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Author Topic: American Troops who Avoid Deployment  (Read 3519 times)

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Offline Mohawk

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American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« on: November 16, 2009, 05:27:58 PM »
  I keep reading articles about US troops avoiding deployment for this, that, and the other. My take is YOU joined the military. You enjoy the benefits, pay, and took an oath of service. If you can't do your job then get out and work at Wal-Mart or something..... ::)
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Offline skarke

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 05:36:16 PM »
As a veteran, I cannot imagine how someone could "refuse" deployment, without risking a BCD, or worse.  A BCD, or DD, follows a vet forever, and will pretty much wreck his life.

I read a couple of weeks ago that the US Armed Forces had their best recruiting year in over a decade.  There are brave men and women who get what's going on, and are willing to defend this country.  It warms my heart that we are raising such fine youth, and gives me hope for the future.
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Offline Mohawk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 05:46:05 PM »
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 05:49:21 PM »
Quote from: skarke on November 16, 2009, 05:36:16 PM
As a veteran, I cannot imagine how someone could "refuse" deployment, without risking a BCD, or worse.  A BCD, or DD, follows a vet forever, and will pretty much wreck his life.

I read a couple of weeks ago that the US Armed Forces had their best recruiting year in over a decade.  There are brave men and women who get what's going on, and are willing to defend this country.  It warms my heart that we are raising such fine youth, and gives me hope for the future.
You need to speak plain English here for us that have never been in the service. I have no idea what you just said. Thanks Dale
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 05:49:56 PM »
  the most famous boxer i know ,,still is no hero to me.. he made his millions enjoying this country ,,then became a conciencuos object ,when called to duty..he knows why he did that today ,,even in his cripple state.. what he doesn t know is the names of my school friends who didn t come back.. he was the greatest boxer of a decade mabe.. but i ll never forget we had to go ,,he didn t..
 hes just one who got publicity for it... i wonder how many congressmens sons avoided it due to thier parents connections..slim
 ps dale bcd bad conduct discharge.. dd dishonorable dischrge..dishonorable discharges are fairly rare..
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 05:53:02 PM »
Quote from: slim rem 7 on November 16, 2009, 05:49:56 PM
  the most famous boxer i know ,,still is no hero to me.. he made his millions enjoying this country ,,then became a conciencuos object ,when called to duty..he knows why he did that today ,,even in his cripple state.. what he doesn t know is the names of my school friends who didn t come back.. he was the greatest boxer of a decade mabe.. but i ll never forget we had to go ,,he didn t..
 hes just one who got publicity for it... i wonder how many congressmens sons avoided it due to thier parents connections..slim
I feel like I am reading another language. I did not cath that either. Dale
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The quality of a mans life is in direct proportion to his commitment to excellence.

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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 05:59:22 PM »
 the man im talking i didn t name to avoid offending his relative etc.. no use shaming them..
 but i don t look on him as a hero..would you believe he is a muzlim..
 might  be a good thing he didn t go though.. what if he turned his gun on his fellow soldiers..
 muzlims that don t put old glory first ,,don t belong in our military jmo. slim
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Offline Skunk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 06:08:15 PM »
Slim, he didn't turn Muzzy until he got drafted. Remember, he was Cassius Clay, then got drafted, then he changed his name to Muhammad Ali. He then used his Muzzyness to get out of going to Vietnam.
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 06:11:44 PM »
yep i remember it all... mabe thats when the crazyness started in this country..
 poor man ,,i won t say much about him now since others have convinced him he was a hero..
 let him pass on ,,in peace.. i just think of the many who did have the courage to
face the fearful task of sticking your head up from cover ,,knowing at any time,,it might be in the crosshairs of a sniper.
 thats the real hero ,,to me..
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Offline Skunk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 06:18:25 PM »
Quote from: slim rem 7 on November 16, 2009, 06:11:44 PM
yep i remember it all.

It is rather weird in his case though. He would have fought any heavyweight boxer (or probably any man) in the world and not thought twice about it, yet he turned total coward at the idea of going to Vietnam. Must have figured the ole "rope-a-dope" wouldn't work against bullets sailing past his head.
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Mike

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Offline teamnelson

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 07:09:09 PM »
Most common means of avoidance is personality disorder unspecified ... high % of dropouts no matter what recruiting reports. Doesn't matter how big the front door is if all the back doors are bigger.
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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »
i used to keep up with boxing..was totaly offended outraged to say the least when refused to go.. that was then...now a years of reading about hime and watching a few special tv shows about him i now believe he truly was a concientious objector.

i know he was influenced by his adoption of the Muslim Faith and the leadership and propaganda of Elijah Muhummed. yet i think that he really did believe.

so i will respect that now.
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Offline Skunk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 07:32:51 PM »
I think I'm wrong about him turning Muzzy after he was drafted. Looking into it, it appears he joined the Muslim faith and changed his name in 1964 but didn't get drafted until 1967. But, we don't know for sure what he was thinking. Maybe he was looking ahead to the possibility of being drafted and conveniently changed his faith as a future means of avoiding the service. We'll probably never know for sure.

