has little gap, so i sized till i had approximately .002" of fired case protruding from the barrel. misfires disappeared.

Bullseye · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2003, 05:39:04 PM »

I neck size 30-30 and 22 Hornet. When I had a 35 Rem it did better with full length sizing. Could there be a difference in what to use depending on whether or not it is a rimmed or rimless case?

KYODE · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2003, 01:32:41 AM »

rimmed or rimless should be the same. i havn't setup my size die for the 30-30AI as of yet. i have just been sizing regular 30-30 brass in the improved die, which just sizes the neck. i have fire formed a lot of cases, but only shot them as 30-30 improved for load developement. so, those rimmed cases will grow just as a rimless will.

xphunter · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2003, 01:59:00 AM »

This is a good discussion. The "......." Headspace Indicator is a neat tool that allows you to know for sure exactly what is going on with your particular set-up. I wished I had one of them 18 years ago when I was shooting Contenders exclusively. I think it is one of the best kept secrets when it comes to loading for break open actions. Back then I know things worked out because #1 I always used full length dies and #2 I got lucky.
Ernie

MnMike · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2003, 03:20:28 PM »

I have had very good luck neck resizing with the Lee collet die. I think that the lack of push and pull on the brass keeps it from stretching and requiring full length resizing. Just my theory.

Mike :grin:

KYODE · « **Reply #18 on:** October 21, 2003, 03:13:21 AM »

i just ordered the headspace indicator. i think it will be much easier for me to size exactly as they need to be with it. i've been guessing, and thats slow, and aggravating at times. plus, i can use it to know exactly how far i'm off the lands with the bullet. can't wait to try it out!

Duffy · « **Reply #19 on:** October 21, 2003, 05:10:32 PM »

Hey Kyode:

I scrounged up some plastigauge out of my tool box and gave it a try. It was pretty old and dried up but it seemed to work pretty well. The stuff I had was Perfect Circle brand and it's range was .002-.006. By using that on my 454 bbl it measured about .006 end gap. If you get some, it use to come in a paper sleeve with the measurements printed on the outside. You simply tear off a measurement strip with the plastigauge inside. Take the plastigauge out (its like a small thread of plastic/wax) and place it on the top of your bbl face and close the action. Open the action and use the gauge on the paper to measure how flat the stuff is.
Another way of measuring how high the brass is above the bbl is to use your dial caliper and use the depth rod on the end. Just make sure to zero it on a flat surface before.
Hope this helps ya some.
Ryan

Sverre A. · « **Reply #20 on:** October 21, 2003, 08:51:14 PM »

Neck size

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2003, 04:58:25 AM »

I must be in the minority as well. The point that each barrel is different may apply as well. My experience is limited to 14" bull barrels, all T/C factory stock in the following: 7-30 Waters, 35 Rem., 30 Herrett, 357 Herrett, 7mmTCU. I neck size exclusively for these bottlenecks and achieve MOA or better with them. (Please don't take that as a bragging statement)

Don't have any problems with misfires (the 35 Remington was a little cantankerous, but we came to an agreement - read: I set my die correctly), and brass life is acceptable.

Now, for the flip side of the coin. Partial sizing of my .41 Mag didn't work very well. Accuracy and brass life was greatly improved when I started full length sizing the brass. I thought if neck sizing works for me, why not on a straight wall cartridge - leaving the majority of the case at chamber dimensions? Bad move, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

Graycg · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2003, 05:59:58 AM »

I've gone to all full length in most of my contenders now and am happy for it. I had fits with several 35 rems, bought bought new dies, brass, factory rounds, tried different frames, etc still had fits.
I bought Bellm's indicator base and found out that I really needed to full length them, but not oversize them to get them right.
I have two exceptions one is a Bullberry tight chambered 223 barrel and the other is a virgin valley 7-30 barrel and both of these barrels have responded extremely well to neck sizing, but I index those rounds in the chamber. I don't neck size for case life, I do it because these barrels shoot noticably better with necksized cases.
T/C Nimrod, if you are gonna partial size a straight wall case, you need to make sure you index the cases in the chamber the same way every time. I tried that for a while and while it worked ok, the gain wasn't worth the pain and I just went back to full length sizing.

