Author Topic: French Mountain Howitzer-what is cloverleaf mark? (Read 2106 times)

cannonmn · « **on:** November 18, 2009, 09:16:53 AM »

This is a privately-owned French mountain howitzer I photographed many years ago and just ran across the photos again. I have basically two questions:

1. The piece is named "Le Rapp." What does that mean-is it a noun?

2. There is a cloverleaf mark on the rimbase and also on the muzzle. What's that mean?

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/miscforumsetc/forums49/?action=view&current=a6fa13a8.pbw

BoomLover · « **Reply #1 on:** November 18, 2009, 01:30:38 PM »

Nice Howitzer! Can't help you on the markings, sorry...

thelionspaw · « **Reply #2 on:** November 18, 2009, 03:36:04 PM »

Other than "Le Rapp" being the name of a hotel in France, it doesn't seem to translate into any language I can find but you probably knew all of this. Clover beats me too. I think it's a bad rapp

GGaskill · « **Reply #3 on:** November 18, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »

What is the cypher?

cannonmn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 18, 2009, 04:57:45 PM »

Quote

What is the cypher?

Louis-Philippe

subdjoe · « **Reply #5 on:** November 18, 2009, 05:02:20 PM »

OK, some hints maybe. Le Rapp hotel in in Alsace. Rapp is a German surname. Could it maybe have been named "Le Rapp" for that family if they had it commissioned? The arms associated with Rapp do not have a trefoil anywhere in the achievment, although it may have been a badge. The position of the trefoil suggest to me some sort of inspection mark, not an owners mark.

Were there a French or German arsenal that used a trefoil as its mark?

cannonmn · « **Reply #6 on:** November 18, 2009, 05:42:51 PM »

Quote

Could it maybe have been named "Le Rapp" for that family if they had it commissioned?

No families got involved with the production of military ordnance, in terms of "commissioned" if I understand what you meant. The government foundry (in this case Douai) got orders to produce so many of a particular model, and someone at the arsenal I suspect invented names for each gun. I've never been able to find out anything about the tradition of naming guns as far as who decides on the name and why that name. I tend to think it worked a little like street names when a new subdivision is being planned.

"Let's see, ok the subdivision name is "Green Forest" so let's have a maple street, oak street, elm, ash, hickory, and..."

RocklockI · « **Reply #7 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:05:28 PM »

yea "......... Elm , Ash , Hickory...." But for the the life of me .....what is a Sherri Mar ?

Some fool is getting paid money to name these streets ..........I'm Jealous ... !

subdjoe · « **Reply #8 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:18:44 PM »

Quote from: cannonmn on November 18, 2009, 05:42:51 PM

Quote
Could it maybe have been named "Le Rapp" for that family if they had it commissioned?
No families got involved with the production of military ordnance, in terms of "commissioned" if I understand what you meant.

Maybe 'sponsored' would have been a better word. Kind of how in WWII there were fund drives to buy fighters, which were then named for that city - one that comes to mind is "City of Healdsburg" (california), a P-47-D.

Ah, well, it was a thought.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:26:28 PM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 18, 2009, 06:05:28 PM

yea "......... Elm , Ash , Hickory...." But for the the life of me .....what is a Sherri Mar ?

Some fool is getting paid money to name these streets ..........I'm Jealous ... !

Spanish for Brandy Sea

cannonmn · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2009, 12:15:28 AM »

I put my question on a French discussion board to see if anyone there might know. I put my question about the model of "Consulaire" on the same board.

http://forums.ebay.fr/thread.jspa?threadID=500071450&tstart=0&mod=1258580786837

thelionspaw · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2009, 06:04:06 AM »

http://oldguns.net/q&a8_04.htm

Scroll down to #6357

$:-\$

cannonmn · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2009, 08:47:59 AM »

Thanks Richard. I used "search" and found it since the thing didn't seem to scroll that far. What I got was:

Quote

2. Aug 2004 Questions And Answers
Size: 56 kb; Last updated 16 Sep 2009
# 6357 - Fenian Raid Bridesburg Musket 8/7/2004 Jonathan, Burlington, VT Bridesburg - 1864 - 58? - 36'' - Don't Know - Has the marking of a 3 leaf clover with an I and an R on either side of the clover. The marking is on the left side. It has a eagle with a shield holding arrows on the right side. It also has the attached bayonet, with 12+ rounds unfired This gun was hanging in my wife's farmhouse on the Canadian Border where the Fenians battled. The story passed down is that they took over the ...

So now I guess i need to blow up the pic of the 3LC on the cannon and see if there's an I and R on either side of it. Maybe that stands for "Irish Republic?" in that case?

RocklockI · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:18:27 PM »

Brandy Sea !

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:47:13 PM »

Quote from: RocklockI on November 19, 2009, 01:18:27 PM

Brandy Sea !

Correct Sherri (Sherry) is a fortified wine, fortified with Brandy

Mar is spanish for sea.

Brandy Sea!!!

RocklockI · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:52:15 PM »

I'm setting sail right now !

Thanks ,seriously i bought this house 28 years ago brand new and Sherri Mar bugged the heck out of me .

WHAT is it ...? Now I know .....and I like it ..... Hail SHERRI MAR !!!

Not French though right ?

Gary

dan610324 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2009, 01:54:13 PM »

ok gary now its time to stop drinking beer
from now you can only drink cognac

RocklockI · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2009, 02:25:49 PM »

Sounds good to me !