I got a kick out of one of his famous quotes: "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong." Hmmm, like any American that served had a quarrel with them. ::)
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Mike

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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 07:39:58 PM »
he was a great fighter no doubt and the more i found out about him i became to admire him as a man.
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Offline Skunk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 07:42:36 PM »
I sure used to rush home to watch his fights on TV. Regardless of his religion or his views, I'd have to say he really was the "Greatest" when it came to boxing.
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Mike

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Offline Sourdough

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2009, 09:31:36 PM »
Dale:  A BCD=Bad Conduct Discharge, DD= Dishonorable Discharge. 

A DD prevents you from working with the US Government, State Government, or any contractor for the Government.  In fact almost no body will hire you.

A BCD is almost as bad.  Think about any job applications you may have ever filled out.  You probably skimmed over the question since you were never in the military.  But most ask if you were ever discharged under other than Honorable Conditions.  If you answer yes you can kiss that job good-bye.  Most employers feel if you can not fulfill your contract with the military, you won't make a good employee, so they don't want anything to do with you.

I don't believe you are allowed to buy a gun period.  The Federal form you fill out I think has that question on it about being discharged under other than Honorable Conditions.  It can haunt you the rest of your life.

Single parents have to furnish a signed statement that they have someone to take care of their kids in the event of a deployment.  Some people furnish that statement as long as they are stationed stateside, where they can draw that paycheck and enjoy the benifits.  When it is time to go overseas they suddenly say they have no one to leave their kid or kids with.  I look at that as fraud.  They either need to go overseas or be prosecuted for fraud.   
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Offline beerbelly

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2009, 01:07:54 AM »
Redtail1949 if you can respect that scum bag , you have some very low requirements for respect.! He was a draft dodger for one reason , he was a coward! Getting into a boxing ring is one thing, putting your life one the line in combat is quite another. He just didn't have the gonads!
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Offline Questor

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 01:20:00 AM »
What's a BCD and a DD? Isn't that a bra size?
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Offline ironglow

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 01:30:55 AM »
Mohawk;
  The article doesn't say that she "got away" with it yet! Still, in this stupid, PC era..she may. She wouldn't have in the old Army, but Jimmie Carter started the destruction of such discipline when he "pardoned' the cowards who ran off to Sweden, Canada etc.

  Dale;
  There is a "section 8" also, which means unfit for service..section 8, BCD, DD and a "general", which means under less than honorable conditions..and I wouldn't want any of them.

  The Muslim boxer;
  Fighting in the ring and fighting in real combat are two different things. The little guy running around in the jungle can kill you just as easily as you can kill him..rather levels the playing field...and we are not playing with at worst... a KO.
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Offline skarke

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 01:42:51 AM »
Sorry Dale and Questor, and thanks Sourdough,

BCD is a Bad Conduct Discharge
DD is a Dishonorable Discharge
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Offline anweis

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 01:45:19 AM »
Quote from: Mohawk on November 16, 2009, 05:27:58 PM
My take is YOU joined the military.

It's betrayal both ways.

They betray our trust that they fight on our behalf. We betrayed their trust that we don't send them to fight needless and stupid wars.

I guess many of them understand by now that Iraq has nothing to do with our fredom and democracy.  
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Offline ironglow

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 01:57:36 AM »
I don't recall anything in the contract which stipulated particulars as to what "kind" of war. As far as to whether any war is or is not defending our Constitution..that could be debated endlessly.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2009, 02:02:19 AM »
Back during the Gulf war, one of our gun mechanics Sgt. Androzi went AWOL on us. He stated "I joined the Army so I could go to college" and split. He was caught a short time later and was never returned to our unit as their was many there who wanted to kill the traitor.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 07:52:02 AM »
Back during Viet Nam, I went to several locations through out the country and picked up prisoners that had been caught AWOL from the military.  I escorted them back to their home base for trial.  Then I escorted them to Ft Leavenworth.  Most said they had only joined to go to college, then split.  Guess they made good bedbugs at Ft Leavenworth.


One guy I will never forget.  He had two years of college when the money ran out.  So he joined the Air Force, and applied for the program where the AF went you to your last two years of college to get your degree.  Then you became an Officer and had a six year commitment.  Upon graduation he split and went to Canada.  In Canada he was able to get a very good job since he had relatives living there.  His relatives lived on both sides of the border, and crossed frequently to visit one another.  Evidently he ticked off someone in the family, and they alerted the Border Guards.  He got picked up and held.  I got the job of going and getting him, since he had been assigned to Civil Engineering prior to going off to school.  Stupid, stupid, person.  He got 15 years in Ft Leavenworth.  That was my first trip to the Fort and those guards scared the heck out of me.  Last time I saw that young man he was standing tall, totally nude, being screamed at by the guards, and being told he was going to make a good bed bug for certain inmates.  Then they started making bets on which inmate was going to coller him first.  I could not get out of that place fast enough.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 08:15:09 AM »
In some respect I think the all volunteer force is the best way to go, but by the same token I think every able bodied American citizen should have to serve at least two years in the military.  Regardless of religious convictions, or other reasons, there is a place everyone can be utilized.  