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #23 on:** October 22, 2003, 08:08:01 AM »

Gray - Thanks for the tip. Yep, did that. Nope, won't do it again. I still catch myself loading the barrel to the index point even since I'm full length resizing - it's a disease I tell ya.

haroldclark · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2003, 02:51:02 PM »

I too. must be in the minority on this subject. I neck size always. So far this year I have loaded and fired 5,197 rounds of full powered 7mmTCU cartridges. I use them in a 10" and 14" Contender and more of them in a Remington 700 chambered for 7mm TCU. I keep the brass separate for each firearm. I use the same loading in each gun.

I have loaded and fired a grand total of 10,973 rounds since 1/1/03 to this date. The cartridges consist of 7 Mauser, 30-30 TC, 30-30 rifles, 308 rifles, 30-06, 6.5X55mm and many more. Most of the loadings are for bottle neck cases.

How I manage to do this is, I use a neck size only die. The decap/expander pin is reduced to undersize for the neck and does not even touch the inside of the case neck. In another stage on the Dillon Progressive Machine, I have a Lyman M-1 die of the correct size for the cartridge. The M-1 Die opens the neck to the proper dimensions and a bullet is seated in the next station. There is no stretching or pulling on the neck.

Of course, I have to full length size for the 14" 357 Maximum and the 10" 357 magnum, 32 H&R barrel, 30 Carbine Barrel, as well as my 444 Marlin Rifle.

Full length sizing is just too much work and time consuming. I'd rather be out shooting.

Harold Clark

KYODE · « **Reply #25 on:** October 23, 2003, 01:49:54 AM »

that is a bunch of shooting! now i'm wondering why i can't neck size or partial size? am i pulling the necks out some? i absolutely have to bump the shoulders back for proper headspace. if not, the contender misfires, the encore either does not allow the hammer to cock, or is hard to close with the 7-08. if haroldclark shoots thousands of full power loads, why does it not work for some? i'm fine with full length sizing, and i think the headspace indicator will make my work easier. sounds like a cheaper route too, if you have to have that many gadgets to get away with neck sizing.
t/c nimrod, i'm curious as to how warm your loads are, and how many times fired your brass is?
i'm just trying to figure out how it works for some, and not others :?

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #26 on:** October 23, 2003, 02:16:16 AM »

Quote

Full length sizing is just too much work and time consuming

I was with you up to this statement. I'm not sure I understand how full length sizing is any more "work" then neck sizing. Enlightenment?

T/C nimrod · « **Reply #27 on:** October 23, 2003, 02:38:38 AM »

Quote

t/c nimrod, i'm curious as to how warm your loads are, and how many times fired your brass is?

Well...........Is that a trick question? :grin:

The loads I seem to settle on are usually somewhere in the middle of a load ramp. I do shoot stiff loads during development, as they are the top end of a given ramp. In other words, hot loads are being shot but not as a standard. I load for maximum accuracy and bullet performance (meaning at least minimal velocity for proper bullet expansion), I'm not a velocity junky.

As far as brass life - eaqch caliber is a little different, just because of the amount of field/range time they get. the lowest number I have documented is the .30 Herret at 7 reloads (plus one fireforming load). The highest number I (had) was with my 7-30 Waters using 30-30 Winchester brass at 26 reloads (plus one fireforming). I say "had" because at the last firing I started getting a head seperation ring, so when the remaining rounds are depleted I'll start a new batch of brass.

I don't know if it will help your search, but I seperate my brass by weight and volume. Once I settle on a powder/bullet/primer combo, I'll use only the most uniform brass out of a given lot. This is within a given percentage of +/-. One other thing I don't do is neck turn - maybe that makes a difference. Keep us/me posted about your findings as to "why".

