Arrow Penetration Issues

[deerwhacker444]

I need some advice from some seasoned archers.  I've been deer hunting for many years but have killed only a few animals so my experience level is low.  My current setup shoots a 429 gr. arrow @ 275 fps for about 72 ft-lbs of Kinetic energy.  From what I've read, that should be adequate for anything in North America.

I was using these Broadheads from NAP.  They fly right and I though would penetrate well.

I shot a little buck a couple of weeks ago that I posted here:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22075

The shot was at 10 yards.  The arrow penetrated the deer but didn't completely exit.  The fletching was sticking out one side.  Upon examination on field dressing, the arrow hit a rib going in and one going out.  Seeing as how the arrow only touched ribs, I thought the arrow should have passed thru at that distance, but wrote it off to dumb luck.

On Sunday evening, I shot another small buck.  Distance was about 28 yards and he was quartering away.  The arrow entered a little on top and behind the shoulder and stopped.  The buck took off running and the arrow snapped off.  Upon closer examination, the arrow showed penetration to be atleast 9" due to the hair and blood.  The broadhead and about 3" of shaft remained in the buck.  There was very little blood.  After he went in the tree line all sign stopped.  I searched that night and the next morning but couldn't find him.  I would have thought 9" of penetration would be enough to get 1 or both lungs and lead to a quick kill and easy recovery.  But that proved not to be the case.  There is nothing I hate more than feeding the coyotes.

My question is, with penetration being questionable on 2 hit deer, are these broadheads junk?  Could the shape of the tip provide more resistance to penetration than one might think.  I would have thought that with the KE that my bow is putting out, a decent arrow setup would have zipped right thru him.

My cousin has encouraged me to switch to Magnus Stinger Buzzcuts which he has had good success with.  I've heard that they penetrate well.

I'm starting to lose confidence in my gear.  Hitting my target is not a problem but I will start limiting my distance if kills aren't quick and decisive.  I would have thought 30 yards would be no problem but now I'm not so sure.

What do you guys think..?

[Mohawk]

   I killed a doe with a crossbow recently and shot high(265 fps) per PSE. The arrow hit the spine area and only penetrated about 7 inches, I'm guessing contacted awkward bone around the spine. But the deer dropped and is now in my freezer. So, I had the same question as you after that. I watched the outdoor channel last weekend, the PSE bow hunting show. The hunter said his bow had an estimated fps of 348. I watched 5 of his kills. On 3 of those kills you could easily see the shaft and fletching sticking out, not even close to a pass through. He recovered all 5 deer. To me, and I am far from an archery expert since I just started myself, but it seems the second deer may have been hit in a very "boney" area, like mine with my crossbow, that may have prohibited penetration?

[41 mag]

Here is a link to some of the best research on the issue,

http://tradgang.com/ashby/

I hunt with a close friend on their family place. Three years ago he arrows a 170 class buck and had the arrow penetrate only about 3". The buck broke the rest of the shaft off and headed off into the thick brush. Like you he thought it would be an easy follow up. Three days of searching we found nothing, and he was rushed the whole time.

After reading most of Dr. Ashby's info he switched up his whole compliment of archery equipment. I got into it last year and followed along with his recommendations as the bow I purchased was just barely getting 60# of energy with the arrows I was shooting. However, the first buck I shot with it, entered the back between the shoulders and for the most part took out a 2" area of his spine before heading out just in front of his left ham. Since then I have taken several hogs all with pass throughs from various angles.

This year I purchased an Admiral and upped the ante with some 29" FMJ's which come in around 470grs and get right at 270fps. This bumps me up into the 72# range for energy and keeping with the info from Dr Ashby on COC heads, and heavier FOC, I have taken several more hogs with no issues of full pass through. I lost a doe earlier during bow season but still got a full pass through as the arrow was stuck into the ground some 5" behind where she was standing.