I still have some Sherri from over seas ! .........

I hear it is vintage 2000 ,a very good year !!! Green apples is the rumor grown on the distillers own land ....Good Stuff !

Gary

carronader · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2009, 09:43:35 PM »

must be a bronze caster's secret how to get sherry from green apples, and distilled ? but then the Irish have been getting away with selling Dental mouthwash as Whiskey for many many years.

dan610324 · « **Reply #19 on:** November 20, 2009, 03:22:30 PM »

the apples are both red and green
but just fermented, no still used for this
2000 was a very good year

the irish has at least invented one good thing , irish coffe

now Im sure there is a scotsman who will tie me up in front of a cannon

but be sure that it is a beautiful bronze pieze and not any cast iron cannon
just the best is good enough

carronader · « **Reply #20 on:** November 20, 2009, 10:38:23 PM »

Only the best Dan.....no haggis boiler mortar for you.......or plain jane iron tube........see attached for some elegant examples..........brings a whole new meaning to " going Dutch "
I got a problem with the Irish coffee...........begins with the name.......but as I don't drink either of them, I suppose it's good enough for the less sophisticated palate.
Can't remember where I got these drawings, if you don't recognise them I got a file of similar will send you.
you be carefull with that Dan's brew Gary, is belly friendly but vicious on the head.

cannonmn · « **Reply #21 on:** November 21, 2009, 12:23:47 AM »

I'm guessing that drawing is from the paper by Guilmartin on guns of the Sacramento, you can find the whole paper by googling. It is a good one ot have on file, lots of detail about early bronze guns.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #22 on:** November 21, 2009, 10:47:13 AM »

Couldn't find "RAPP" representing a French word, slang, or abbreviation; did you get any feedback yet on your query to some real unadulterated French persons?

I then thought that it might be someone's surname, but that doesn't seem to make sense either; why would there be an article (THE) preceeding the name?

http://www.archive.org/stream/memoirsofgeneral00rapp#page/n0/mode/1up

cannonmn · « **Reply #23 on:** November 21, 2009, 12:49:03 PM »

BoomJ, a Swiss person I know posted this link on my E__y France discussion. It goes to info on Gen. Rapp. The only explanation I can think of for the format "Le Rapp" is that names for French cannons normally start with an article, particularly "Le." Then to have a cannon name like "The Rapp" wouldn't seem so strange I guess. As I mentioned in my ongoing French discussion about this, I have a list of the names of all the French guns in Invalides, and will post it when I find it. The purpose of examining that list is to see if other personal names are used as cannon names, and if so, the syntax used.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Rapp

GGaskill · « **Reply #24 on:** November 21, 2009, 01:13:19 PM »

Jean Rapp

After reading that biography, I can see why a cannon would be named Le Rapp.

RocklockI · « **Reply #25 on:** November 21, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »

Quote from: carronader on November 20, 2009, 10:38:23 PM

Only the best Dan.....no haggis boiler mortar for you.......or plain jane iron tube........see attached for some elegant examples..........brings a whole new meaning to " going Dutch "
I got a problem with the Irish coffee...........begins with the name.......but as I don't drink either of them, I suppose it's good enough for the less sophisticated palate.
Can't remember where I got these drawings, if you don't recognise them I got a file of similar will send you.
you be carefull with that Dan's brew Gary, is belly friendly but vicious on the head.

This is 'toasting' only sherri . Red and green apple Dans Vintage 2000 ! I let the girls at a local liquor store sample a taste . "..it was a balenced , wine , not sweet , apple taste , very drinkable , STRONG ."

I was looking for ",,,,....Ohh ! it was very nice sherri , WOW !!! it is good stuff !

BUT these are not beer drinking girls , well they are but ,when they talk about wine they go into a distant stare and become abit .......French...?

And say words like dry , nice, nice nose ,and bluster .....with effervesence to die for .

Oh BTW the Le Rapp ,should have been called Le Mullettt

Gary

cannonmn · « **Reply #26 on:** November 21, 2009, 02:23:21 PM »

Quote

should have been called Le Mullettt

Thanks, I knew there was a special name for that "do" but I couldn't retrieve it from the aging, partially petified gray matter. Rappster musta had the original mullet, or close to it anyway.

cannonmn · « **Reply #27 on:** June 10, 2011, 04:41:30 AM »

I thought I'd better check and see if anyone has come up with the answer to the second question yet-what is the cloverleaf mark for? Perhaps the French call that a trefoil but the leaves are a lot fatter than on trefoliage I'm used to seeing. If I had to guess I'd guess it was a proofmark for various things that had to be proofed or measured at acceptance. Perhaps the one on the rimbase is a rimbase squareness check. Perhaps the one on the muzzle is for proper bore diameter. Perhaps the very deep one on the outside of the chamber area is for powder proof test. Dunno.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #28 on:** June 11, 2011, 11:04:05 AM »

Sorry, nothing new to add, but I agree with you and subdjoe (09) in thinking that the trefoils are proof marks.

cannonmn · « **Reply #29 on:** June 14, 2011, 01:27:28 AM »

I need a bit more help, I can't figure out what the script letter "T" between the trunnions means. I thought it was the letter "C" but the folks on a French website showed me a chart of their old script letters and it is definitely the letter "T."

The one in Invalides in Paris has the same mark in the same place. Anyone know what it means?