My first assignment in the Air Force was to Manhattan Beach AF Station in New York, it was a port of embarkation and debarkation for all military services, my job was to pick up personnel that had been picked by law enforcement for AWOL and return them to be court martial and/or shipped overseas.  Even then, with no war going on, we had large numbers that attempted to avoid be shipped overseas.

Things will never change in that respect.  People join for many reasons, afterwards they have second thought, but there are no provisions to back after taking the oath.  Looking back, had I known the US would sacrifice so many lives for nothing in Viet Nam then walk away defected I might have joined in the flee to Canada.  While at the time I had harsh things to say about those that fled today I don’t view them as cowards or turncoats, they evidently had a better insight of what was actually going on that those of us who served.

I think our current was resembles Viet Nam in many respects, we are fighting a ideal, not a country and there is little or no chance of actually winning without eliminating all the muslin in the world, for what are the young men and women today laying their lives on the line for?

We could get out of the politics and bomb the hell of Saudi, that would eliminate most of the terrorist threats around the world. JMHO!
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Offline Redtail1949

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2009, 10:30:59 AM »
i am sure that he knew that with his notority he more than likely would have been assigned someplace like germany or be given a recruiting type job. i really have studied this man and do not believe he was a coward nor a draft dodger.

i have an older brother that did dodge the draft, he was a coward, yet today as he speaks of those times to those that do not know he says he wanted fto go blah blah blah..yet he and i and all my family knows he did not go because he was afraid he might be injured or killed.

see i was scared to death also regardless of all my bragging of just how i would win the war all  by myself. yet i went just like many many thousands did and pissed my pants with fear and threw my guts up at some of the sights i saw more than once. now i am proud that i did go i passed that so called trial of fire.

see i have allways heard a brave man can only die once, a coward dies a thousand deaths. my brother and others like him had no shame in being afraid..... their shame came from not facing that fear and doing what had to be done. see we were all scared to death most every day.

he is on this forum and i am sure as he reads this he is crying in shame. the shame he brought to himself and the shame he brought to his family. he has to live with it and regardless of the good face he shows..he still knows in his heart that someone possibly died or was severly injured in his place. i have no respect for him as a man or any of the so called evaders that went to canada claiming they would not serve as if they were taking some moral stand. the truth the real truth in probably 90% plus of those cases were that those people were nothing but cowards plain and simple that could not overcome their fear and fight. i have not spoken to him since april 1967 and will never speak to him.
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Offline scootrd

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2009, 11:33:07 AM »
Quote from: slim rem 7 on November 16, 2009, 05:49:56 PM
 the most famous boxer i know ,,still is no hero to me.. he made his millions enjoying this country ,,then became a conciencuos object ,when called to duty..he knows why he did that today ,,even in his cripple state.. what he doesn t know is the names of my school friends who didn t come back.. he was the greatest boxer of a decade mabe.. but i ll never forget we had to go ,,he didn t..
 hes just one who got publicity for it... i wonder how many congressmens sons avoided it due to thier parents connections..slim
 ps dale bcd bad conduct discharge.. dd dishonorable dischrge..dishonorable discharges are fairly rare..

Amen ... Good Post ..  

The man changed his name , adopted Islam , and refused to serve, yet he could get into a ring make loads of dough and pummel another man for a purse string.  Some conscientious objector he was. He was far from "The Greatest" in my book.  I also seem to recall a few years back an import  pro basketball player would not stand for the National Anthem. My take , after all the opportunities this country afforded you, you should show respect. They should have canceled his contract and sent him packing back to his home.

Now lets compare the above mentioned to :

Bob Kalsu  - Buffalo Bills Rookie of the Year 1968 , Entered service  1969, deployed to VietNam with the 101st, KIA 1970.

Patrick Tillman -  turned down a Cardinals contract $3.6 million over three years to enlist in the U.S. Army. Died in Afghanistan.  

These are two True American Hero's....  

Even Elvis didn't shirk his responsibilities and he probably could have if he had wanted too given his influence.

During the Vietnam War, 118 out of 234 House members and senators sons eligible for the draft took college deferments to avoid service.

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Offline Mohawk

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 01:00:29 PM »
   The point is, is that if every draftee in 1941 had done this same thing, due to a child, then we would not have won. I have a child that I love and support and have the chance of getting killed daily, going in harm's way dealing with felons. This seems to be just a case of riding the "gravy train", and second guessing when called to duty. Again, don't be a public servant if you can't give EVERYTHING that is asked of you by the citizens.........
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2009, 01:25:36 PM »
There are ways to get out, but you don't wait till you are ready to deploy to do something.  This woman had at least a year to take advantage of the several ways to get out.  She signed the contract, now she needs to go overseas, or go to jail. 

And for those that think I don't know about being a single parent in the military.  I do because I was for a while, when i got divorced.  Later when Sky was born I was still on active duty, as was his Mom.
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What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline The Hermit

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Re: American Troops who Avoid Deployment
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2009, 02:06:52 PM »
Questor Questor Questor, A bra size? Dude, ya gotta get out more. :)



    The Hermit
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