Another thing you might look at is how your arrows are hitting the target or flying before impact. IF they have a wide twist to them they will not drive on through as well as if they are flying directly head on. This will rob you of your energy and penetration as mentioned in the text. I had that issue when shooting a particular broadhead and after switching the arrows flew straight. To see how well they really fly get a set of lighted knocks, and film the shot from behind. It will amaze you at how differently one head will fly from another, or when using different length fletching.

Hope this helps, as I realize your issues. Luckily for me, a friend went through the heart ache and helped me out when I got into it. So far so good. Even though I lost the doe, it was not the fault of the equipment, it was a user issue as I am sure the placement had to be off.

[ttank0789]

Someone posted the link to this video a while ago but I figured I'd post it rather than hunt it down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHpVR5SUX8

I'm relatively new to archery and bowhunting as well but based on what's in the video a cut-on-contact braodhead like the magnus stingers would probably be a good choice. I've never used them but after watching Ted Nugent's hunting show a lot I would say it's safe to say they work.

Best of luck to you!

[theoldarcher]

I'm no expert, but I fully agree with the thoughts and informational data shared by 41mag.  I have the utmost respect for Dr. Ashby and the quality of the research in which he has been involved in for years.  I shoot very slow bows by comparison to the modern compounds--my longbows and recurves may spit out speeds of 170 to 200 fps, but honestly I don't know and I don't care. What I do care about is the animal I am attempting to kill and my marksmanship with my weapon of choice.  Throw in a heavier arrow and a razor-sharp cut-on-impact fixed-blade broadhead of good construciton, and generally I pull my arrows out of the ground on the other side of smaller animals like deer and bears.  Which leaves great, short blood trails to dead animals.

Two in a row??  I would be looking at beefing up my equipment and thinking about switching broadheads.

Best of luck, Arch

[hunt-m-up]

I'm of the opinion that deer are thin-skinned and really don't require coc broadheads for complete pass-thrus especially at average bow ranges under 30 yards, Muzzys,Thunderheads, and Wasps have killed a lot of deer. I've shot a wide variety of expandables and fixed blade heads and am currently shooting a 100 grn low profile head with a sharpened chisel point, the blades are solid and .030 so no give on contact with ribs,etc. With 9 grn/inch carbons they really provide great pass throughs. I usually only draw between 57-63#, so not a lot of poundage is required.  At 10 yards shooting the set-up you describe, you should have had trouble finding the arrow on the ground on the other side or it will be buried a few inches in the ground.
I would say the 2nd shot hit bone. I usually watch FOC balance on my arrows and paper tune the whole set-up. Erratic arrow flight such as a strong right or left kick will really rob your arrows of energy and you can imagine what happens if they enter the deer slightly sideways.

[41 mag]

I'm of the opinion that deer are thin-skinned and really don't require coc broadheads for complete pass-thrus especially at average bow ranges under 30 yards, Muzzys,Thunderheads, and Wasps have killed a lot of deer. I've shot a wide variety of expandables and fixed blade heads and am currently shooting a 100 grn low profile head with a sharpened chisel point, the blades are solid and .030 so no give on contact with ribs,etc. With 9 grn/inch carbons they really provide great pass throughs. I usually only draw between 57-63#, so not a lot of poundage is required.  At 10 yards shooting the set-up you describe, you should have had trouble finding the arrow on the ground on the other side or it will be buried a few inches in the ground.
I would say the 2nd shot hit bone. I usually watch FOC balance on my arrows and paper tune the whole set-up. Erratic arrow flight such as a strong right or left kick will really rob your arrows of energy and you can imagine what happens if they enter the deer slightly sideways.

Another great link for info on your arrows,
http://home.att.net/~sajackson/archery.html

Absolutely what I was talking about. Now I will not knock the Thunderheads as a whole as I know several folks who shoot them religiously, but that was the head my friend was shooting when he lost his buck. Yes in retrospect, we have figured that he hit the beef bone of the shoulder, in the area it tee's out. We did find the deer later in the season, only he was chasing does. I caught him out in the open once last year and so far once again this year. He is an awesome buck and if we meet again, I believe my friend will get his broad head back.