KYODE · « **Reply #28 on:** October 23, 2003, 04:36:44 AM »

don't worry about me, i'm not smart enough to trick you :wink:
yet another thing that makes me go hmmm? your brass is definately fired enough, and loaded warm enough to facilitate full length sizing then. well, if i was using them anyway(with my luck). i do try to find a near max, book listed load that gives good accuracy. that could explain my having to push shoulders back some to get good function of my guns. or it could be that i'm pulling the necks out a little when i resize. maybe one of these days, i'll get it all figured out. i wouldn't hold my breath though. :lol:

haroldclark · « **Reply #29 on:** October 23, 2003, 06:06:55 AM »

Hello T/C nimrod & KYODE

When we full length size a case it requires cleaning in a mechanical tumbler/vibrator machine with ground corncob media (some people use ground walnut hulls). This type of cleaning removes the lubricant from the case. I use a Dillon reloading machine and the cleaning process interupts the reloading process by removing each cartridge after FL sizing and waiting for the cleaning process and reloading the cartridge cases in the machine a second time.

If you lube the case for sizing, I have found that it is very time consuming to hand wipe the cases. Handwiping the cases, even with a solvent, still leaves some lubricant in the metal pores of the case. There are two serious problems with any lubricant on the brass case. One is when the cartridge is fired, it expands and grips the chamber wall. The lubricant allows the cartridge case to slip back toward the breach block before the heat fries the lubricant. This action will cause the overall case length to grow, especially after several firings. The second issue is the remaining fried lubricant will also, change the ease of extraction from the chamber. The extraction difference may or may not be noticed.

The headspace gauge is a great tool. However, it is rare that any two chambers are of the same dimensions. I set up my sizing dies and test them in the chamber that they will be used in. However, if you are loading for a semi-auto like the 223 or 308 rifles for serious business, I would use the headspace gauge to be assured that all rounds will fit and fire.

Kyode: You might consider the cleaning issue of remaining lubricant on your cases. I would love to have a 7-08 in the Encore. I recently acquired an Encore in .243. A 7-08 is in my future if my elbow holds out.
Too many gadgets? I only added the Lyman M-1 die a couple of years ago to ease the strain on extraction of the neck expander balls from the case necks. The expander ball extraction, in my opinion, is a cause of sretching the neck. It is like drawing metal tubing. It also does not draw the metal evenly. You may notice that the case mouth becomes out of square after several resizings. That will be the expander stretching. I have tried carbide expander balls with minimal improvement.

Another contributor inquired about the power of my loads. I stay away from maximum loads as I don't find any need for them. Example: 7X57 Mauser with 175 gr bullet and 38.4 gr of BL-C2 at 2400 fps. That will slam dunk a 55 pound steel Ram at 500 Meters (546 yards) with a retained 907 foot pounds of energy at the target. My 7TCU loads are running out the 14" tube at 1850 fps with 26.6 gr of H335 behind a 140 gr Remington bulk bullet. With the Burris 7X scope, that load will head shoot the 500 meter Ram. Doesn't always knock it down, but I am just delighted to hit it and after several hits, it will fall over. (don't have to set targets so often, either).

30-30s and cartridges that headspace on the rim are serious candidates for Neck Sizing Only if used in the same firearm. I use very modes lead loads in my 10" 30-30 and never have to resize. I have a 30-30 Marlin Cowboy and I use a moderate load at 2000fps and neck size them only. Occasionally, I have a neck sized case that will not fit easily. I hold it out and full length size it, but that is rare and I sometimes think I got the case mixed up from one of the other 30-30s I use. I try to separate the 4 30-30s by case brand and one set is Nickle.

I shoot 2 times a week with 3 friends. They all neck size, but the don't use the M-1 die and one of them recently went to the Redding Bushing neck sizing die on all his cartridges (a bunch of cartridges). The bushing die sizes the neck to the exact required or desired inside neck dimensions.
He is very happy with those dies. My buddies shoot as much as I do and they rarely full length size.

KYODE: Have you checked the headspacing on your TC. All barrels don't fit a given frame the same. I have a frame that some barrels will not close easily and another frame that fits too loosely with my 7TCU 14" and it will not shoot as accurately as a better fitting frame. It will also, allow primer cratering. I still don't understand that cratering. Other barrels work well with that suspect frame. Who knows!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harold Clark