As for the arrow flying true, your spot on. I was haveing that issue with my previous set up. I ended up changing to a shorter head which helped out dramatically. I really don't like to get into brands as they are like underwear, everybody uses what fits them the best. My choices over the last two years have been varied, I have most of the Magnus tips, along with several other brands. I have for the most part hung with the COC concept with a lean towards the thicker blades. Granted, a whitetail shot through the ribs really doesn't pose much in resistance, but a hit to the shoulder blade, or have a big river bottom hog out in front and you want all you can get hitting them. If you are a little off, and do hit the shoulder blade the heavier blades will help hold things straight and hopefully break the shoulder and go on through. For the most part the heads I hit the woods with the most are 100gr Razor Tricks, Hellrazors, and 125gr Slick Trick Magnums which bumps me up a tad more but due to it being a slightly more angular blade and not a true COC head I still come out about even. 

Bringing up the heavier arrows again. IF your shooting an already quiet bow, adding some weight to the arrows will quieten it down even more. There is a balance you will have to reach for yourself with regard to speed-vs-weight. When I first got the FMJ's, I had the cut to 29" even. More so I could easily remember and make sure they were always cut the same. My Tomkat was only pushing them out at around 240fps, which still was more than adequate for deer and medium hogs, as long as they were hit in the ribs. With the new Admiral, and getting 270fps, that really jumps the penetration ability of the arrows to around 76#. (I posted the wrong data above.) Coupled smaller diameter shafts, and with the COC heads, for the most part I am wondering how far they will be stuck in the dirt the other side of the animal. However, should I screw the pooch so to speak on my part of the shot, I have a little added insurance that they will punch on through leaving two open holes rather than one plugged with part of the arrow.

As was mentioned the flight of the arrow will rob you of energy even if your pushing 400fps, if your arrow isn't flying true, you will still not have the energy of a slower lighter arrow that is flying straight.

I hope the info helps you out. The bottom line is use what you have confidence in, and shoot it well.

Good luck.

[ChrisK]

I usually always get a complete pass thru. I have four deer that I can think of that I didn't and three of them hit the spine but the arrow was sticking out the other side. Those were from a #72 bowtech blackhawk using a 27.5 goldtip 55/75 and spitfire and a #70 Elite Z28 using a 27.25 beman ICS 340 and a 125 grain thunderhead. My last one that didn't have a complete pass thru was with a #50 Dan Toelke 52 inch recurve and I was shooting a 29 1/2 beman mfx with 100 grain brass insert and 125 grain thunder head. My arrow passed thru but hit a tree that the deer was standing in front of and bounced back towards the deer. I don't know how it didn't stick into the tree. I shoot trainning wheels again now, just about all deer that I have used thunderheads and spitfires have died with in sight and left very good blood trails.
Chris Kiefner

[Big Nasty]

I have had very few arrows completely pass through. Conditions have to be completely right, and the mystical flight of the arrow has to be perfect as well. If your arrow is kicking or porpoising at all it will spend kinetic energy during penetration. I would do a paper tune on your bow and read the paper, see if you get three perfect cuts from the fletching. As heavy an arrow you are using what is the broadhead grain you are shooting, that could be a factor.

If indeed you only hit ribs on that buck and no shoulder a broadside hit or a quartering shot should make a complete pass through. Now here is some food for thought, mechanical broad heads I really don't care what kind or brand can and will hurt your energy upon penetration PERIOD. Anything that takes energy to deploy, expand, or even work properly uses energy, and slows things down it's simple physics. This even goes for RAGE especially RAGE; another personnel experience.

Find a good fixed blade broadhead you like and works good for you and don't look back ever. I know this from experience, I have had many different kinds of mechanical's fail and lost my deer with a good hit. Yes you do need to line up a vane with a blade and you should be good to go but test it don't take my word or anybody's word for it. 

Everyone's setup is different I don't care if they are the same everyone shoots a bit different TEST THEM. But the very first thing I would do is make absolutely sure your bow is tuned. If this is a venture you are having trouble with go to your pro shop and see if they can help. Most shops have a paper tune setup, not all but most. Your arrows may be flying great with field tips, and look great to the human eye during flight. The truth is at your speed you really truly have no idea if that arrow is doing funny things that will affect pass through.

I hope this helps, and keep us posted. I am glad to see you are getting the chances a person needs to become a great bow hunter, and never, never give up. Every deer that even gets a little bit close if it is one you don't want make it a learning experience, and see what you can get away with it could make the difference between a wall hanger and the one that busted you.

[Hunter Fishman]

I feel your pain brother.
I did the same thing this sept.
almost same set up to the tee. 8 yard shot, 70lbs, I was using muzzy 100's on easton STexcel 340 grn. with 4" fletching but I shot my deer WAY back on a perfect quartering shot entering in front of the hind leg stoping on the last rib on the other side without an exit wound. I didnt find him till 3 weeks ago ravaged by coyotes & some border jumper cut his head off & took it along with my arrow & left his tecate beer cans piled up with the remains under a bush.

I thought it might be the broadheads also... nope!  Maybe he tensed up when I shot & muscle squeezed the arrow preventing further penetration...I have no idea.
This is my first year bow hunting & love it so much I will have a hard time picking up a gun next year.
I'm hooked!
Bad shots are made but we cant let it get to us. We learn from it & move on. the sick feeling you probably got is how you know your an ethical hunter. pursuing your game until you find it,in my opinion makes you a true hunter weather you can recover any of it or not. At least you know then that your game isnt still running around with an arrow stuck in him suffering. great topic! I have learned alot from this.

[Big Nasty]

Last week I found a deer that I had stuck the first week of November. To make a long story some what short I had a doe come in just after first light and was a beautiful big doe standing broadside. My coffee had not even had time to get cold it was great. I stuck her and watched  her go. I stayed in my stand the rest of that morning hunt so I could maybe get another shot as I still had tags in my pocket. I new my shot was perfect and had no worries because I new she was just around the bend piled up. Once I decided it was time to gather her up and head home I went to grab her. Now hear is where it get sickening, I couldn't find her. I got on the phone called up a few friends and we started our search.

After an all day scavenger hunt we called it and I was let's just say very upset and that is putting it very very nice. Last week a friend of mine found her, after a hunt he said when we got to the truck I found your deer. I was dumbfounded, I said what are you crazy his reply was you ain't never gonna believe where she was. Turns out she was just almost exactly where I said she was going to be the day I shot her.

The deer had made a 15 to 18 yard circle into a uncut bean field and dropped dead. She was laying 3 rows of beans in, and was completely covered up. I had been walking right by her for darn near a month and never had any idea. I think the only reason we found her is that the beans had died and withered enough that she became uncovered. Her blood trail never one time went to the beans and it stopped before we could see that she had made a change in course from the timber. We searched the beans for a long time knowing that a deer will go anywhere, and could be anywhere.

I guess the moral of the story is just because your shot is perfect doesn't always mean the meat is in the freezer. It upsets me that she died and was not eaten by my family, but I feel a little better knowing that she is not and did not suffer and isn't a wounded deer that ran off to suffer and die a miserable death.

You can't let things eat at you no pun intended. If you are going to hunt crap happens it's part of it. Just don't or should I say do your best to make sure you do your part and live up to your end of the deal. Do everything you can to make sure you hunt FAIR CHASE AND BE AS ETHICAL AS YOU CAN.

HAPPY HUNTING AND GO MAKE SOME MEMORIES

PS. TAKE A YOUNGSTER WITH YOU IT WILL MAKE HIS/HER CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCE ONE THEY WILL NEVER FORGET.....   

[snapcrackpop]

So where did you hit her and how far did she go?

[Big Nasty]

Right in the back of her neck believe it or not exactly where I put the cross hairs, and she dropped right in her tracks.


See below in another post I answered this particular question incorrect.

[bilmac]

When the arrow comes off the bow it is flopping around. In a few yards it straightens out. You can see this when you are practicing. For me when I hit a bale at 10 yards it will penetrate LESS than when I hit one at 25. As to the 25 yard shot, sometimes an arrow will penetrate the spine, most times it won't.

[Big Nasty]

Snapcrackpop, I am sorry I answered incorrect. I have another post where that answer belongs. I hit the doe behind the left front leg with a quartering shot. She traveled about 40 yards total, but after 15 to 20 yards I lost sight of her due to a hill.

[Hunter Fishman]

Bad shots are made but we cant let it get to us. We learn from it & move on. the sick feeling you probably got is how you know your an ethical hunter. pursuing your game until you find it,in my opinion makes you a true hunter weather you can recover any of it or not. At least you know then that your game isnt still running around with an arrow stuck in him suffering. great topic! I have learned alot from this.

[quote author=Big Nasty
You can't let things eat at you no pun intended. If you are going to hunt crap happens it's part of it. Just don't or should I say do your best to make sure you do your part and live up to your end of the deal. Do everything you can to make sure you hunt FAIR CHASE AND BE AS ETHICAL AS YOU CAN.


((GREAT MINDS REALY DO THINK ALIKE!))

[snapcrackpop]

.............. She traveled about 40 yards total, but after 15 to 20 yards I lost sight of her due to a hill.

40 yards?  Bummer.  I've seen heart shot deer go up to 120 yards, but typically a deer shot in the vitals are within 75 yards.  Amaizing how they can dissappear in little cover.


I was impressed with shooting Luminoks on my arrows.  It makes it easy to see the arrow in flight, and cool too!

[hunt-m-up]

I hit a doe too far back quartering away about five years ago and left her for a few hours because I knew it. She made a half circle and was only about 75 yards as the crow flies. She had to literally crawl up under a brush pile/blowdown to hide. We walked around the brush pile about 3X's trying to figure out where the tracks picked up again.

[Cottonwood]

It happens to the best of us, on shooting arrows that just for one reason or another don't completely pass thru, to many to count that have or haven't.

Make sure you keep your eye on the exact spont where the deer was standing, for what sign color of blood that may be present on the ground.  Then after you wait a while, make your tracking abilities work for you.  If you give your deer a reason to keep running they will, and then hide good under thick brush.  But if you give them time to just lay down and go to sleep, they will.

Heck, been doing this a long time, and still learning 

[Jacko]

Folks the marketing crowd have sold you a crock. Kinetic Energy is not the whole answer with arrow penetration and recommendations / laws created around Kinetic Energy as the sole indicator of arrow penetration are plain and simple misguided.

What hits with more authority a .223 shooting a 35 gr bullet at 3000 fps or a 45.70 shooting a 350gr bullet at 1500 fps. Dr Ashby's study mearly confirmed that momentum was one of about a dozen factors to acheive RELIABLE penetration while bowhunting and this does mean bone breaking penetration.The entire study is on Tradgang as mentioned earlier.

Starting at the Broadhead some of which has been mentioned before - 2 blade single bevel razor sharp cutting edges, the sharp tip modified into a Tanto type profile, at least 20% forward of centre balance point [ 25% is better] and now the bit that gets people cranky - 650 grains has been shown as the point where RELIABLE bone penetration is likely.

But due to the incredible performance of modern compounds and the fact that it's difficult for the average bowhunter to get arrows that heavy off the shelf fluff it a bit - 550 grains of arrow weight and as small a diameter shaft as spine will allow makes a better minimum I'm comfortable with compared to the too light arrows most modern Bowhunters use

Its a quantum shift in thinking from the hype that surrounds modern compound performance created by the marketing crowd and going back to what our forefathers tried and tested over thousands of years. Lets face it speed sells

Yes a modern compound  develops greater kinetic energy than any type of Traditional bow for the same draw weight so why not utilise that energy potential to develop more MOMENTUM energy as part of your hunting kit. Assuming a modern bowhunter's equipment is tuned and matched, perfect arrow flight, has sights fitted on his bow etc  and they are skilled enough to judge distance accurately or even use a range finder the argument about light arrows and distance judgement mistakes is mute. A faster arrow is also a lot less forgiving than a slower one given most bowhunters are not machines

If a Stag is at 40 yards put that pin behind his shoulder and drop a 550gr plus arrow with the atributes as mentioned into the spot. The arrow will have a much higher chance of smashing through that shoulder bone into the vitals or piercing ribs than your 430 gr 8% FOC multiblade equipped arrow, your bow will be under less stress and quieter to boot

regards Jacko

[Empty Quiver]

Dr. Ashby's study will reveal all.  A good article in the recent issue of Traditional Bowhunter penned by Ashby. Having said that, your current rig ought to have performed better.

My first thought is the arrow was not yet flying true. This is much more important than most can imagine for penetration. Paper test your outfit from 5 - 25 yds and work to get bullet holes. Arrow spine, fletch selection, rest used, nock orientation on the shaft, string nock placement, cable guard, everything must be confirmed as optimum. Get a can of spray on powder deoderant and use it all over the bow where an arrow could conceivably touch. Start shooting and see where powder rubs off first. If nothing is found move to arrow, if rubbing is found it might be an arrow issue as well, due to spine being close but not dialed in perfectly.

Second thought your broadheads are not swept enough. They look like razor blunts. Historically three to one length to width has been the rule if penetration was a factor in broadhead selection. Our forefathers weren't idiots they tinkered with gear as much or more than we do. No CAD CAM for them they forged something and went out and shot carcasses, real meat and bone with real arrows.

Most traditional archery "rules of thumb" came when 50# recurves ruled the earth. 173 fps was very common, they learned to make the best with what they had to work with. Advancements are great but tempering with wisdom is a good thing too. 

[Anonym]

Never had a pass through problem on the deer I've shot with my bow.  Of course, I've only bow hunted for 2 years and harvested 2 deer, but both were complete pass throughs and quick recoveries.  I hunt with an Oneida Stealth set about 65 pounds and shooting around 265 fps.  Not a barn-burner, but definitely gets the job done.

I read through Ashby's reports and decided on a Steel Force Phat Head.  Super thick blades, razor sharp, cut-on-contact w/ tanto point, and a very nice guarantee.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but the arrow shouldn't be "flopping around" in a properly tuned bow with center-shot riser.  Granted there is some flex to the shaft, but nothing that should compromise penetration out 30 to 40 yards.  It was much more noticeable out of older equipment that didn't have the deep shelf cut-out and you had to tune arrow spines to bows.  Could this be the problem?  A poorly tuned bow has a hard time pushing an arrow through anything if the arrow is flying sideways.

[Ron 1]

i would shoot thru a sheet of paper at 5 yrds  and then 10 yrds  look at the way the arrow rips the paper. this is called paper tuning you are tryin for bullit holes not big rips in the paper. it makes all the differance move the rest twards the rip. 

                               rw

[Gene R]

I agree with arrow flight theory. Shoot through paper and tone it in until you are shooting bullet holes.

A lot of people are killing deer with bows from 40lbs - 60lb draws, Ted Nugent is only pulling 50lbs and kills everything.

I personally have my bow set to 64lbs and have shot complete pass throughs as far as 60 yards using Beeman 340 and 75 gr Muzzy at about 290fps. I admit that I am changing to 100gr Muzzy but I really cant explain why except for one shot that the neck bone stopped my arrow, and the 8pt ran about 400 yards. But that was a bad shot.....Me not the set up.